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Paladin thought - mjdoom - 02-02-2005
Recently I've been thinking about different strategies for some high level content that I am just starting to get introduced to. If you don't want to read my whole diatribe skip to the last paragraph.
Just last night Niniuin (Sword_of_Doom) and I had the "pleasure" of being in a raid group that was wiped in the "room from hell" in Scholomance and it got me to thinking about how to do that with a group of 5, specifically with the current set of Lurkers we have on Stormrage...
We currently only have one top level tank, Nini who is a level 60 paladin. Due to the fact that the skeletons in that room are mage immune (and we have 2 of those out of the 6) it would increase the time that it would take for our group to kill off those mobs. This means more healing from the priest and thus a greater chance of the the priest drawing aggro. One issue I have seen at high levels is paladins holding aggro when there are multiple targets so I thought about the problem a bit to see if we could get around it.
The thought that I came up with was to use retribution aura to help generate hate on all targets as they beat on the paladin thus increasing the chance of them sticking. That combined with Blessing of Salvation seems like a way to keep the mobs glued to the paladin while our lowered dps works on taking down the mobs. I thought this seemed like a fairly logical conclusion but I wasn't sure if the aura would actually build up hate for the pally as the mobs took the retribution damage.
I decided to wade through the blizzard forums a bit to see if I could get an answer but saw too much whining about the changes in the recent/upcoming patch so I posted a topic myself asking for an answer. You can see the resulthere.
The long and short of it is that it seems to me (as someone who has not played a high level pally) that retribution aura could be a great choice for a pally that needs to tank with multiple targets. Unleashing something like fury might be useful if a mob tries to get away (or using aoe just to try to generate some hate if multiple mobs try to break). Can anyone confirm or deny my thoughts? This might be a key to helping a pally be a viable tank if necessary in the late game.
- mjdoom
Paladin thought - Tal - 02-02-2005
I've not gotten a tanking paladin to high level since the changes at the close of Beta but I can see a couple of combinations that *might* work. Key to this is letting the Paladin get aggro initially through a combination of seal of fury and consecration. I personally attempt to hit every mob at least once with my weapon after consecration to make sure I am still at the top of the mob's hate list. Releasing SoF makes holy damage done to the target garner additional threat. Using retribution and consecration would be the logical follow up to releasing the seal. To prevent a mob from running away you need to release seal of justice (I use this often in Scarlet Monastery). Otherwise you must rely up on other means to keep a mob from running. Personally given what I saw of Scholomance I wouldn't wish to be the main tank in there but would instead bring a warrior so that I could bring my excellent undead abillities to play. :)
Also a Tank pally would want to make sure they have at least the improved seal of fury talent. ;)
Paladin thought - mjdoom - 02-02-2005
Tal,Feb 2 2005, 03:35 PM Wrote:Personally given what I saw of Scholomance I wouldn't wish to be the main tank in there but would instead bring a warrior so that I could bring my excellent undead abillities to play. :)
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Of course, the one advantage we have in there is the ability to shackle, seduction, poly and Mind Control with our group allows for a lot of crowd control so that our tank has minimal targets to deal with, but crowd control can become more difficult in that one particular room that is filled with all undead mobs. That is why this issue hasn't come up before in prior instances.
- mjdoom
Paladin thought - Artega - 02-03-2005
Do Pallies not heal when they're tanking? It would seem that they should, or they'd just seem like gimp Warriors :unsure:
Paladin thought - Taeme - 02-03-2005
I can hold aggro, as a warrior, without using taunt or using sunder, if my comrades know how to focus fire and control their aggro. It's tricky to do - And generally not worth while - But I would imagine it can be done.
As long as your party is focusing fire, generating hate on ONE target to keep it locked isn't hard. The real trouble lies with the healer and the hate heals generate. EVERYTHING soundly hates on the healer, and that's the trouble. That's a problem I haven't figure out yet, so I invariably get back to ye old taunt and sunder.
Probably doable, but I'd get a warrior for the tough instances.
Artega,Feb 2 2005, 08:44 PM Wrote:Do Pallies not heal when they're tanking? It would seem that they should, or they'd just seem like gimp Warriors :unsure:I can't figure out why they wouldn't. Heals are such a great way to generate aggro, why I daresay that could practically serve as the paladin taunt!
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Paladin thought - mjdoom - 02-03-2005
Artega,Feb 2 2005, 07:44 PM Wrote:Do Pallies not heal when they're tanking? It would seem that they should, or they'd just seem like gimp Warriors :unsure:
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Speaking without much experience I would say that it is hard for a paladin to heal while tanking. The casting time of a spell goes up immensly if you are constantly taking hits (like a tank usually is) and in that time you are not doing damage or otherwise generating hate. The one option a pally has is to throw on his invincibility shield and heal but this has two problems: 1) He can only do this infrequently due to cooldown 2) Pallys lose all aggro during the time the shield is up. The mobs realize that they can't hit the pally so they go to the next PC on the list. I got killed as the priest because of this once and the pally went down soon after without my healing to help him out.
Sure, heals will generate hate, but that is only if you can get them off efficiently and I'm not sure that that is always the case.
- mjdoom
Paladin thought - Tal - 02-03-2005
Artega,Feb 2 2005, 08:44 PM Wrote:Do Pallies not heal when they're tanking? It would seem that they should, or they'd just seem like gimp Warriors :unsure:
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Well in general I can tank or I can heal but not both. Why? Because if I'm tanking to my full potential I do not have mana to spare to heal. Between the various seals I have to cast and judge, consecration, casting Salvation on squishy types, etc.
Taeme,Feb 2 2005, 09:00 PM Wrote:I can't figure out why they wouldn't. Heals are such a great way to generate aggro, why I daresay that could practically serve as the paladin taunt!
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Except they lowered the threat that paladin heals cause to the point that its worthless as a reliable means of gaining hate. Prior to the end of Beta I could pull aggro just by healing the object of their affection with a couple of flash heals. Now I have to stun, seal of fury and hope. :)
Paladin thought - Sword_of_Doom - 02-03-2005
Just a couple of thoughts.
I have tried a few builds and the one that works the best is 1h and shield with 30+ points in Retribution Talents.
Generating aggro IMHO is more about party play than Pally play. If the party allows the Paladin to hit first and then a few more times, holding aggro is not a problem. Also, i have noticed if Priests use Power Word: Shield on the tank and Renew they generate far less aggro. Those that choose to go with the big heal will always pull aggro from whomever is tanking (Warrior or Paladin). I am noticing in the high end instances its all about Party tactics. If i am main tank i must be first to hit and must do that a few times. If there are multiple targets all party members must focus on assisting the tank.
I would say Consecration is more effective than retribution. I have tried Retribution but by itself it fails to hold any aggro. Also Seal of Fury is worthless. It does not "appear" to do anything for me and for me to regain aggro it seems more dependant on whether i can get a critical off on the monster than Seal of Fury. I must admit i have not tried putting points into Improved Seal of Fury and i am contemplating trying that.
Your thoughts are excellent and have given me ideas and consideration of repeccing for the fourth time just to try out part of your ideal tank build.
If i do, i will post what effects that has had.
Paladin thought - vor_lord - 02-03-2005
mjdoom,Feb 2 2005, 06:11 PM Wrote:Speaking without much experience I would say that it is hard for a paladin to heal while tanking. The casting time of a spell goes up immensly if you are constantly taking hits (like a tank usually is) and in that time you are not doing damage or otherwise generating hate. The one option a pally has is to throw on his invincibility shield and heal but this has two problems: 1) He can only do this infrequently due to cooldown 2) Pallys lose all aggro during the time the shield is up. The mobs realize that they can't hit the pally so they go to the next PC on the list. I got killed as the priest because of this once and the pally went down soon after without my healing to help him out.
Sure, heals will generate hate, but that is only if you can get them off efficiently and I'm not sure that that is always the case.
- mjdoom
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Every tough battle (where I know I will reach deep into the paladin's bag of "oh crap!" spells), I run concentration aura. Along with 5 points in spiritual focus, this means you can't be interrupted by hits during a heal. Sure, I'm giving up some damage reduction (devotion) or some damage (retribution) but being able to predictably get off a heal is worth a lot. As you point out, if you're tanking, popping up the shield on yourself is a surefire way to get the squishies squished.
But paladin heals don't seem to generate much in the way of hate anyway. I've hardly ever noticed me healing pulling aggro off of anyone.
Though if you're the primary tank, chances are you're spamming consecration--you won't have all that much mana to be healing anyway.