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Warlocks, the item debate... - Lissa - 03-30-2005
With all the new goodies being added into the game, there are now more choices than ever for a Warlock at the end game on which items to use. For the longest time, the choice Warlocks had was +int, +sta gear and slowly the +shadow damage and +fire damage items started to creep in. Now we have a full range of items to choose from ranging from simple improved stats items, like the Dreadmist Rainments, to the +x mana every 5 seconds, to the +shadow or fire damage, or the strictly generic +healing/damage items.
Lately, this has been a hotly debated topic on the Warlock forums at Blizzard. People have said to go one way or another, but after much banter, people have finally started to look at the math.
At present, your choices on items means you sacrifice in some way (with a couple notiable exceptions). If you decide to go +stats, you will miss out on increased mana regen whlie casting or lose out on increased damage, the coverse can be said for the other two options as you will only gain one of the three in the end.
So, let's take a sample Warlock. Let's put this Warlock at level 60. Let's also give this Warlock maxed out First Aid with Heavy Rune Cloth bandages. Let's also throw in Life Tap for good measure and use the Improved Life Tap talent (costing 7 Talent Points to truly get because it is second tier). Let's say that said Warlock, once every minute, Life Taps down 2000 health and then immediately bandages (this is about 5 casts of Life Tap). This means that over the course of 13 seconds, they will effectively get back 2500 mana. Now, let's have the Warlock spam their most damaging spell barring crits, Shadowbolt. The final Shadowbolt spell, Shadowbolt 9, requires 370 mana to cast every 3 seconds (2.5 seconds with the Bane talent) and does on average 481 damage (457 to 505). This means that a Warlock can spam 6.8 Shadowbolts with the mana given from out Lifetap/Bandage combo.
This means that without +damage or +x mana every 5 seconds, a Warlock would do 3270.8 damage every minute if they do not regain mana or health through any other means than the Lifetap and Bandage method.
Now, let's look at what +x mana every 5 seconds would give a Warlock in improved damage. If a Warlock were to attain every +x mana every 5 seconds item in the game, they would gain 504 mana every minute no matter if they were casting or not. This means that they could cast a total of 1.4 more Shadowbolts than our above Warlock, giving them a damage of 3944.2 every minute. So we see a healthy increase in damage without losing much in the way of mana.
Let's now take a look at a Warlock that decided to get generic +damage items. A Warlock that decided to go this route can attain +149 minimum if they get every item that can be worn by a Warlock (you can get higher if you go for certain items over others). Now, the beauty of Shadowbolt is that it gets full damage bonus because it is the the longest cast Shadow damage spell the Warlock has. So, instead of each Shadowbolt doing on average of 481 damage, a Warlock equipped with the appropriate equipment can achieve 630 damage on average for a Shadowbolt. This means that with the Lifetap/Bandage combo, they can achieve 4284 damage every minute.
So, in the end, if you are willing to sacrifice stats, going with +damage items is the route to head. For the most part, end game Warlocks would probably be best to setup 3 suits, a +damage suit, a +stats suit, and +resist suit for places like Molten Core and Onyxia. For the Warlock, +x mana every 5 seconds leaves too much of a void that can be filled by other item choices.
Warlocks, the item debate... - Zippyy - 03-31-2005
Very interesting post... I had always blown off +damage as not worthwhile. It seemed like getting 10 damage here and 15 damage there wouldn't be worth the loss in stats. Now that I think about it, however, a full setup of +damage would probably be much more effective in a raid or even group situation, where the nukers' stats don't matter quite as much as how much damage they put out.
Thanks for the great info :) You are my favorite warlock.
Warlocks, the item debate... - Malakar - 03-31-2005
Nice post.
I'm guessing the usage of Dark Pact would further this gap.
However I have to wonder at what point would you not want to do more damage in high end raids due to aggro.
Warlocks, the item debate... - Icebird - 03-31-2005
You mean there are posts on the warlock forums that don't revolve around basing Eyonix for not single-handedly fixing every issue to do with the warlock class? :blink:
Interesting reading. Now I feel justified in wearing my Dreamweave gloves and vest. (To be fair I made them more for the coolness factor than due to any diligent mathematical analysis).
Besides the options you mention there are potential choices as well. A crit % build could be interesting - with Inventor's Focal Sword, Spellstone, talent bonuses etc, your chance to crit could get quite hit. And with Ruin and/or Curse of Shadows, SB crits can do a lot of damage. The listed damage for my current level of SB is around 300 - with CoS and Ruin I've got 800+ crits on occasion.
For long raids however, I imagine a Dark Pact build would be preferable to a Ruin build for the faster mana recovery.
Chris
Warlocks, the item debate... - Lissa - 03-31-2005
Malakar,Mar 30 2005, 08:54 PM Wrote:Nice post.
I'm guessing the usage of Dark Pact would further this gap.
However I have to wonder at what point would you not want to do more damage in high end raids due to aggro.
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This didn't take into consideration any talents beyond Improved Lifetap. What you decide to go with with a talent build will really depend on your flavor. From personal experience, I've found that Destruction is the most useful talent build for my end game play (mostly instance running).
Warlocks, the item debate... - Lissa - 03-31-2005
Icebird,Mar 31 2005, 09:50 AM Wrote:You mean there are posts on the warlock forums that don't revolve around basing Eyonix for not single-handedly fixing every issue to do with the warlock class? :blink:
Interesting reading. Now I feel justified in wearing my Dreamweave gloves and vest. (To be fair I made them more for the coolness factor than due to any diligent mathematical analysis).
Besides the options you mention there are potential choices as well. A crit % build could be interesting - with Inventor's Focal Sword, Spellstone, talent bonuses etc, your chance to crit could get quite hit. And with Ruin and/or Curse of Shadows, SB crits can do a lot of damage. The listed damage for my current level of SB is around 300 - with CoS and Ruin I've got 800+ crits on occasion.
For long raids however, I imagine a Dark Pact build would be preferable to a Ruin build for the faster mana recovery.
Chris
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Well, the beauty of the +generic damage items is that, outside of the dreamweave circlet, there is no end game piece of headware that gives you generic damage. This means that you could wear the Cap of the Scarlet Savant if you so choose.
Warlocks, the item debate... - TheDragoon - 04-01-2005
You speak a lot of the endgame in your post and the analysis seems to assume that all Warlocks will do for damage in the end-game is spam shadow bolts... is that really true? It seems to me that this analysis would only be applicable if the mana cost for shadow bolt is the primary use of mana for an end-game Warlock. Have any high level Warlocks tracked what skills they use during battles to see what they're spending most of their mana on? After all, +damage items only affect those damage spells that they apply to, they don't matter at all when it comes to the utility spells that a Warlock possesses.
I'm not saying this ISN'T true (I'm not that far with my Warlock), though I hope not. It seems like it would be rather boring if playing a Warlock degenerates from the class it is for most of the game to a source of soulstones and shadow bolts in the end-game. :)
Warlocks, the item debate... - Icebird - 04-01-2005
The major problem that crops up for warlocks in any party larger than 5 (and sometimes even in one) is the 8 slot debuff limit. Given that almost everything competes for those slots (warrior battle cries, mage frost nova and fireball DoT damage, hunter stings, stuns, saps etc etc). Using Drain Life for instance, takes up a debuff slot, pushing something else (possibly even something you've already cast) out. As a result you might cast a curse plus Corruption, then spam Shadow Bolt, Searing Pain or Immolate.
Chris
Warlocks, the item debate... - playingtokrush - 04-01-2005
TheDragoon,Apr 1 2005, 12:37 PM Wrote:You speak a lot of the endgame in your post and the analysis seems to assume that all Warlocks will do for damage in the end-game is spam shadow bolts... is that really true? It seems to me that this analysis would only be applicable if the mana cost for shadow bolt is the primary use of mana for an end-game Warlock. Have any high level Warlocks tracked what skills they use during battles to see what they're spending most of their mana on? After all, +damage items only affect those damage spells that they apply to, they don't matter at all when it comes to the utility spells that a Warlock possesses.I think he might be referring to the instance raid game. I know as far as mages are concerned, it's pretty boring. You just spend most battles spamming frostbolt, arcane missiles, or blizzard. I imagine warlocks do a similar thing with shadowbolt after making sure curse of elements/shadow are on the target(s).
I'm not saying this ISN'T true (I'm not that far with my Warlock), though I hope not. It seems like it would be rather boring if playing a Warlock degenerates from the class it is for most of the game to a source of soulstones and shadow bolts in the end-game. :)
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Warlocks, the item debate... - TheDragoon - 04-02-2005
Icebird,Apr 1 2005, 01:13 PM Wrote:The major problem that crops up for warlocks in any party larger than 5 (and sometimes even in one) is the 8 slot debuff limit. Given that almost everything competes for those slots (warrior battle cries, mage frost nova and fireball DoT damage, hunter stings, stuns, saps etc etc). Using Drain Life for instance, takes up a debuff slot, pushing something else (possibly even something you've already cast) out. As a result you might cast a curse plus Corruption, then spam Shadow Bolt, Searing Pain or Immolate.
Chris
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*Dragoon shakes his fist at the debuff limit*
Why must you haunt me at every turn?! You are so pointless and crippling to Warlocks!
Warlocks, the item debate... - Lissa - 04-02-2005
playingtokrush,Apr 1 2005, 01:15 PM Wrote:I think he might be referring to the instance raid game. I know as far as mages are concerned, it's pretty boring. You just spend most battles spamming frostbolt, arcane missiles, or blizzard. I imagine warlocks do a similar thing with shadowbolt after making sure curse of elements/shadow are on the target(s).
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Correct. In a raid situation, a maximum of 8 debuffs can be on a target. When you are dealing with a 5 man party in the late game, it's not hard to get to 8 debuffs, when you increase to 10 or 15, your debuffs easily get knocked off. This makes spells like Corruption and Immolate (unless you immediately cast Conflagrate) useless cause you will never get the spells to fully damage the target (plus, mobs rarely last longer than 20 seconds outside of Molten Core and Onyxia). As such, the typical Warlock in the end game is using Shadowbolt, Immo-Conflag combo, Searing Pain spam (don't recommend this one), or Drain Life. So, using Shadowbolt as a baseline isn't that far off the mark of how things go for a Warlock in the end game instances (Dire Maul, Blackrock, Stratholme, and Scholomance).