Quote:IF Battlegrounds are implemented as Blizzard says they will be, they'll exist on all server types, meaning that Normal server players can get their PvP jollies all they want once they reach the end-game. If that's the case, you may ask yourself why bother with a PvP server when I can level up to 60 on a Normal and THEN go for the fights when I'm bored?

That's what I'm asking myself, too. With no honor or reward system, and a promise of a PvP raid area for all server types, I can't see any reason to recommend PvP servers to Lurkers. Although some of the advantages of PvP servers (as listed above) are *very* nice, they generally don't outweigh the nasty disadvantages.

Bolty,Dec 5 2004, 10:22 AM Wrote:Thus, PvP remains fairly pointless - from my months of play on the PvP server in closed beta, I found that 80-90% of all fights are unwinnable for one of the participants due to level difference, and actual PvP fighting really has no point because nothing is gained by either side.
[right][snapback]61960[/snapback][/right]

Bolty,Dec 5 2004, 11:22 AM Wrote:I'm very glad that I recommended to my fellow Lurkers to stay off the PvP servers at retail.  See link:

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.a...al&T=178465&P=1

While the honor system is actually in the game manual, it will never be implemented.  Therefore, the ganking and griefing will be very prevalent on these servers, and it's just not worth it.  Blizzard continues to say that Battlegrounds will be on ALL server types, so you can still get your PvP action on a Normal server.

Thus, PvP remains fairly pointless - from my months of play on the PvP server in closed beta, I found that 80-90% of all fights are unwinnable for one of the participants due to level difference, and actual PvP fighting really has no point because nothing is gained by either side.

Of course, there are many players who, hoping for an honor system to be implemented post-release, started out on PvP servers.  That's a decision that, had I purchased on opening day, I would have struggled with as well.  Now that Blizzard has finally come forth and stated that an honor system won't be implemented that stops griefers, these players want out, and they can't transfer.

I had written in my Server Type Decision thread:
I hope some of you took my advice and aren't stuck on a server that will get pretty nasty in a month or two if you're not one of the level 50+ chars out there.  Even still, adventuring in areas such as Stranglethorn Vale just isn't interesting when you can't quest without being attacked all the time, especially when going to town.

In the end, PvP servers will simply be PK and griefing servers, and it's a shame.  Based on the initial statements from Blizzard, I had high hopes of an exciting gameplay style that would make the levelling up process more interesting, but I know from my beta days that the interesting moments were too few and far between.

-Bolty
[right][snapback]61960[/snapback][/right]

Tyren, Blizzard Poster Wrote:We feel that the honor system that will eclipse the need for a PvP penalty system. If you can get rewards, and rank from killing a similar level character, why waste time killing lower level characters?

Artega,Dec 6 2004, 12:29 AM Wrote:What, exactly, does this mean?  The post referenced seemed to indicate that there would be rewards for PvP, but no "honor system" to prevent those rewards from being reaped by camping lowbie areas (i.e. take your LV40 character slaughter everything in sight at lowbie areas.)  Is this what they were referring to?  If so, I'm definitely ditching PvP servers.

NuurAbSaal,Dec 5 2004, 11:57 AM Wrote:Mongos take on things would interest me greatly too :)

bolty Wrote:While the honor system is actually in the game manual, it will never be implemented.

Quote:The introduction of a PvP penalty system opens the doors to many "what if" situations.

Lets say theres a mass PvP raid with players of all levels. Are you forced to watch who you are attacking for fear that killing those players will result in a penalty?

What if a lower level player is walking around buffing players who do not have a PvP flag. So lets say he sits there and buffs people prior to fights and after they rezz. You cannot touch that person because they are not flagged for PvP.

What if a lower level player decides it'd be fun to follow you around everywhere but not attack you to make a nuisance of himself.

The system is currently very wide open. But it's a more natural system of PvP, rather than try to figure out who you can attack and who you can't and what are the consequences.

Quote:

Quote:How about adding a deity (and resultant deity faction) for every race where each deity has the power to remove a portion of a character's experience (and even lose a level) for defying that deity by engaging a sufficiently lower-level player. The only time this wouldn't happen is if the low-level player (or his group) attacks the higher player.

True, it would be the only source of losing XP, but I can guarantee you people would think twice before engaging...unless they want to be level 1 again... :)

This would effectively discourage any average player from participating in raids, for fear that during large fights they kill a player out of their range. A group of very low level players could harass higher level players who cannot attack them for fear of either losing EXP or if they attack the lower level player, getting attacked back by other lower level players who could kill him with impunity.

Quote:

Quote:Tyren,
See this is where tweaking comes in...IF that lowbee gets invovled in the raid he should be marked as honorable points maybe very little but worth killing even for 1 point. Create a level range for the the color system.

If I am solo and get caught in the middle of two big parties going at it....i should be that odd ball discolored name that shouldnt be targeted...lets say GREY.....and all red names are Honorable kills. The second I heal or attack a member in a PVP situation my name should go red for the duration of my time in that zone till death or leaving the area.

But then you introduce baiting.

Assuming you can see color codes in big fights (sometimes that's harder than you think), the lower level player will ALWAYS have to take initiative, since the average higher level player would never attack first for fear of a penalty.

Or, you could get a very low player with a very high level partner hiding in the wings. The low level player hits a passerby who retaliates and is now flagged for PvP. The high level partner swoops in and kills the passerby. Thus this would also be considered ganking.

Quote:The concept is that players believe a punishment system prevents "ganking". It does nothing of the sort. It makes the worst gankers think up and new creative ways to avoid the penalty system or cause penalties on the players they are targeting.

Quote:I've said this before, but the assumption that a penalty system will stop ganking, griefing, etc, is ill-conceived.

If a player is dedicated enough to camp your corpse and kill you repeatedly, a penalty system would not deter such a player.

The notion that we don't care about ganking is incorrect. Our point is that a penalty system does not address ganking. It only creates more avenues for exploitation.

Quote:In reality a penalty system gives rise to griefing and baiting. A penalty system would discourage PvP rather than make it more fair across the board.

Bolty,Dec 5 2004, 10:22 AM Wrote:Thus, PvP remains fairly pointless - from my months of play on the PvP server in closed beta, I found that 80-90% of all fights are unwinnable for one of the participants due to level difference, and actual PvP fighting really has no point because nothing is gained by either side.

Treesh,Dec 5 2004, 07:35 PM Wrote:Personally, I think a lot of this comes from the fact that there are still quite a few folks at Blizzard who are griefers themselves.  Not all of them left in the mass departures however long ago.
[right][snapback]61986[/snapback][/right]

MongoJerry,Dec 5 2004, 11:06 PM Wrote:I've also experienced a lot of the commraderie that both you and I have mentioned that comes from complete strangers looking out for one another.  For example, a level 34 warrior attacked my level 30 priestess in Thousand Needles today.  I did pretty well but was obviously going to barely lose (possibly a mutual death), and then a level 24 undead warlock came along, feared the warrior, and tipped the scales in my favor.  And I've experienced the fun that comes from walking upon a fight scene and tipping the scales in favor of someone else.

[right][snapback]62012[/snapback][/right]

MongoJerry,Dec 5 2004, 11:18 PM Wrote:I'm going to have to pull one of these on you, Bolty. Did you actually read the post you're commenting on? There's lots of stuff there about an upcoming honor system.

However, I gather that what you mean is that you wanted a dishonor system to punish high level characters for killing low level characters.
[right][snapback]62008[/snapback][/right]

Quark,Dec 6 2004, 10:37 AM Wrote:My point to the entire thread is: the EULA contains warnings about greifing and ganking, right?  There's a simple way to, if not prevent, then lessen greifing.  Ban/Suspend the accounts of griefers.  So do your part: report the griefers.  Bug Blizzard until they do something about a griefer.
Quark
[right][snapback]62039[/snapback][/right]

Malakar,Dec 6 2004, 09:23 PM Wrote:This might work for a few griefers, but not for most. It'd have to be based on the number of unique reports, so only the most dedicated griefers would get punished. Otherwise it'd open the door for abuse of false reports for account suspensions/bans.

So, it might help with the infamous griefers, but not with the random encounters with people much higher level than you.

Problem is, though, that Blizzard can only do so much manually. It might not be enough to make much of a difference given the massive numbers of players. If they were to automate it, that opens up the possibility of potential security issues. It'd be risky, what if there were security exploits that allowed someone to ban whomever they choose?
[right][snapback]62083[/snapback][/right]

Bolty,Dec 6 2004, 07:14 PM Wrote:You forget how many exploratory/see-everything type of players we have here, Mongo.  Without an anti-griefing system in place, that style of play simply can't be done.  You know, in closed beta I never finished quests in a number of areas because they were camped by griefers on a nightly basis.  I can only imagine the average Lurker's reaction after trying to complete the upper-end elite quests in the Redridge Mountains only to be ganked and corpse camped for five straight nights by griefers there.  It happened to me.  The same scenario played out in Duskwood, Hillsbrad, Alterac Mountains, and other zones.