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A Rogue Mini-Strategy Guide - Roland - 01-25-2005
After several hours of typing and rough editing, I'm presenting my first rough draft of a strategy guide I wrote about a specific Rogue build. I'm finding that I like Rogues a great deal. Their incredible versatility and diverse Talents and abilities, combined with their insane damage and the ability to string together different combos, all flow together to make a character I truly enjoy playing (at least as much as I enjoyed playing a Paladin in beta). Because of this, I spend a good deal of time developing potential new builds to try out, testing out Talent point placement and trying to build up a character around a specific theme or two (which usually works quite well, given how the Talent trees are set up). It can be very difficult at times, and often requires going back over each build several times (occasionally scrapping it almost entirely and starting anew), but I generally can come up with a build that I feel not only suits my hunger at the time, but also will be completely viable for day-to-day play, even for the casual player (perhaps especially so!).
So, it is with great pleasure that I present to you my first Rogue guide (second Rogue build to survive the drawing board; the first is my Poison Rogue). Please post your questions, comments, suggestions, nitpicks, etc. in this thread so that I may expand and improve this guide. Although I don't see this guide growing much in size, any useful information to be added will certainly be considered (I intend to make a whole booklet of potential Rogue builds, to build upon a larger Rogue guide that I want to make; we'll see if any of it pans out).
Enough chat. Let's get to the guide! :D
Introduction
Before I begin, let me first explain what this short guide will entail. This guide is geared towards explaining a very specific build that utilizes some of the more powerful but underrated skills in the Rogue arsenal. Wielding big swords or heavy maces will NOT be a focal point to this setup, so if you're looking for your typical SS + Eviscerate build, look elsewhere. The Subtlety Talent tree will see a lot of heavy investment, with only average investment spread across the remaining trees. Because of this, you're going to have to learn to play a Rogue like â well, a Rogue! Think old school DnD Rogues: lurking in the shadows, stalking your prey, creeping up from behind to deliver that critical blow that will knock your opponent out in a heartbeat â and then throw some very interesting twists into it. That's what this Rogue is going to look, feel, and play like. So, let's get introduced to our new Rogue.
The first thing any good Rogue need is a proper layout of skills, or Talents. Without these, they are mediocre at best, like all characters without Talent investment. Talents form the backbone of just what your Rogue will become, so we're going to be spending a fair amount of time analyzing all the choices laid out before you. Let's begin.
Talents
Assassination Talents (13):
Malice â 5 points
Increases your critical strike chance by 5%.
5% increased Critical Strike chance may not seem like much, but keep this in mind: it works for ALL your skills and attacks that deal damage. A critical strike boosted Ambush or Eviscerate is a mind-blowing sight to see, especially at higher levels.
Improved Slice and Dice â 3 points
Increases the duration of your Slice and Dice ability by 45%.
45% longer Slice and Dice means 45% longer you don't have to worry about refreshing it. To put it into better perspective, at Rank 2 with 5 combo points, this skill will boost your attack speed by 30% and last for over 30 seconds. That's a lot of time to be chewing up your target, and it blends especially well with a few skills I'll mention later on.
Lethality â 5 points
Increases the critical strike damage bonus of your Sinister Strike, Gouge, Backstab, Ambush, Ghostly Strike, or Hemorrhage ability by 30%.
Quite simply, for any critical strikes with the above skills, it'll add 130% damage, instead of just the usual 100%. That's 230%, or 2.3 x your normal damage when you crit, but only with the above mentioned skills. This skill is a very nice bonus, as 4 out of the 6 skills listed will be part of your main reportoire (with Gouge being for situational use and Backstab being mostly for party-play). Even so, these 5 Talent points could be placed elsewhere if you so chose, as I will note below.
Potential Variations:
Lethality is really the only optional skill here, in my opinion. You need 5 points in the Assassination tree just to get to Improved Slice and Dice which, while both Talents could be skipped entirely, will be one of your main-use skills, and certainly your first Finishing Move. Remorseless Attacks could be useful, as you should be chewing through mobs quite rapidly, but it's use is somewhat more limited by its relatively short duration â 20 seconds. Often times you'll only be soloing 1 â 2 mobs, tops, so 20 seconds is not a whole lot of time to hunt down a new target, especially when Stealthed (which you will very often be). Improved Eviscerate only gets you 3 of the required 5 points to hit Improved Slice and Dice, and although the latter could be skipped, I highly recommend against it. That's pretty much it for the Assassination tree, as it doesn't have a whole lot to offer us given our minor investment in the tree.
Combat Talents (5):
Lightning Reflexes â 5 points
Increases your Dodge chance by 5%.
As with Malice, 5% doesn't sound like very much, but it really adds up, in ways critical strikes don't always. It's not unusal to get up to 25% or higher Dodge without any other bonuses, and 25% Dodge rate means 25% less damage overall you'll be taking. It also means a 25% higher chance (just over 11% total) to gain a free combo point from Setup, although that will be explained later. Dodging is never a bad thing, and given that you can only wear Leather armor, no shields, and have average health, you'll want all the saftey cushion you can get. Even a whirling dervish like you will get hit sometimes, and anything that reduces that chance is worth taking.
Potential Variations:
None. This tree offers virtually nothing for you, especially in the first tier, and later tiers require far too heavy an investment to make it worth your while. Stick your 5 points in Lightning Reflexes and move on.
Subtlety Talents (33):
Master of Deception â 5 points
Reduces the chance enemies have to detect you while in Stealth mode. More effective than Master of Deception (Rank 4).
Maxing this skill is practically a must. There's nothing worse than sneaking up on an enemy from behind, trying for that opening Ambush, and getting caught â except getting caught while scouting a heavily populated enemy territory.
Camouflage â 5 points
Increases your speed while Stealthed by 15%.
This skill is self-explanatory. Even at its highest Rank (Rank 3), Stealth mode still drops you down to 70% movement speed. This Talent brings it up to a comfortable 85%, effectively halving the penalty you would normally suffer. Faster movement while stealthed makes for easier scouting and positioning for using your skills (like Ambush).
Opportunity â 5 points
Increases the damage dealt when striking from behind with your Backstab, Garrote, or Ambush abilities by 20%.
Also very self-explanatory. Ambush, your main opening skill, gains a 20% boost to its already impressive damage output, and if I'm not mistaken this works for both the fixed damage adder and the weapon-based percentage damage, effectively giving you 270% + 1.2X damage from the skill. More damage is always a plus, and that extra boost will doubly shine if you score a critical (which will happen often enough to be noticeable). Garrote you probably won't ever be using, and Backstab is really only good in parties, and even then is not a focus of this build, so the investment is truly geared towards boosting Ambush (for this build).
Initiative â 5 points
Gives you a 75% chance to add an additional combo point to your target when using your Ambush, Garrote, or Cheap Shot ability.
Much like the previous skill, this is all about boosting Ambush â your staple opener â only this time with a very impressive twist: an additional combo point. A 75% chance to get 2 combo points out of a single Ambush (much like Garrote, Cheap Shot is not only a wasted opener, but is over-shadowed by another skill, and getting 2 points from Ambush versus 3 from Cheap Shot is not worth the initial damage tradeoff) is an awesome ability indeed, allowing you to fire off that Slice and Dice that much sooner, and bring about a very quick death to your target.
Ghostly Strike â 1 point
A strike that deals 125% weapond damage and increases your chance to dodge by 15% for 7 sec. Awards 1 combo point.
Much like Ambush, this deals an increased percentage of your weapon damage, but unlike any other offensive skill, this one has a defensive (and, with proper support, utility / offensive) bonus: 15% higher dodge for 7 seconds. A critical strike with this skill will take a huge bite out of your target (remember the 40% bonus from Lethality?), while simultaneously making you much harder to hit. As if your normal Dodge chance wasn't high enough (remember how I said 25% was easily obtainable?), you now just made yourself a super-charged evader while dishing out damage in the process. A very good emergency skill, especially if Evasion's cooldown is still winding down. On top of that, this skill blends wonderfully with another Talent further in the tree, but I'll get to that in a bit. For now, just marvel at being a near-unhittable damage-machine, like something out of a kung-fu movie.
Improved Ambush â 3 points
Increases the critical strike chance of your Ambush ability by 45%.
Simply put, almost 1 in every 2 Ambushes you pull off will critical. Combine this with Lethality, Opportunity, and Initiative, and you have yourself one lethal opening move. Critical striking with Ambush is just an awe to behold, and this Talent brings it about like nothing else.
Improved Vanish â 3 points
Increases your movement speed while vanished by 30%.
Vanish puts you into âan improved state of Stealthâ and lasts for 10 seconds. At Rank 4, Stealth grants you 70% movement speed normally. Combine this Talent with Rank 4 Stealth, and for 10 whole seconds you can move around Stealthed as though you were unimpaired. Add in the bonus from Camouflage, and you actually move 15% FASTER than if you were not stealthed! This can make for either some very easy positioning, or a very fast, clean getaway, especially if you fire off Sprint, too.
Preparation â 1 point
When activated, this ability immediately finishes the cooldown on your other Rogue abilities.
Read that over one more time. Let that sink in. Now, picture this: you're in a big, long battle with a very tough mob. You've pulled out all your tricks, using Evasion, Vanish, and Sprint to buy you all the time you possibly could. You Kick is used up, your Gouge is spent, and the mob is getting ready to unleash the final killing blows to you. You think it's all over â but then you pull out this skill. One use of this wonderful, heavenly Talent, and you get an instant get-out-of-jail-free card, buying you not only more time, but more importantly a full arsenal of skills at your disposal once more. Another shot at Evasion, another chance to Vanish, another shot at Gouging them and then Sprinting away. This skill can be an absolute lifesaver, and with ONLY a 10-minute cooldown, this skill will be ready for you to use at least a couple times in any long-drawn instance or battle. Whether it buys you a chance to deal a killing blow, or the opportunity to run off and heal up, no matter what it's a skill that you simply don't want to live without. You've delved this far into the tree; now it's beginning to bear the fruit of your labors. Enjoy it.
Setup â 3 points
Gives you a 45% chance to add a combo point to your target after dodging their attack.
Let's look at that again. Almost a 1 in 2 chance that everytime I dodge (remember what I said before? Lightning Reflexes + Ghostly Strike ring a bell?), I get an absolutely FREE combo point? And all I have to do is have the monster attempt to beat on me? My God, I think someone put this here for a reason! With Lightning Reflxes already boosting your Dodge chance to significant levels, and Ghostly Strike helping to add combo points to your target (damage will almost certainly be higher than Sinister Strike, AND it has that wonderful 15% dodge bonus!), you'll be racking up more combo points than you'll know what to do with. And just think: that Evasion you triggered because your were getting the snot beat out of you and you needed just a few seconds of breathing time? Guess what: it just bought you a couple combo points, too.
Hemorrhage â 1 point
An instant strike that damages the opponent and causes the target to hemorrhage, increasing any Physical damage dealt to the target by up to 3. Lasts 30 charges or 15 sec. Awards 1 combo point.
Now, I hear what you all are saying. â3 measly damage per hit? That's not even a drop in the bucket compared to what I'm doing normally! Oh, what, it gets up to 7 damage per hit at Rank 3? Big deal! It's STILL a pittance! Why would I EVER bother with this worthless skill?!â Oh how glad I am that you asked. But first, I must finish explaining the remaining Talents (don't worry, I'll be devoting an entire section to this skill; just be patient).
Premeditation â 1 point
When used, adds 2 combo points to your target. The target must become engaged in combat within 5 sec or the combo points are lost.
Uh-oh, here we go again. âWhy would I ever use THIS skill, especially if I have to sacrifice so many Talent points just to get it?! Cheap Shot already does this, albeit for 50 more Energy, so what gives?â Picture this: you're stealthed, positioned ever-so-perfectly behind your target. You have your twin daggers drawn, ready to strike in a flash like a viper from the shadows. Ah, but you want to make this first strike worth as much as possible! So you, like most, opt to open up with a Cheap Shot to get those 2 precious combo points, where you immediately start spamming out Sinister Strikes before.... WRONG! Cheap Shot breaks Stealth. If you're not stealthed, you can't use Ambush, and since we've devoted close to half our Talent points in an attempt to push this skill to the maximum, it would be a COMPLETE waste to use Cheap Shot over Ambush â especially when Ambush can potentially get you 2 combo points (we'll ignore the fact that Cheap Shot could potentially get 3; the added combo point is irrellevant compared to the massive damage you lose out on by not choosing Ambush). Remember: SUBTLETY! Say it with me. Again. Once more. Ok, good. Now that we have that cleared up, let's get back to focusing on the merits of this skill, shall we? Premeditation is perhaps one of the top 3 or 4 underrated skills, in my humble opinion. It costs one sixth that of Cheap Shot, doesn't break stealth, and has a cooldown of only 2 minutes. What this means is, you can fire it off, and you have a full 5 seconds to get off an Ambush before the points disappear, thus giving you not only a massive damage advantage over using Cheap Shot, but also an additional combo point (ignoring all the other Talents we've boosted in this build). Remember that your SOLE purpose to gaining those first 5 combo points is to use Slice and Dice, so that the REAL hurting can begin. You may not understand this yet, but I guarantee you it will become much clearer very shortly.
Potential Variations:
Since you have most of the tree covered, there's little room left to work with, though not so much for lack of Talent points as lack of unfilled Talents. True, you could take those 5 points out of Lethality and disperse them somewhere in this tree (such as into Improved Sap, so that you can tackle two mobs and still have a 90% chance of being able to pull off your usual opener on the one not stunned, or into Rapid Concealment or Elusiveness, to cut down on the cooldown for some of your more popular skills, although Preparation can do the same thing without any additional Talent point investment), but why bother? They're better off where they are. You do technically have 2 Talent points in this tree you can float, without losing out on the âbigâ skill for the tree (Premeditation), but there's not really anyplace else I can think of to put them that would be better off than where they are now. Preparation is a godly skill, but you can live without it (most Rogues do). Ditto for Improved Vanish and Camouflage, although I'd much rather keep these than trade them in for something else. So, really, the tree is pretty much set.
Combat - Solo
Whew! Well, now that we've gotten all that Talent business aside, we can begin to truly break this character down. We know the skills, we know the Talents and the bonuses, and we should know the basic run of the character. But what to do with it all? For starters, let's talk combat.
As with any good Rogue (mock me if you dare), you're going to want to spend a significant portion of your time Stealthed. It allows for moving about undetected (and with the above Talents, you'll hardly notice the movement penalty) and positioning for some of your most powerful, and most often-used skills (Ambush, mainly). Most fights will start out about the same: Stealth, approach your target, drop Premeditation on them to start your combo building, and Ambush them from behind (hopefully scoring a critical hit and a bonus combo point) to actually engage them and open up combat. By this point, they will have at least 3 combo points on them, potentially 4, and depending on which it is, the battle will go slightly different. If they only have 3 points, I recommend a quick Ghostly Strike to get it up to 4 combo points. The reason I chose this over Hemorrhage is mostly a matter of preference, but since Ghostly Strike only lasts for 7 seconds, by the time you get that fifth combo point off (via Hemorrhage; your last combo point will ALWAYS be with Hemorrhage) and finish off with Slice and Dice, the timer will almost be up, so it will need refreshing. In that time you'll probably also have earned a combo point or two, so opening up with another Ghostly Strike can potentially put you up over halfway to a full combo meter again, and combat has barely started! If, on the other hand, your target already has 4 combo points, hit it with Hemorrhage (Hemorrhage is ALWAYS the fifth combo point: remember this!) and then finish off with a quick Slice and Dice.
By now, you've got them Hemorrhaged (lasting for either 30 charges or 15 seconds) and yourself under the effects of Slice and Dice (lasting for just over 30 seconds). The two combined will make for some very rapid damage piling on, even without building up any further combo points. You've probably managed to Dodge enough to get at least one more free combo point, so throwing in another Ghostly Strike will help you earn more free points. If you're dual-wielding Daggers (I highly recommend it, but it's not necessary), you should be pushing close to 1.0 â 1.33 seconds weapon speed for each attack, depending on the base speed of your weapon (even a dagger with a base speed of 1.9 will attack at 1.33 while under the effects of Rank 2 Slice and Dice). This will allow you to hopefully attack your target about once a second (almost twice a second if you're dual-wielding). All these rapid attacks are going to be proccing Hemorrhage left and right, provided you don't miss too much (even a 50% miss rate will still fire off 15 charges in the 15 seconds), which is just going to pile the damage on at an alarming rate.
Let's get mathematical for a moment. Hemorrhage lasts for 30 charges or 15 seconds. Improved Slice and Dice lasts for just over 30 seconds. That's at least two full Hemorrhages before you even have to refresh Slice and Dice. Provided you're dual-wielding daggers, you should be pushing out a weapon speed at or close to 1.0 seconds, thus allowing you to around thirty swings in those 15 seconds. Provided even 50% (a somewhat low number) of those swings hit, you've just dealt an additional 45 damage (+3 damage per hit, 15 hits) over the course of 15 seconds. Doesn't sound like a lot, now does it? Ah, but look at it another way. That's an additional 3.0 DPS, and that's with only a 50% hit rate! Let's say you got all the way up to ~67%, or 20 hits in 15 seconds. Now you're talking 60 damage in 15 seconds, or 4.0 DPS. May not sound like much, but it's starting to look a whole lot nicer than a mere +3 damage per hit. Now get this: at Rank 1, Hemorrhage does +3 physical damage per hit. For each further Rank, up to a maximum of 3, it deals an additional +2 physical damage per hit. That's a total of +7 damage per hit. Let's try plugging that number in, shall we? 50% hit rate = 15 hits, 105 damage, 15 seconds. That's 7.0 DPS. ~67% hit rate = 20 hits, 140 damage, 15 seconds, totaling up to 9.33 DPS. If you could slide your hit % up to 70%, you'd be pounding out an additional 147 total damage over 15 seconds, or almost 10 DPS (9.8)! That's a fairly significant boost, wouldn't you say? It leads to a very interesting equation that casts Hemorrhage into a whole new light.
+X physical damage per hit directly translates to a percentage of +X DPS, depending on your hit rate. I can't imagine having a hit % of lower than 50%, which would still make +X damage from Hemorrhage = +X DPS, but if you somehow miraculously got a 100% hit rate, you'd be dealing +2X DPS! Even at only 75% hit rate, that's still an impressive 10.5 DPS for 15 seconds. That's nothing to scoff at!
To get back to the combat we had playing out earlier, you've now used up your Hemorrhage (15 seconds worth of time). You've had ample time to build up at least ONE full bar of combo points, allowing you to either refresh your Slice and Dice, or use some other finishing move (Rupture or Eviscerate would be excellent choices; Expose Armor is also very good at low- to mid-levels). Firing off another Hemorrhage will allow you to extend that damage boost (think in terms of DPS, not +damage per hit), and start you off towards either filling up the rest of your combo bar, or starting a whole new one. A few Ghostly Strikes thrown in here and there for good measure, and a refresher Slice and Dice to continue the massive beating (if it's even necessary at this point â most mobs will probably be dead by the time you need to refresh Slice and Dice, or will be shortly after, making something like Eviscerate a potentially better choice, although this will vary from battle to battle). If you really want to be creative, you can drop a Gouge and/or Vanish, and then quickly sneak up on your target for a quick Ambush. This can be risky, however, as Vanish breaks combat entirely, causing the monster to flee back to his home spot (whereas Gouge keeps them rooted in place for a short time). If you're going to try this method, I recommend Gouging them first, positioning yourself behind them, and then quickly firing off Vanish + Ambush in rapid succession, before they can turn and flee. With practice, this could be a very effective finisher, although I tend to prefer having Vanish at-the-ready for a quick escape. Preparation helps offset this, however, so use to your taste.
Combat â Group
Your role in a group is twofold â scouting, and damage. Everything under solo combat still applies to group combat. Your main focus will still be the same: Stealth and scout, open with Ambush, get Hemorrhage & Slice and Dice up as soon as possible, and shred your target to pieces. Where things get tricky are when you have at least one Tank in the party. Because tanks such as Warriors and Paladins, and Druids in Bear / Dire Bear form, rely so heavily and exclusively on physical damage (much like yourself), they'll be digging into your Hemorrhage charges, too. Because of this, some adjustment will be required in order to make sure you're all getting the most benefit out of it. First of all, you're going to need to decide which target(s) to Hemorrhage. Then, you must keep track of whether or not it's still active, and if it isn't, you have to be ready to reapply it at a moment's notice. This will require constant viewing of your target's status bars to see if Hemorrhage is still active, although this shouldn't be too difficult, since you should be watching their health and your combo bar anyway.
Because you've probably got a dedicated Tank or two, maintaining aggro (or, rather, keeping it off of you and on the Tank(s)) is going to be a new priority, one you didn't have to deal with in solo. You have plenty of skills to help you deal with aggro management (Feint, Vanish), and several others that either supplement them (Preparation), or are just plain handy (Evasion). But the most important thing you can do if you manage to pull aggro off the Tank is this: NOTHING. That's right, STOP ATTACKING. Gouge them, Vanish, or just stand there, but whatever you do, do NOT continue to attack! Your rapid strikes and impressive damage will be a tough match for any Tank to overcome, so if you're not careful, you may very quickly find yourself in excpetionally hot water. Don't be afraid to hit Evasion to buy you some time, or even Vanish and run off to the side to bandage up (ALL Rogues should know First Aid, and they should use it whenever they can do so without interruption, even on other party members, if the main Healer is under too much stress). Just remember to stay cool and not panic, and above all else DO NOT FIGHT BACK. Let the Tank pull the aggro back onto himself, bandage yourself up (or snag a heal from your Healer), and take a short breather to let the Tank right the situation before diving back in. You have a very full arsenal for dealing with just about ANY situation, so keep a level head and a watchful eye on your skills and you'll be just fine.
One last thing. You have an incredible ability that no other character has: you can detect and disarm traps. While this may not see much use in general PvE combat, in PvP it will be essential. Learn to keep this skill up constantly, and learn to utilize it well, especially while scouting. It may save your (or your party's) life someday in the Battlegrounds.
Combat - General
Coating your daggers with Poisons can also greatly increase your damage output, even without any Talent point investment in them. Instant Poisons are your best bet for pure damage, as they will proc often enough to deal appreciably damage, and relatively steadily while under the effects of Slice and Dice. Deadly Poison is good, and does stack up to 5 times, but with your rapid attacks, it won't take long to max that out, at which point your future procs will be wasted until the old ones wear off. Crippling and Mind-Numbing poison are of incredible situational use, effectively cutting off casters, and anyone who might flee as the battle draws to a close. These tools are at your disposal for a reason: use them, and use them often. They will make your already easy life that much easier, and most likely put a big smile on your face when you're able to rip your enemies to shreds in a matter of seconds, utilizing but a few simple tricks.
Conclusion
This Rogue build is fairly straightforward, relying on a few key abilities and strategies to get the job done. Stealth, Premeditation, and Ambush to start, with Ghostly Strike supplementing damage and combo points, Hemorrhage acting like a âcurseâ of sorts, and Slice and Dice being your first finisher, and one that you'll want to keep up constantly. Everything else at your disposal is just pure gravy, either dishing out more damage, helping to pull you out of a tough jamb, or setting you up for your next moves. Eviscerate may see some use, given all the combo points you'll be racking up, but I don't foresee much use for Sinister Strike at all (Ghostly Strike and/or Hemorrhage are much better choices, since they both not only do damage but add some very good bonuses to you). Get into the habit of learning the movement patterns of your potential targets. Learn to scout ahead while stealthed, even in wide-open areas â the skill will prove utterly invaluable in instances and other group play. Practice your positioning and timing, and learn to feel the flow of battle so that you can plan your moves out ahead of time. You have a plethora of abilities that allow you to bring instant or near-instant control back into your hands via eliminating cooldown timers and amassing free combo points. Use both to your fullest advantage â after all, you ARE a Rogue!
A Rogue Mini-Strategy Guide - Artega - 01-25-2005
Don't use this build against a Warrior. He'll destroy you.
Otherwise, this is great stuff! :)
A Rogue Mini-Strategy Guide - Concillian - 01-25-2005
A few points:
First and foremost, you can't put points in Lethality without 10 points in the assassination tree. I think your first edit should correct this rather large oversight.
I would compare hemorrhage with what people would generally use in it's place, Sinister Strike. You simply show how much damage hem does without taking into account what you could do with another attack of the same level (the analysis still favors hem, assuming you have enough time to land all the blows)
While I'm a little reluctant to critique the talent build, because you mention it's a themed build, I think the exclusion of Improved Sap is near suicide to enjoyable group instance play at or near cap level. Improved Sap, should also fit well with your theme. Personally I'd take the Vanish points and put them in Imp. Sap.
It seems like you think premed. excludes the use of CS. It doesn't, and actually would fit VERY well into your build.
Distract + Premed + CS + SnD = 4 or 5 CP of Slice and Dice without having to wait for energy.
Premed, unlike any other rogue skill, has a casting time. Because of that you may want to discuss a little about if you've experienced premed having issues with mobs running out of the short range during the casting time, or if you have to use distract EVERY time you use premeditation. I've never used premeditation, so I don't know for sure how this plays into it's use, but I imagine it requires a little different strategy. I imagine at the very least it means that premed is of little use in a group PvP type setting.
Artega is right about the warrior comment. Dodge is the last thing you want to do against a warrior, you basically give a warrior sinister strike with this build, as he will overpower every 5 seconds.
A Rogue Mini-Strategy Guide - Roland - 01-26-2005
Concillian,Jan 25 2005, 04:10 PM Wrote:A few points:
First and foremost, you can't put points in Lethality without 10 points in the assassination tree. I think your first edit should correct this rather large oversight.
Eep! I have no idea how that one slipped by me. Must have been because it was about 3 in the morning when I started. :P I'll take a look into that, and see what I can do.
Quote:I would compare hemorrhage with what people would generally use in it's place, Sinister Strike. You simply show how much damage hem does without taking into account what you could do with another attack of the same level (the analysis still favors hem, assuming you have enough time to land all the blows)
Sounds like a good plan. Will take some mathematical analysis to do the comparison, but shouldn't be too much of a problem. Thanks for the tip!
Quote:While I'm a little reluctant to critique the talent build, because you mention it's a themed build, I think the exclusion of Improved Sap is near suicide to enjoyable group instance play at or near cap level. Improved Sap, should also fit well with your theme. Personally I'd take the Vanish points and put them in Imp. Sap.
I've used Sap quite often, but I have yet to get close to the level cap, so high-level instance play is not something I've had any experience with. I've always considered Improved Sap to be a nice skill (and I did mention it as a possible investment in the Subtlety tree), but I was unaware that it's virtually essential. You are right in that Improved Sap would fit with the overall goal of the build (which I also mentioned), although I was generally favoring Vanish over Sap. But I'll give it another once-over.
Quote:It seems like you think premed. excludes the use of CS. It doesn't, and actually would fit VERY well into your build.
Distract + Premed + CS + SnD = 4 or 5 CP of Slice and Dice without having to wait for energy.
I already explained this. Cheap Shot breaks stealth. The purpose of this build is to utilize Ambush, Hemorrhage, and Slice and Dice to their fullest advantage. I wrote all about this in the guide, in that Cheap Shot offers minimal benefit due to Initiative, which makes 3 out of every 4 Ambushes (and Cheap Shots, but again, I already explained the merits of Ambush over Cheap Shot) will pop 2 combo points instead of one, thus allowing you to fire Premeditation, Ambush, Hemorrhage, and Slice and Dice all within the first few seconds of battle. Cheap Shot offers no damage bonus, and Ambush already has heavy investment from other Talents to improve it even more. It wasn't that I think it's a choice between Cheap Shot or Premeditation, it's that Cheap Shot excludes the use of Ambush, which I already pointed out was a critical skill of this build. Ambush's high damage potential (especially with a critical strike) far outweighs the potential for one extra combo point from Cheap Shot.
Quote:Premed, unlike any other rogue skill, has a casting time. Because of that you may want to discuss a little about if you've experienced premed having issues with mobs running out of the short range during the casting time, or if you have to use distract EVERY time you use premeditation. I've never used premeditation, so I don't know for sure how this plays into it's use, but I imagine it requires a little different strategy. I imagine at the very least it means that premed is of little use in a group PvP type setting.
Good advice. I use Distract so often that I kind of took for granted that some Rogues may never use this skill at all. To me it's a staple ability, to be used for scouting, safe escape, and setting up a strong opening attack. It amazes me how some of, IMHO, the most important skills that a Rogue has many people just see as utterly useless. Eh, whatever, a rant for another time. Distract does warrant mention, if I didn't already, as I use it constantly, and it is a staple skill for any Rogue worth his stealthy salt. Thanks for noting the casting time on Premeditation. I've gotten quite good at maneuvering around targets so that movement on their part is usually not much of a concern, but I still use Distract about 50% of the time, even while soloing. In groups, I use it about 90% - 100% of the time, especially in Instances, where little space and tightly packed monsters translate to difficult maneuvering.
Quote:Artega is right about the warrior comment. Dodge is the last thing you want to do against a warrior, you basically give a warrior sinister strike with this build, as he will overpower every 5 seconds.
One thing everyone should note: I am not writing this (nor any other guide) for PvP. I threw a small blurb about PvP play in there just for the sake of having SOMETHING said about it in the guide, but I myself do not play PvP. I see no merit to exposing myself to repeated ganking and griefing, nor do I feel like succumbing to the pressures of always having to group up to survive. It's not worth my time nor money to invest into something I won't enjoy nearly as much as I enjoy PvE play. So, don't expect any of my builds to be geared towards PvP play. I should think that many of them would be applicable to PvP play, perhaps with some adustment, but it is not my focus, so it won't be the focus of any guides I write.
Thanks for your comments, though. I think they'll definitely fill in some gaps that I didn't know I had, and that's always a good thing. :) And don't be too afraid to comment on the Talent build just because it's themed. If you see something you feel is either out of place, or could be replaced by something better, feel free to speak up on it! I value anyone's input, provided it's constructive. ;)
A Rogue Mini-Strategy Guide - Roland - 01-26-2005
Artega,Jan 25 2005, 01:59 PM Wrote:Don't use this build against a Warrior. He'll destroy you.
Otherwise, this is great stuff! :)
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Since you seem to have at least some knowledge of PvP play, maybe you could outline for me the merits of class vs. class in PvP? I.e. who a Rogue is good against, and who a Rogue will get slaughtered against. I have no PvP experience, nor do I intend to change that anytime soon, and furthermore my guides are written solely for PvE play. I only inserted that short blurb on PvP combat to have some "filler", so to speak. In other words, I put it in there so that there would be SOME mention of it, since it IS of at least passing interest to a good portion of the players here, but it is not my intention of making it a large focal point of the guide. If I were to get enough input to expand it, I might consider dedicating a small section of the guide to PvP play, but it'd have to be input from the community, as I have no PvP characters and no desire to start any.
A Rogue Mini-Strategy Guide - Artega - 01-26-2005
Roland,Jan 25 2005, 09:04 PM Wrote:Since you seem to have at least some knowledge of PvP play, maybe you could outline for me the merits of class vs. class in PvP? I.e. who a Rogue is good against, and who a Rogue will get slaughtered against. I have no PvP experience, nor do I intend to change that anytime soon, and furthermore my guides are written solely for PvE play. I only inserted that short blurb on PvP combat to have some "filler", so to speak. In other words, I put it in there so that there would be SOME mention of it, since it IS of at least passing interest to a good portion of the players here, but it is not my intention of making it a large focal point of the guide. If I were to get enough input to expand it, I might consider dedicating a small section of the guide to PvP play, but it'd have to be input from the community, as I have no PvP characters and no desire to start any.
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Rogues are probably the best 1v1 PvP out there right now - while combat rogues might not do so well against Warriors, DoT rogues can drop the various DoTs and then use Sprint/Evasion/Vanish to let them run their course, then finish with a Slice and Dice.
Aside from anything that dodges frequently, Warriors don't truly excel or suck against any one class. Fury specced Warriors do well against Warlocks and Priests due to ample Fear immunity.
Hunters can be problematic, especially if they have Improved Wing Clip or Counterattack, but use of roots (such as the Large Rope Nets from Defias in Westfall, or the Really Sticky Glue quest reward in Durotar, or the Net-o-Matic engineering item) and liberal use of Hamstring/Piercing Howl can generally even the score.
Frost Mages will win nine times out of ten if the Warrior doesn't have a Free Action Potion - with it, the Mage will die a horrible death. With Fire mages, it's mostly a contest of who can hit harder faster.
Against Rogues, you generally want to use Disarm and any stuns available (Improved Revenge works well with a 2H weapon), and switch to Battle Stance for an Overpower. Most rogues have difficulty beating plate armor. If they're a crit-focused Rogue, a Fury spec Warrior will eat them alive due to Enrage.
Against other Warriors, you generally want to snare them then follow with Sunder Armor and eventually Disarm. In a Warrior v Warrior fight, it's literally a race to get the opposing person to 20% HP for an Execute.
Against Paladins, you just need to learn how to manage your Rage. If they're less than intelligent, you can Execute them before they bubble up. Otherwise, use a Bandage while they're bubbled (Heavy Runecloth heals an amazing 2000 HP), and Disarm them for round two. I've only seen them use two bubbles, and I would assume they save Lay on Hands for PvE circumstances, so if you're still in good shape after the second bubble dies, you've basically won.
I don't have much experience with Druids, since most people seem to think they suck. Only time I've seen one was when it was stealthing with some rogues, and it got priority because of its healing abilities.
As Horde, I don't have much experience against Shaman. I would assume any and all kind of Silence would be your friend here - Arcane Bombs could work very well here.
A Rogue Mini-Strategy Guide - Guest - 01-31-2005
Similar build idea. Basically maximising the bonus from Hemmorage. You would use 2 fast daggers. probably not a great PvP build but it would be workable and you could pull off stun lock.
Assassination Talents (10 points)
# Malice - 5/5 points
# Improved Slice and Dice - 3/3 points
# Murder - 2/2 points
Combat Talents (8 points)
# Lightning Reflexes - 5/5 points
# Deflection - 3/5 points
Subtlety Talents (33 points)
# Camouflage - 5/5 points
# Master of Deception - 5/5 points
# Opportunity - 5/5 points
# Ghostly Strike - 1/1 point
# Initiative - 5/5 points
# Improved Rupture - 3/3 points
.
# Improved Sap - 3/3 points
# Preparation - 1/1 point
# Hemorrhage - 1/1 point
# Setup - 3/3 points
# Premeditation - 1/1 point
This build also focuses making the best use of Setup.
A PvE order of attack might go.
Garrote -> Hemmorage -> Hemmorage -> Rupture -> Hemmorage -> Slice and dice -> Ghostly strike ...........
Or maybeuse Ghostlystrike sooner. Any combo points from evade would mean dropping a Hemmorage.