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Defensive Stance - Ynir - 01-24-2005
Spangles is a lvl 50 warrior with an overall efficacy in combat of other classes that are 5 lvls lower.
She has good gear from quest drops, and a modest income from enchanting that lets her train in any of the arms, fury and defensive skills. Her talent points are scattered around, but that can be fixed eventually. She is usually trained to within a point or two of the max for the weapons that she uses at each lvl.
She knew going in that warriors have a bad time of it, but it is discouraging to know that, going into a difficult instance, it will take almost full attention from a healer to keep her alive because she cannot kill quickly enough. She relies too much on her first aid skills, and health potions.
Part of the problem lies with Blizzard, and there is offical recognition of this.
Part of the problem is that nobody seems to know or care how to fight with a warrior. A warrior is supposed to pull and hold the mob, allowing spellcasts and ranged attacks to provide heavy duty dps from behind.
What actually happens is that rogues and hunters assign to themselves the glamorous job of pulling. This takes the mob behind the warrior, who has to run back, reposition, retarget, work up rage, and start swinging. The fight is usually half over by then. The heavy dps is scattered, and directed in front of her where it is not useful to her.
Spangles has no way of convincing the dps monkeys to support her at point, so she has decided to take her place in back. There she can deflect the mob from the healers, who seem to have a special attraction for enemy AI.
She has worked out routines for arms and fury stances, but this job seems to call for defensive stance, and this is a mystery to her. She would greatly appreciate an explanation of how to set up an action bar for defensive stance, and how to use it for this specific mission.
Defensive Stance - Treesh - 01-24-2005
As a priest who runs with a defensive specialized warrior, defense stance does work and works quite well. I can always tell when Gnolack comes out of defensive stance because I have to heal him at least twice as much when he switches to battle stance and that's when I'm most likely to pull aggro (thanks to fade I can give it up again usually). He can usually get aggro quite quickly in defensive stance even if someone else does the pulling to start the fight. For the specifics, he'll have to post, but I've seen just how durable that crazy little gnome warrior is and he is so unbelievably easy for the healers to keep alive.
Defensive Stance - Tal - 01-24-2005
Ynir,Jan 24 2005, 04:02 PM Wrote:She would greatly appreciate an explanation of how to set up an action bar for defensive stance, and how to use it for this specific mission.
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When you switch to defensive stance the game gives you an almost empty toolbar. If you've been buying the defensive skills (such as taunt) you just drag them to that toolbar. Most of the skills that require the defensive stance will generate hate with taunt (tied to a small timer) being the most effective hate generating skill in the game.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with Hunters and rogues pulling mobs, you just have to be ready to pull the hate off them.
Defensive Stance - Concillian - 01-24-2005
Defensive stance is a huge shift in play style.
You are basically serving the function of being a punching bag. Also, the skills you use to generate threat are totally and completely different from what you use in the other stances for dealing damage.
Basically, you need to not use any skills that activate on next attack. Your next attack will generate threat just from attacking. The additional damage done often doesn't generate enough threat to be worth it. The only exception to this is cleave, but I still don't use cleave much.
You have to shift towards using instant attacks like sunder armor and revenge. Shield block mitigates some of the damage you take AND activates revenge. Although revenge doesn't deal much damage, it does seem to generate quite a bit of threat for only 5 rage.
Disarm is similar in that it reduces damage you take and generates threat.
Shield bash is essential for casters, try to let your group give you a bash instead of them silencing. Silencing seems to generate significant threat.
Taunt gives tons of threat, but only temporarily, it's generally used in either attracting attention of the pull target to YOU or getting a mob peeling off towards the cloth wearers back onto you. Just realize that if you don't attack it, it will go right back and you have to wait several seconds for the cooldown to finish.
It definitely requires healer attention, because you do kill significantly slower. However, the damage you take is WAY less than if a rogue, hunter, or mage has the mob's attention. WAY less.
Defensive Stance - Kevin - 01-24-2005
Gnolack is only L31 right now, and just put his first point in a tree other than protection, and that was put into deflection to up defense even more.
I use Cosmos, so I have the second bar up all the time, that bar holds sunder armor, demoralizing shout, battle shout, bloodrage, shield bash, cleave, challenging shout, intimidating shout and anything else that is usable in multiple stances. The main bar holds my defensive skills; revenge, shield block, disarm, taunt. Heroic strike and rend, while being available everywhere are on my main skill bar in both defensive and battle stance, on the same keys as well since they got put there early and I got used to them being where they are.
I also prefer using a one hander and shield to minimize damage even more. So most of my discussion of aggro will be from that perspective, and from what I have seen people seem to think getting and holding aggro like that is even harder.
I placed my talent points to get concussive blow as early as possible and this skill features pretty much as a second taunt skill for me. Sure it has a 45 second cool down but that is still a lot better than mocking blow. It can be used every fight because of fight lengths and time between combat without any problems. Stuns are great aggro tools though. And this is where shield block and improved revenge become your friends. Since revenge is triggered when you not the mob, block, parry or dodge you can make a revenge available whenever you want by using shield block. 15 rage (10 for shield block 5 for revenge) may seem better spent somewhere else, but I don't agree. With a 40% chance to stun for 3 seconds, as well as blocking the damage from two attacks as well as getting some free (though minor) damage, it works quite well and is part of the reason why I don't take much more than a HoT to keep me healthy, unless I have more than 3 mobs on me.
How do you get aggro if you don't pull or from an add or when things peel off to a squishy? Well Bloodrage, since you will have improved bloodrage from talents, is very handy at generating rage to do a sunder armor or concussive blow (or whatever else you want), which generates a lot of aggro. So you can bloodrage, taunt then sunder, though you may need to do one swing to have the 15 rage for sunder. If the taunt is resisted the sunder may very well pull it, a concussive blow will pretty much always pull it as well as stopping the damage to the squishy. You can then sit there and shield block and revenge and hold aggro quite well. Don't be afraid of bloodrage you already have a HoT on you I'm sure and that will completely overwhelm the loss of life and again if you put points in improved bloodrage which you will probably want to do to get last stand anyway, the penalty is even less.
At the start of the fight you can always stand back a bit and charge whatever was damaged in the pull and then thunderclap, demoralize shout, or sunder or whatever you like do with the rage to get the rest of the pulls attention before switching to defensive stance. If you have the extra toolbars charge in with your high DPS two hander and switch out to the one hander and shield later. Or stick with the higher DPS if the mobs don't hurt that much. I like to minimize the work of the healer and stun as much as possible, which takes a shield. Of course I will often put on my two hander in the middle of the fight to do a cleave and then put the one hander and sword back on as well. Takes some work, or a macro to do that but it helps.
Of course taunt is your bread and butter. If it is resisted a concussive blow, a revenge from something else that you were blocking or a sunder armor will do well to help you get the aggro, and of course taunt is a short cool down so you can try again when it is resisted. The thing you hit with revenges and you were beating on will follow you as you go pick up the other thing you want aggro on so you can switch back to it after you get your aggro. Cleave of course helps keep the other mobs that aren't being worked on stuck to you and generating a little rage as you get hit by them or block them. Keeping demoralizing shout up helps with that as well. Shield bash will pretty much always get you aggro from a caster if you interrupt them. Disarm doesn't seem to be a great aggro generator, though I still use it on any hard hitting mob to minimize damage.
Remember with taunt, using it early doesn't really do anything. However, using it later on is great. Rogue just did a 5 combo evis? Taunt, all that hate is now yours and you should be able to generate just as fast as the rogue does while the combo points are building back up. Mage did an AoE that pulled something off you? Taunt it, that hate is all yours now, and you probably did a little more damage to it as well when you went to get it. When taunt is resisted that can be a problem, but that is why I plopped two talent points into getting it back even sooner. And of course depending on if you had to use it already you have your concussive blow and/or disarm to mitigate damage if you do lose the aggro on a hard hitter, or maybe a little luck with a revenge.
Some things that I have not tested well enough but seem to work from observation. Blocking seems to generate aggro. Things that I have blocked but not hit have stuck to me when things that I have not hit were peeled by a big heal or AoE spell. That just makes the shield block revenge and whittle away method even better. Again this isn't well tested but a stunned creature seems to generate no hate to anyone while stunned. I have stunned a mob that had aggro on a priest, the priest then mind blasted the mob with a crit hit no less and the mob attacked me when it came out of the stun. It might be (though this is probably wishful thinking) that the hate a mob generates while stunned goes to the person who stunned it. Needs to be tested a more though. But I have never had problems holding aggro with something that I have stunned. I'm also suspecting that defiance generates that extra aggro for everything around you not just the mob you are beating on. It seems the more points I put in defiance the easier it is to hold aggro on things that I haven't touched.
Again the other advantage to this is the instant 10% damage reduction from protective stance, and all the extra damage stopping that shield block will get you, the drop in damage from the stuns (and revenge is usable a lot, unlike overpower) is also noticable. This means your priest is now healing you less and using the wand or shadow spells to help damage to make up for some of the lack a damage output. I'm of course planning on getting one handed weapon spec to generate even more damage.
I have held aggro against someone who was doing about 2.5 times the dps I was by just doing sunders, shield blocks and revenges without any trouble.
I hope some of that helps. I really enjoy playing a defensive spec warrior. I'm starting a build on a fury based dual weilder just to see what can be done in the other stances better. I find that I don't actually switch stances a lot, I end up in defensive most of the time and I'm probably missing out on somethings. I'm looking forward to getting berserek stance and intercept to help track things down but I don't have that yet.
Defensive Stance - stabby - 01-25-2005
I find that, at level 59, while in instace groups, I spend the majority of my time in Defensive stance, switching to Berserk stance every so often to hit things with whirlwind or intercept. Gnollguy has pretty much got the basic tactical bits down, but I have to add that Shield Discipline is a very handy talent once you get to level 40. It turns shield bash into another massive aggro skill, in addition to its existing properties, and does surprisingly good damage (at my level, it's approximately equivalent to a low-end Thrash Blade swing -- 100-125ish damage).
Another bit of advice would be to find someone that can make and/or apply shield spikes, and get the best one you can find for the best shield you can find. It may not seem like much damage, but every little bit counts, and when you're spamming shield block, it really adds up after a while.
Defensive Stance - Artega - 01-25-2005
The others have covered the basics, so I'll elaborate with my hotbar setups:
Battle Stance is (from 1 to = ): Overpower, Charge, Sunder Armor, Hamstring, Rend, Execute, Cleave, Demoralizing Shout, Battle Shout, War Stomp, Bloodrage, Death Wish
Defensive Stance is (from 1 to = ): Revenge, Shield Block, Sunder Armor, Piercing Howl, Rend, Shield Bash, Taunt, Demoralizing Shout, Battle Shout, War Stomp, Bloodrage, Disarm
Berserker Stance is (from 1 to = ): Attack, Intercept, Sunder Armor, Hamstring, Pummel, Execute, Whirlwind, Demoralizing Shout, Battle Shout, War Stomp, Death Wish, Berserker Rage
As you can see, I try to keep hotkeys the same for all stances where possible. Slot six (Execute/Shield Bash) is set to Mouse5 so I can quickly squeeze one off - this is vital to being efficient in PvP, especially with solo PvP. I've Executed people before they were able to drink their potion (which they should be drinking at 50%, not 20%.)
In group PvP, I try to not use Execute so I can use a Whirlwind or Cleave with Bloodthirst. Using Execute with Bloodthirst generates some really scary damage.
Defensive Stance - Ynir - 01-25-2005
Thanks very much for this analysis. I will use your essay as a mini guide and see if matters improve.
Could you list how your talent points will be assigned when your build is complete?
I read somewhere that talent points can be reassigned somehow, but dont know the details
Defensive Stance - Ynir - 01-25-2005
Thanks, this is very helpful.
How are your talent points assigned?
Defensive Stance - Ynir - 01-25-2005
Could you list your talent point assignments?
Defensive Stance - Zarathustra - 01-25-2005
Ynir,Jan 24 2005, 02:02 PM Wrote:Part of the problem is that nobody seems to know or care how to fight with a warrior. A warrior is supposed to pull and hold the mob, allowing spellcasts and ranged attacks to provide heavy duty dps from behind.
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I disagree. A Hunter can pull far more effectively than a Warrior. While you're right that a Warrior CAN pull, and you're welcome to do so, there's no indication that a Warrior is "supposed" to pull. In practice, I've found it's much more effective for a Hunter or spellcaster to pull a mob and then have the Warrior take aggro. YMMV.
Defensive Stance - Tal - 01-25-2005
Zarathustra,Jan 25 2005, 12:33 PM Wrote:I disagree. A Hunter can pull far more effectively than a Warrior. While you're right that a Warrior CAN pull, and you're welcome to do so, there's no indication that a Warrior is "supposed" to pull. In practice, I've found it's much more effective for a Hunter or spellcaster to pull a mob and then have the Warrior take aggro. YMMV.
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As a paladin I prefer hunters pulling mobs over spellcasters as the hunter can take a bit more punishment while I work to pull aggro. Though I've found that if the spellcaster pulls with a wand I can intercept the mob(s) in front of the party and quickly gain aggro. The only problem being if the DPS'ers start in too quickly. ;) Hunters are my choice for their greater range though. :)
As a warrior I prefer to pull as it puts me at the top of the hate list from the very beginning of the fight. My only problem is staying there. ;) Its rare though that I cannot pull aggro off a rogue or mage puller. :)
Defensive Stance - Tal - 01-25-2005
Ynir,Jan 25 2005, 12:17 PM Wrote:I read somewhere that talent points can be reassigned somehow, but dont know the details
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You can reassign talent points with any warrior trainer for a monetary cost. This cost does go up with each reassignment so as to prevent abuse. :)
Defensive Stance - Zarathustra - 01-25-2005
Tal,Jan 25 2005, 10:48 AM Wrote:As a paladin I prefer hunters pulling mobs over spellcasters as the hunter can take a bit more punishment while I work to pull aggro. Though I've found that if the spellcaster pulls with a wand I can intercept the mob(s) in front of the party and quickly gain aggro. The only problem being if the DPS'ers start in too quickly. ;) Hunters are my choice for their greater range though. :)
As a warrior I prefer to pull as it puts me at the top of the hate list from the very beginning of the fight. My only problem is staying there. ;) Its rare though that I cannot pull aggro off a rogue or mage puller. :)
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In my usual party, I'm the puller (and a Druid). Of course, this is only until our Hunter manages to catch up. What I've found is useful is to cast Faerie Fire as a pulling spell. It gainst aggro without doing any damage, and sets the enemy up to receive increased damage from the Paladin that's on an intercept course. He'll throw down a Consecrate and then it's all good from there.
Defensive Stance - Artega - 01-25-2005
Currently, I'm going for a 31/20 Fury/Arms build.
Cruelty - 5/5
Improved Demoralizing Shout - 5/5
Piercing Howl - 1/1
Unbridled Wrath - 5/5
Enrage - 5/5
Death Wish - 1/1
Improved Execute - 2/2
Improved Intercept - 1/2
Flurry - 5/5
Bloodthirst - 1/1
Deflection - 5/5
Improved Rend - 3/3
Tactical Mastery - 5/5
Improved Overpower - 2/2
Deep Wounds - 3/3
Impale - 2/2
Defensive Stance - Kevin - 01-25-2005
Ynir,Jan 25 2005, 10:17 AM Wrote:Thanks very much for this analysis. I will use your essay as a mini guide and see if matters improve.
Could you list how your talent points will be assigned when your build is complete?
I read somewhere that talent points can be reassigned somehow, but dont know the details
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Well I had been thinking about going like this:
Fury Mastery
Cruelty 5/5
Improved Demoralizing Shout 5/5
Piercing Howl 1/1
Fury Total: 11
Protection Mastery
Shield Specialization 5/5
Improved Bloodrage 2/2
Iron Will 5/5
Last Stand 1/1
mproved Shield Block 1/3
Improved Revenge 3/3
Defiance 5/5
Improved Taunt 2/2
Improved Shield Bash 2/2
Concussion Blow 1/1
One-Handed Weapon Specialization 5/5
Shield Discipline 1/1
Protection Total: 33
Arms Mastery
Deflection 5/5
Tactical Mastery 2/5
Arms Total: 7
Iron Will is there simply because I already put the points into it early. I have thought about swapping those to Toughness or Anticipation as I still get stunned all the time even with the 15% chance to resist it. Tactical mastery is up in the air as well since I haven't had a lot of issues with lost rage, but then again I don't switch stances a lot. I wanted 3 points in there, but I also like improved taunt.
The idea of the build though to to be able to stand around as long as possible while others do the DPS. I've thought about improved shield wall since that skill has already come in handy and since I want to get piercing howl sooner rather than later tactical mastery would end up being one of the last skills I got anyway. But that is what I was looking at.
Defensive Stance - Roland - 01-26-2005
Ynir,Jan 24 2005, 03:02 PM Wrote:Part of the problem is that nobody seems to know or care how to fight with a warrior. A warrior is supposed to pull and hold the mob, allowing spellcasts and ranged attacks to provide heavy duty dps from behind.
What actually happens is that rogues and hunters assign to themselves the glamorous job of pulling. This takes the mob behind the warrior, who has to run back, reposition, retarget, work up rage, and start swinging. The fight is usually half over by then. The heavy dps is scattered, and directed in front of her where it is not useful to her.
I play a Rogue. I have done several instance runs as a Rogue. I consider it my duty to scout and pull, and I do both VERY well. That you say a Rogue should not pull, that a Rogue who does will make it 10x harder for a Warrior to get and hold aggro, that you automatically put ALL the blame on a Rogue is not only insulting, but utterly foolish and misguided.
First off, A Warrior's job IMHO is NOT to pull. A Warrior has minimal ranged abilities and virtually NO crowd-control abilities, both of which are ESSENTIAL to proper pulling. A Hunter is probably the best puller, combining exceptional ranged attacks, strong HP, decent armor, and a pet to make the easiest pulling possible. A Rogue, OTOH, comes in second, FAR above any Warrior. We have ranged attacks (Thrown most notable, but Bows and Crossbows we can use, as well), Stealth (aside from a Mage casting Invisibility on someone, there's no one else who can move around undetected), and a plethora of crowd control and aggro REDUCING skills. As such, we are fully equipped to deal with pulling a mob, and then losing the aggro.
Now, let's analyze your observations, one by one. You state that a Warrior's job is to stand there and get beat on while everyone ELSE piles on the damage. This is wholly absurd. First off, Warriors are DPS machines. The only ones who can compete with them are Rogues and Mages - the former not being able to stand up to long fights due to medium Health, and the latter having to cast spells from afar. Warriors are specifically engineered to not only dish out damage up-close and personal, but also to absorb it all the while, taking the brunt of the abuse in any given fight. So your response that it is everyone else's job to dish out the heavy damage while a Warrior just stands there like a brick wall is patently absurd.
Secondly, you state that whenever a Rogue pulls (maybe ones YOU'VE played with, and if that's so then you have some BAD playing partners), the Warrior has to run backwards and attempt to peel off the mob from the Rogue, thus making his life that much more difficult. If a Rogue is played properly, there is NEVER a time where this will happen, period. The battle plan for ANY group involving a Tank and a Rogue should be to set up a safe zone (refer to the Hunter analysis at 8-Bit Theatre for more on this), clear of monsters and with enough room for everyone to maneuver around comfortably. You set up your Tank(s) in front, with your Casters and Healers in the far back, about 10 or so yards behind the Tank(s). This whole party remains about 20 - 30 yards behind the Rogue, who is up ahead scouting around while Stealthed, attempting to find the best target, and waiting for the proper timing to pull.
If the Rogue can pull a single mob, without worry of attracting any further attention, he should do so with a ranged Throw attack, and then run back to JUST behind or beside the Tank(s) (but NOT any further, as you do NOT want the mob getting close to the casters). He then should perform a Feint, while maintaining NO offensive action towards his target (a quick left-click while running from the mob will remove you from attacking it, thus allowing you to stand still while the Tank attempts to get aggro). The Tank(s)'s job is to sit tight while the Rogue does this, and once the mob gets within range, IMMEDIATELY pull out all his aggro-inducing skills and start whailing on the mob. Casters should, obviously, wait several seconds before unloading any heavy damage, as should the Rogue, although most Rogues can handle a few beatings without trouble AND can use Feint, Gouge, or Vanish to remove themselves from harm.
Now, if there are multiple mobs within aggro range of one another, the Rogue should wait patiently and observe their movement patterns. If it can be determined that they will wander outside of one another's aggro radius, then the Rogue should wait and attempt to pull whichever single mob it can. Otherwise, the best course of action is a quick Distract at short range, maneuvering close for a Sap on the secondary target (generally the target that poses the biggest threat overall, i.e. a Healer or Caster), and then turning and running back towards the party, following the same battle plan as laid out above. Should anything go wrong (it's VERY rare, but it happens), there is NO reason why a properly functioning group can't handle two or even 3 mobs, even with just ONE Tank, especially set up in the way I described above.
Quote:Spangles has no way of convincing the dps monkeys to support her at point, so she has decided to take her place in back. There she can deflect the mob from the healers, who seem to have a special attraction for enemy AI.
Stop right there. Your first sentence says it all - you can't "convince" your PARTNER to support you. You're playing with a bad crowd, which is skewing your view of other classes instead of pushing you to find skilled players to group with. That's your first mistake. Your second mistake, and it's a HUGE one, is where you say that you move back to where the casters are to try and pull the mob(s) off of them. That has got to be the most homocidal thing I have ever heard.
As a Tank, your job is to stand put and maintain aggro. If for any reason a mob breaks off from you, you are NOT to break combat with your current mob to engage the other. You ARE supposed to attempt to use your short-ranged aggro-inducing skills (you have Shouts for a reason; use them), while holding your ground and keeping your original target on YOU. If your original target was the only target you were facing, then and ONLY then do you EVER move to where the casters are, at which point you pull the mob off, and then THEY back off to a safe distance once more, while you stand still and hold the mob's aggro. But if there are multiple mobs, and one should break off from you and head for a caster, it is the ROGUE'S job to pull that mob off, NOT yours.
A Rogue has a wide variety of skills all geared towards controlling the flow of battle. It is our ONLY advantage, so we as a class are geared entirely around it. We may be known for being DPS machines, but it is our crowd-control abilities that any SKILLED non-Rogue player relies upon us for (I learned this the hard way in an instance run that ran into a small snag; I'll get into that later). We have Sprint to aid our movement, Gouge or Vanish + Sap to stun a target (provided no other targets are currently Sapped, as only one mob can be Sapped at any one time), Kick to interrupt casting (and potentially silence, with proper Talent investment), and a plethora of damaging skills that will very quickly pile aggro onto us. The only thing the caster has to do is STOP CASTING. Don't heal, don't cast damaging spells, don't do anything. Wait for the cavalry to arrive and pull the mob off you. A Mage firing off a Frost Nova, a Warlock casting Fear, or a Priest casting Psychic Scream are about the only exceptions to this. The overall goal is still the same, however: keep the casters in back, AWAY from the Tank, and let the Rogue control the flow of combat.
Once the Rogue has pulled aggro off the casters, it is up to HIM whether or not he can handle that solo mob by himself (and Healers come into play here; a Rogue is not nearly as sturdy as a Warrior, Paladin, or Bear-form Druid, so we may require at least some healing to survive). If he can, then by all means he should do so. The battle has already gotten way more complicated than it should have; no need to make things any more complicated and risk making matters worse. If, however, the Rogue cannot, for any reason, handle the mob solo, he should then quickly decide how best to handle the situation. If the target was Sapped (see above), then the target will be taken care of for at least 25 seconds, provided no one else does something stupid - like damage the mob. Otherwise, the Rogue's best option at this point is generally the same as the process for pulling. That is, the Rogue should draw the monster back into the Tank(s)'s melee range and then STOP inducing any aggro. Feint is specifically designed to do nothing BUT reduce aggro, while the Tank(s) has skills geared towards GAINING aggro which he should use.
Quote:She has worked out routines for arms and fury stances, but this job seems to call for defensive stance, and this is a mystery to her. She would greatly appreciate an explanation of how to set up an action bar for defensive stance, and how to use it for this specific mission.
I can't help you with that, as I have virtually no experience playing a Warrior, but hopefully my above comments will help you enough so that you don't have to dedicate yourself to any one style of play. A Warrior has three stances, each designed for specific instances and each designed to be used THROUGHOUT the career of a Warrior, not just in sparse patches.
I hope I wasn't too harsh, but I HATE it when some cocky Warrior automatically assumes not only that he is the God to pulling, but that whenever a battle goes sour, it's always the Rogue's fault. I'm not saying that, in your experience, the Rogue hasn't caused his share of problems, but that is ENTIRELY due to you playing with apparently horrendous players, and not due to any inherent weaknesses within yourself or any other class. That you actually bought into all that BS is just all the more saddening, so pardon me if I'm out of line in inviting you over to the Alliance Lurkers guild on Stormrage. I have a level 26 Rogue there, as well as a couple alts I play when I want something different, and our guild over there is quite strong and exceptionally friendly. Except for off-peak hours, it's rare that you won't be able to find someone to group with. I even have a couple Rogue builds I want to try out, so I could start up a brand new Rogue to help you out in getting started on the server. But, that's up to you, and I'd understand if you didn't want to move. Just try to find some better people to play with if you don't move, because your play experiences are just awful and depressing to listen to.
As a mild aside, I spoke earlier about a bad patch in an instance where I learned the hard way that it's up to the Rogue to pull mobs off a caster. We were going up against Van Cleef, and everything was going fine. I had thrown a Distraction in the room, attracting the attention of Cleef and his henchmen. I pulled the big VC with a Throwing knife to the face (he was none too pleased with this, and came out to tell me as much), the Tank (a Paladin, IIRC) immediately pounced on him and took aggro off me in a matter of seconds, and I was busy chewing him and his minions to pieces with my attacks. Where everything broke down was when he summoned up more minions, and they almost immediately went after the casters. I, foolishly, thought I should stay on VC, as I had always heard that the Rogue was a DPS machine and as such felt my place was at the Tank's side. This cost us one of our Priests (we had two), and the second was close to joining him, along with our mage. It's worth noting that the second Rogue in the party was almost useless throughout the instance run, and indeed caused more problems than solutions, but more on that a bit later. I think it was about then that we all decided to ditch and run, breaking for the edge of the boat so we could dive off into the water. I think it was this time that I actually made it to the water, but somehow miracously died upon hitting it (I didn't hit the ground, so no, it wasn't that - it was just some random bug, I think). Our Paladin survived, to my recollection, and one of our priests may have survived, but everyone else died (the other Rogue somehow lasting a full 30 seconds longer before biting the bullet; I have no idea where he was or what he was doing at the time, further testament to how bad he was), myself included.
A couple minutes later and we were all resurrected and getting ready for another swing at old VC, with one notable exception: it was my job to watch for his minions and keep them off the casters. Being that they were little more than Stealthing, beefed-up versions of mobs we had already fought on our way there, they didn't last long at all under my onslaughts, so our Priests and Mage survived quite nicely, leaving me to finish off VC with the Paladin and other Rogue. But it was a great learning experience for me, teaching me just one more place a Rogue has in the battle.
Contrary to popular belief, a Rogue's job is NOT to stand there and be a human buzz-saw, but instead to watch the battle as a whole and keep track of the flow of it so that I can interject myself to bring it under my control. In battle, the Rogue controls the flow of battle, letting everyone else play the more specific roles. Think of a Rogue as yourself while playing an RTS - the Mages are your heavy artillery, the Healers are self-explanatory, and the Tanks are the bulk of your offensive arm - while also adding in your own bit to the offensive front.
Oh, and one more thing: two Rogues do not make a Right, generally speaking. Unless you have to Rogues who can work in perfect concert with one another, controlling the flow of battle in unison like a well-oiled machine, it's generally better to have only one Rogue in any party. It's not that you can't have two Rogues together. It's just that, given the highly sensitive and micro-managing (or would it be macro-managing?) nature of a Rogue, having multiple Rogues in a party can very easily cause large, bumbling conflicts. It's all too easy for two Rogues to clash during a battle, especially if they have differing playstyles (personel-wise, not character-wise). A misplaced Throwing Knife, a poorly-timed Sap, a badly chosen Stealthing route, all of these and much more are just waiting to spring out on a party to ruin their day, and it's all amplified while doing an instance run due to the higher stakes. So, unless you know your group well or can trust that they will work well together, it's generally best to limit your party to one Rogue per, if at all possible. This rule bends somewhat when the Rogue IS your Tank, however, but that's a story for another day. ;)
Defensive Stance - Olon97 - 01-26-2005
[edit: split into 2 posts so quotes would work]
There is some overlap in the recent pulling discussion here with what was discussed in this thread on hunter pulling.
Let me first preface that when I'm playing my warrior with a group with good communication, I'm always open to having another player serve as the dedicated puller (on smaller sized pulls).
My problem in general with "baton pass" pullers, is just like a relay race, that extra step can be messed up (feign death can be resisted, presumably so can feint), leaving a rageless warrior in a rough spot (popping a rage potion is my default reaction to a failed pass-off). In a pickup group that mostly communicates with grunts and "hurry up!"s, I'm going to insist on pulling, and might not give the full treatise on why I prefer it. The bottom line is it's the simplest way to for me to get initial aggro without a Rube Golberg series of events. I'll put it in the oversimplified terms: "you pull, you tank".
Again, in a good group with good communication, I'm willing to dump the occasional rage potion and adapt because ultimately as long as the job gets done and people have fun, the exact tactics are secondary.
Quote:I play a Rogue. I have done several instance runs as a Rogue. I consider it my duty to scout and pull, and I do both VERY well. That you say a Rogue should not pull, that a Rogue who does will make it 10x harder for a Warrior to get and hold aggro, that you automatically put ALL the blame on a Rogue is not only insulting, but utterly foolish and misguided.Agreed that blaming any class for a pull gone wrong by default is jumping to conclusions. It's not 10x harder having a non-tank pull, but quite often it is harder. I'm glad you scout and pull well, but you may be expecting too much of others if you think strangers will be comfortable with a rogue as primary puller. All classes have bad players (esp. warriors) or even players who have the occasional mess up, but on average the least complex path to a given end (the end being the tank holding aggro on as much as possible) is going to be the one people prefer until they know their compatriots' capabilities.
Quote:First off, A Warrior's job IMHO is NOT to pull. A Warrior has minimal ranged abilities and virtually NO crowd-control abilities, both of which are ESSENTIAL to proper pulling. A Hunter is probably the best puller, combining exceptional ranged attacks, strong HP, decent armor, and a pet to make the easiest pulling possible. A Rogue, OTOH, comes in second, FAR above any Warrior. We have ranged attacks (Thrown most notable, but Bows and Crossbows we can use, as well), Stealth (aside from a Mage casting Invisibility on someone, there's no one else who can move around undetected), and a plethora of crowd control and aggro REDUCING skills. As such, we are fully equipped to deal with pulling a mob, and then losing the aggro.Sorry, I respectfully disagree, IMHO. Piercing Howl, an AoE daze is an excellent crowd control ability (so much so that I can't imagine building a dedicated tank without it, makes runners and mobs going after cloth classes much easier to manage). Sheep, one of the most effective CC options can be cast after the warrior initiates a pull. Stealth is a scouting issue, not a pulling issue, and can be replaced by familiarity with an instance (you don't need a scout if you already expect the patrols in their usual spots), and sap is situational - I generally only agree to sap as initial CC on pulls that have 0 chance of adds (usually bosses at the ends of rooms).
Quote:Now, let's analyze your observations, one by one. You state that a Warrior's job is to stand there and get beat on while everyone ELSE piles on the damage. This is wholly absurd. First off, Warriors are DPS machines. The only ones who can compete with them are Rogues and Mages - the former not being able to stand up to long fights due to medium Health, and the latter having to cast spells from afar. Warriors are specifically engineered to not only dish out damage up-close and personal, but also to absorb it all the while, taking the brunt of the abuse in any given fight. So your response that it is everyone else's job to dish out the heavy damage while a Warrior just stands there like a brick wall is patently absurd.As someone who plays a warrior specced to tank (unlike the many 1-59 warriors specced to solo/PvP) I almost laughed when you refer to the class as DPS machines. Our best aggro generating skills, shield block, revenge, sunder armor, and shield bash do minimal damage and as instances get rougher, a main tank will have little time or rage to do much else. When playing in tanking mode, I am unmistakably out DPSed by every other class in my party (including shadow spec priests who enjoy having to heal so rarely), but can often keep all mobs locked on me without the need for significant restraint by other party members. I suspect your experiences with warriors has been with players who don't really wish to tank, and therefore aren't terribly effective at it, but do better DPS as a result. The "wall" analogy is not absurd, it is how the class functions when the player behind the toon allows it to serve as such.
Quote:Secondly, you state that whenever a Rogue pulls (maybe ones YOU'VE played with, and if that's so then you have some BAD playing partners), the Warrior has to run backwards and attempt to peel off the mob from the Rogue, thus making his life that much more difficult. If a Rogue is played properly, there is NEVER a time where this will happen, period. The battle plan for ANY group involving a Tank and a Rogue should be to set up a safe zone (refer to the Hunter analysis at 8-Bit Theatre for more on this), clear of monsters and with enough room for everyone to maneuver around comfortably. You set up your Tank(s) in front, with your Casters and Healers in the far back, about 10 or so yards behind the Tank(s). This whole party remains about 20 - 30 yards behind the Rogue, who is up ahead scouting around while Stealthed, attempting to find the best target, and waiting for the proper timing to pull.Again, I disagree with your generalization about default warrior-rogue battle plans for similar reasons to my disagreements with the 8-bit theatre's hunter/warrior battle plan. I also agree with the points made by lemekim in the hunter thread which contradict this type of argument. I prefer the cloth wearers nearby so they are easier to pull mobs off of (I like to leave my toon's back to the pull facing the rest of the group so it is very easy to see what is on me and what isn't - as well as giving all other physical damage dealers the benefits of an exposed back). No argument about fighting in safe zones when they exist, although that is immaterial to the topic.
Defensive Stance - Olon97 - 01-26-2005
[edit: making quotes work]
Quote:If the Rogue can pull a single mob, without worry of attracting any further attention, he should do so with a ranged Throw attack, and then run back to JUST behind or beside the Tank(s) (but NOT any further, as you do NOT want the mob getting close to the casters). He then should perform a Feint, while maintaining NO offensive action towards his target (a quick left-click while running from the mob will remove you from attacking it, thus allowing you to stand still while the Tank attempts to get aggro). The Tank(s)'s job is to sit tight while the Rogue does this, and once the mob gets within range, IMMEDIATELY pull out all his aggro-inducing skills and start whailing on the mob. Casters should, obviously, wait several seconds before unloading any heavy damage, as should the Rogue, although most Rogues can handle a few beatings without trouble AND can use Feint, Gouge, or Vanish to remove themselves from harm.First of all, if a rogue can pull a single mob with a ranged attack, so can a warrior. If the warrior does it himself, he doesn't have to worry about a feint being resisted and has a head start on locking in. Honestly, I'm fine with a priest pulling a single pull - single pulls are not the situations that require particular battle tactics, there is plenty of room for groups to adapt to slight messups and taunt handles single pulls just fine.
There are also many single/small pulls that can only be achieved with proximity (edge of vision poximity, not charging to melee range) since aggro generated by any damage delt will link social mobs with a larger radius and stronger effect than sightline detection aggro.
Quote:Now, if there are multiple mobs within aggro range of one another, the Rogue should wait patiently and observe their movement patterns. If it can be determined that they will wander outside of one another's aggro radius, then the Rogue should wait and attempt to pull whichever single mob it can. Otherwise, the best course of action is a quick Distract at short range, maneuvering close for a Sap on the secondary target (generally the target that poses the biggest threat overall, i.e. a Healer or Caster), and then turning and running back towards the party, following the same battle plan as laid out above. Should anything go wrong (it's VERY rare, but it happens), there is NO reason why a properly functioning group can't handle two or even 3 mobs, even with just ONE Tank, especially set up in the way I described above.Oh lord, what you're describing is not what I would consider the best course of action in that scenario. Might work much of the time, but a slight slip up leaves a dead party member right where the mobs default to (hint: daze or root - pretty common in instances), meaning an attempted res will leave the healer with HUGE aggro that can't be peeled off without using extreme methods (challenging shout + retal is the only one I can think of). Multiple mobs should be pulled by the tank back to a safe area, CCd if possible and picked off as efficiently as possible (one by one if AoE can't do the job quickly).
Quote:Stop right there. Your first sentence says it all - you can't "convince" your PARTNER to support you. You're playing with a bad crowd, which is skewing your view of other classes instead of pushing you to find skilled players to group with. That's your first mistake. Your second mistake, and it's a HUGE one, is where you say that you move back to where the casters are to try and pull the mob(s) off of them. That has got to be the most homocidal thing I have ever heard.I see no mistakes there. I lock in aggro a main target and pull other targets off of cloth wearers on a regular basis. As I said earlier, I prefer the casters right next to me (though slightly further away from the pull). I think it is just as likely that your views on these matters are skewed by the crowd you're playing with.
Quote:As a Tank, your job is to stand put and maintain aggro. If for any reason a mob breaks off from you, you are NOT to break combat with your current mob to engage the other.Sorry, this may be true for paladins who can't hold aggro on multiple targets, but for a warrior dedicated to tanking (in attitude, gear, and talents) the latter sentence iis totally false. Breaking combat to engage other mobs is what a good tank should do constantly and this can be done without losing aggro on the primary target. I often request the group to decide on a "primary assist" (often a rogue) who they use the assist command on because if they do it on me they may target the wrong mob for focus fire. I don't consider my starting salvo done until each mob in the pull has at least one sunder or revenge on them (which will allow the healer to heal without gaining aggro).
Quote:You ARE supposed to attempt to use your short-ranged aggro-inducing skills (you have Shouts for a reason; use them), while holding your ground and keeping your original target on YOU. If your original target was the only target you were facing, then and ONLY then do you EVER move to where the casters are, at which point you pull the mob off, and then THEY back off to a safe distance once more, while you stand still and hold the mob's aggro. But if there are multiple mobs, and one should break off from you and head for a caster, it is the ROGUE'S job to pull that mob off, NOT yours.While I do agree that having the warrior moving around mid-battle is a bad idea, casters who gain aggro should move towards the tank, IMO (if they aren't already beside him). Any rogue who wants to assist in saving a cloth wearer is a hero in my book, and I'm more than happy to let them assign themselves the "healer bodyguard" role if I fail at my job of locking all aggro before the first heal. I'll eventually taunt that mob back from the rogue to reduce the healer's mana usage, however.
Quote:A Rogue has a wide variety of skills all geared towards controlling the flow of battle. It is our ONLY advantage, so we as a class are geared entirely around it. We may be known for being DPS machines, but it is our crowd-control abilities that any SKILLED non-Rogue player relies upon us for (I learned this the hard way in an instance run that ran into a small snag; I'll get into that later). We have Sprint to aid our movement, Gouge or Vanish + Sap to stun a target (provided no other targets are currently Sapped, as only one mob can be Sapped at any one time), Kick to interrupt casting (and potentially silence, with proper Talent investment), and a plethora of damaging skills that will very quickly pile aggro onto us. The only thing the caster has to do is STOP CASTING. Don't heal, don't cast damaging spells, don't do anything. Wait for the cavalry to arrive and pull the mob off you. A Mage firing off a Frost Nova, a Warlock casting Fear, or a Priest casting Psychic Scream are about the only exceptions to this. The overall goal is still the same, however: keep the casters in back, AWAY from the Tank, and let the Rogue control the flow of combat.Good advice for casters who get aggro, except for staying away from the tank. What you're talking about as rogue specific is true of any player who can generate aggro and take a few hits and who has good situational awareness. I like having a caster bodyguard in the group (plenty of classes can offtank), but for that job I'm indifferent between a DPS warrior or rogue or druid or hunter or whoever. If there isn't a caster bodyguard, a group of all casters and 1 warrior can still get the job done with sufficient aggro awareness.
Defensive Stance - Olon97 - 01-26-2005
[this is it I promise] :D
Quote:Once the Rogue has pulled aggro off the casters, it is up to HIM whether or not he can handle that solo mob by himself (and Healers come into play here; a Rogue is not nearly as sturdy as a Warrior, Paladin, or Bear-form Druid, so we may require at least some healing to survive). If he can, then by all means he should do so. The battle has already gotten way more complicated than it should have; no need to make things any more complicated and risk making matters worse. If, however, the Rogue cannot, for any reason, handle the mob solo, he should then quickly decide how best to handle the situation. If the target was Sapped (see above), then the target will be taken care of for at least 25 seconds, provided no one else does something stupid - like damage the mob. Otherwise, the Rogue's best option at this point is generally the same as the process for pulling. That is, the Rogue should draw the monster back into the Tank(s)'s melee range and then STOP inducing any aggro. Feint is specifically designed to do nothing BUT reduce aggro, while the Tank(s) has skills geared towards GAINING aggro which he should use.
Are you certain that feint is 100% effective? My understanding was that it could fail just as taunt can fail, in which case you may want to let someone take the mob off you when they decide they're ready and not insist on offtanking without the healer's consent. If the group is capable of controlling combat as they will, it should be up to the healer, IMO as to who should keep aggro on them and for how long. After all, they're the ones who have to do butt saving. I suspect the healers will very often prefer to have most aggro remain on a tank if the tank can hold it. No debate that a mob on a rogue is better than a mob on a cloth wearer. ;)
Quote:I can't help you with that, as I have virtually no experience playing a Warrior, but hopefully my above comments will help you enough so that you don't have to dedicate yourself to any one style of play. A Warrior has three stances, each designed for specific instances and each designed to be used THROUGHOUT the career of a Warrior, not just in sparse patches.No offense intended, but if you're offended by others telling you what you should and shouldn't do, perhaps you should extend the same courtesy to people who do have experience playing warriors. A lot of your all caps moments in the post referring to warriors I found annoying if not offensive. The best group is the one that adapts to the players' individual styles and finds effective combat tactics that still allow them to enjoy playing the game. I would be happy to let you pull if I were grouped with you, but I take offense at your generalities and have no intention of pushing random rogues into that role because of your take on optimal tactics.
Quote:As a mild aside, I spoke earlier about a bad patch in an instance where I learned the hard way that it's up to the Rogue to pull mobs off a caster. We were going up against Van Cleef, and everything was going fine. I had thrown a Distraction in the room, attracting the attention of Cleef and his henchmen. I pulled the big VC with a Throwing knife to the face (he was none too pleased with this, and came out to tell me as much), the Tank (a Paladin, IIRC) immediately pounced on him and took aggro off me in a matter of seconds, and I was busy chewing him and his minions to pieces with my attacks. Where everything broke down was when he summoned up more minions, and they almost immediately went after the casters. I, foolishly, thought I should stay on VC, as I had always heard that the Rogue was a DPS machine and as such felt my place was at the Tank's side. This cost us one of our Priests (we had two), and the second was close to joining him, along with our mage. It's worth noting that the second Rogue in the party was almost useless throughout the instance run, and indeed caused more problems than solutions, but more on that a bit later. I think it was about then that we all decided to ditch and run, breaking for the edge of the boat so we could dive off into the water. I think it was this time that I actually made it to the water, but somehow miracously died upon hitting it (I didn't hit the ground, so no, it wasn't that - it was just some random bug, I think). Our Paladin survived, to my recollection, and one of our priests may have survived, but everyone else died (the other Rogue somehow lasting a full 30 seconds longer before biting the bullet; I have no idea where he was or what he was doing at the time, further testament to how bad he was), myself included.Sorry for your VC experience, but my opinion is you're taking the wrong lessons from it. Many "tanks" at that level have not yet develeoped good tanking skills and are not doing the healer protection role as well as they can later on. Your views on this subject seem like they might be more accurate with paladin tanks (I play horde so I haven't seen their multiple mob control abilities first hand) and warriors who consider themselves "DPS powerhouses".
A couple minutes later and we were all resurrected and getting ready for another swing at old VC, with one notable exception: it was my job to watch for his minions and keep them off the casters. Being that they were little more than Stealthing, beefed-up versions of mobs we had already fought on our way there, they didn't last long at all under my onslaughts, so our Priests and Mage survived quite nicely, leaving me to finish off VC with the Paladin and other Rogue. But it was a great learning experience for me, teaching me just one more place a Rogue has in the battle.
Quote:Contrary to popular belief, a Rogue's job is NOT to stand there and be a human buzz-saw, but instead to watch the battle as a whole and keep track of the flow of it so that I can interject myself to bring it under my control. In battle, the Rogue controls the flow of battle, letting everyone else play the more specific roles. Think of a Rogue as yourself while playing an RTS - the Mages are your heavy artillery, the Healers are self-explanatory, and the Tanks are the bulk of your offensive arm - while also adding in your own bit to the offensive front.Nobody likes to be a one trick pony and nobody should have to be (including healers). Rather than locking in your strategies based off of a few initial instances and groups, I reccomend people stay a little flexible and adaptive to each party they join. It often helps to have one person directing the flow of the battle, and that can be the rogue, but the class isn't inherently blessed with leadership capacity. Personally, I defer to the healer's wishes as to who should direct combat (if anyone, many basin groups don't need a lot of direction).
Quote:Oh, and one more thing: two Rogues do not make a Right, generally speaking.Generally speaking perhaps, but I've done plenty of instances with double rogues and not found it to be a problem at all.
Ultimately, the best advice for grouping is communicate with your group and try to solve problems rather than play the blame game.