Rogues in general - Printable Version

Rogues in general - Printable Version

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Rogues in general - lunaios - 04-17-2005

Greetings,

I am as you can see from my post count new to these forums, however I would like to pick your brains for some information regarding rogues in the end game instances and raids. The question that has been bothering me, are rogues a good end game class ? I only hear bad stories about them not being asked to come to instances and not being ignored by players in raids. If you have any experience with rogues in end game content could you please respond to my question ?

Rayek.

Rogues in general - Quark - 04-17-2005

lunaios,Apr 17 2005, 02:24 PM Wrote:Greetings,

I am as you can see from my post count new to these forums, however I would like to pick your brains for some information regarding rogues in the end game instances and raids. The question that has been bothering me, are rogues a good end game class ? I only hear bad stories about them not being asked to come to instances and not being ignored by players in raids. If you have any experience with rogues in end game content could you please respond to my question ?

Rayek.
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If end game is your goal, don't choose Rogues. As far as I've seen, they do have a role for all but MC. But this role is mostly ignored by other players, and thrown out completely if you don't have Improved Sap. Rogues are just inferior to Mages later on (AoE + Range + better/extra utility) and there's already too many rogues. Unless you're in a guild where you are "it" as the rogue, you're going to be left out.

Rogues in general - Guest - 04-18-2005

As a rogue I sure hope PvP is fun, because the end game isnt.

It just too much hassle to try and get a group every night you play. Sure a if you have a guild that gaurantees you space its fine, but even then you know you would help your friends more if you played a mage.

Im a roleplayer sort who likes one main toon. The rogue suits me well and was fun to level, but i havent been having much fun for the last 2 months.

Rogues in general - Arnath - 04-18-2005

In regards to the high level instances, I haven't really had a problem finding groups. I mean, you're not going to be getting random instance invites every few seconds, but the only time I've been refused a group is when they really needed a healer/tank position. I think at least for everything other than MC/Onyxia, rogues are just as good as everything else.

Arnath

Rogues in general - russ - 04-18-2005

For late-game raid instances, Rogues are useful, despite what a good many people think, because they end up doing massive amounts of damage, often two or three times what a mage can do. Unfortunatly, they are both very expensive in terms of healing, often taking their own healer for many fights, and too god-damn common.

It's the latter that's more of a problem. The only class more common than rogues is hunters, and those aren't someone you must have for groups, either. Even if a raid has the healers for a rogue, they probably already have many of you guys up for the place.

Rogues also require a good deal of skill to use in an instance, given that pissing off an Ancient Core hound WILL get you and your entire raid of casters killed.

For places like Dire Maul, Sunken Temple, BRS, and most parts of BRD, rogues are helpful, even very useful. For heavy raids, don't expect to be in the highest demand.

Rogues in general - Sword_of_Doom - 04-18-2005

Just some random thoughts about Rogues.

I think Rogues are vastly underrated for the end game and probably are ignored because of lack of understanding of the class and the overabundance of them. I am in a high end raiding guild and we generally take 7 yes 7 Rogues into Molten Core and Onyxia. Rogues are essential for timer bosses like Lord Kazzak where you have 3 minutes to kill and you ain't going to do that with 20 Priests:). All the major instances, BRD, Dire Maul, Stratholme, Scholomance, LBRS, UBRS Rogues are excellent and imho needed. The key to Molten Core is you must have 300 First Aid and just be nimble and quick. Our Rogues when we deal with Fire and Shadow AE bosses usually enter the fight at a prescribed point like 75% or 50% of a bosses life. They also do a lot of backing out and back in when they get pounded on. In my experience (being a Priest) Rogues don't die as often as people say they do and we have a mod that calculates where they stand damage wise and generally we have 2 Rogues in top 5 damage dealers (usually 2 Mages, Hunter and then Rogues).

Rogues in general - Brista - 04-18-2005

On pvp servers rogue is very entertaining

You can do things other classes can't - I've seen 50 Horde players in jitters in the Auction House because we think there's an alliance rogue in the room. This was shortly after the Orgrimmar bankers got killed by rogues, effectively closing the bank for a short while

You have a hunter killer role in mass pvp, and are great at countering lurk-at-the-back healers. For most classes pvp is often indecisive, this is less so with a rogue and killing or being killed is more fun than I-hit-him-a-bit-then-he-healed, then he-hit-me-a-bit-but-I-healed

The downside is that stealth against players is crap until you level up quite high (higher than I've got to with my rogue, my druid at 38 can use it effectively against players quite often)

Your high damage lets you level fast so and you can often complete quests without having to grind through ranks of vanilla monsters

There has been official acknowledgement that there is an issue with rogues and high end area effect mobs so current woes are likely to be addressed at some point, possibly by additional rogue-friendly content rather than a revision of current content

Rogues in general - Quark - 04-18-2005

Sword_of_Doom,Apr 17 2005, 11:55 PM Wrote:Our Rogues when we deal with Fire and Shadow AE bosses usually enter the fight at a prescribed point like 75% or 50% of a bosses life. They also do a lot of backing out and back in when they get pounded on.  In my experience (being a Priest)  Rogues don't die as often as people say they do and we have a mod that calculates where they stand damage wise and generally we have 2 Rogues in top 5 damage dealers (usually 2 Mages, Hunter and then Rogues).
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I have heard of Rogues acting like this in Molten Core, basically getting down to a routine where they keep themselves alive. My problem with it is this: no other class has to do that. Warriors are "important", so they get healed. Mages, Hunters, Priests, Druids, and Warlocks all work at ranged. I admit ignorance on Paladins and Shamans, haven't seen any guides talk about their role. Obviously there's different strategies for each fight, but Rogues are the only class where they're forced to follow a different technique simply because Blizzard decided "Oooh, let's give these guys AoE!" Even in the 5-man instances where I've been attacked with AoE, I've resorted to something like this. I am not the focus of the healer because all I do is make the fight go faster. If damage wasn't their only role, which is easily replaceable with "easier" substitutes, Rogues might actually get healed by the healers.

However, I do agree that pure numbers is the biggest problem with Rogues.

Rogues in general - Sword_of_Doom - 04-18-2005

Quark,Apr 18 2005, 11:31 AM Wrote:I have heard of Rogues acting like this in Molten Core, basically getting down to a routine where they keep themselves alive.  My problem with it is this: no other class has to do that.  Warriors are "important", so they get healed.  Mages, Hunters, Priests, Druids, and Warlocks all work at ranged.  I admit ignorance on Paladins and Shamans, haven't seen any guides talk about their role.  Obviously there's different strategies for each fight, but Rogues are the only class where they're forced to follow a different technique simply because Blizzard decided "Oooh, let's give these guys AoE!"  Even in the 5-man instances where I've been attacked with AoE, I've resorted to something like this.  I am not the focus of the healer because all I do is make the fight go faster.  If damage wasn't their only role, which is easily replaceable with "easier" substitutes, Rogues might actually get healed by the healers.

However, I do agree that pure numbers is the biggest problem with Rogues.
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It is much the same for Priests. I call it my "dance with death". I am in constant motion for the entire battle, weaving in and out of range of Fire and Shadow AE. Being a cloth wearer my survivability is totally determined by how nimble i am. So really, Rogues are not the only class that has to move a lot to keep alive. I find the constant motion interesting and fun. Otherwise i would be static in one spot, spamming flash heals the whole time (which is what i do but i love moving around escaping death, time after time). Now this is not true of every battle in MC, but definitely majority of battles Rogues and Priests are moving a lot.

Rogues in general - Tal - 04-18-2005

I wouldn't even consider making a raid without at least a few rogues. Huge single target DPS? Yes please. :)

Same with hunters - a roving tank and a mail wearer to protect my squishies? More please. :)

Rogues in general - Tal - 04-18-2005

Quark,Apr 17 2005, 06:44 PM Wrote:If end game is your goal, don't choose Rogues.  As far as I've seen, they do have a role for all but MC.  But this role is mostly ignored by other players, and thrown out completely if you don't have Improved Sap.  Rogues are just inferior to Mages later on (AoE + Range + better/extra utility) and there's already too many rogues.  Unless you're in a guild where you are "it" as the rogue, you're going to be left out.
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And yet you were the one to step up and tank Gandling when I got teleported out of the room until I could get back. YOU I will take anywhere. :)

Rogues in general - Guest - 04-18-2005

Then you dont like maximised groups. Nothing wrong with that at all, but its not how the average player does it.

As a rogue I think most raids are better off with a mage or damage specced warrior.

Rogues in general - playingtokrush - 04-18-2005

Brista,Apr 18 2005, 04:33 AM Wrote:You can do things other classes can't - I've seen 50 Horde players in jitters in the Auction House because we think there's an alliance rogue in the room. This was shortly after the Orgrimmar bankers got killed by rogues, effectively closing the bank for a short while

I don't play on any PvP servers, so I'm not fully clear on the ruleset there, but I was under the impression that you were un-attackable by the other faction in capitol cities unless you flag yourself.

Rogues in general - Tal - 04-18-2005

playingtokrush,Apr 18 2005, 04:08 PM Wrote:I don't play on any PvP servers, so I'm not fully clear on the ruleset there, but I was under the impression that you were un-attackable by the other faction in capitol cities unless you flag yourself.
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Nope instead you are flagged as soon as you enter contested or enemy territory.

Rogues in general - Tal - 04-18-2005

Ghostiger,Apr 18 2005, 03:24 PM Wrote:Then you dont like maximised groups. Nothing wrong with that at all, but its not how the average player does it.

As a rogue I think most raids are better off with a mage  or damage specced warrior.
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I wouldn't necessarily call that a mazimized group. There are definite reasons for having a rogue over a mage or damage specced warrior.

1. Rogue has higher armor and single target sustained DPS than a mage. Rogues in general last longer in "oh sh*t!" moments than a mage.
2. Rogues have higher dps than a damage specc'd warrior. A properly talented warrior can come close but not higher than a rogue. I wouldn't necessarily turn away a damage specc'd warrior in favor of a rogue but I wouldn't be looking for one either.
3. Barring AoE attacks or "oh sh*t!" moments a rogue doesn't have the downtime a mage would have.

Then again I like playing the game casually so I may not be the best person to go to for an answer on this. ;)

Rogues in general - Treesh - 04-18-2005

playingtokrush,Apr 18 2005, 03:08 PM Wrote:I don't play on any PvP servers, so I'm not fully clear on the ruleset there, but I was under the impression that you were un-attackable by the other faction in capitol cities unless you flag yourself.
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You are not automatically flagged when you are in capital cities of your own faction, but the enemy faction is automatically flagged. However, a lot of the time you do have your PvP flag up when you are in your own capital simply because you either flew back on a short flight while you were already flagged or you hearthed while flagged. Edit: Or teleported/portalled while flagged if you are a mage or with a mage. ;)

Rogues in general - liffuie - 04-18-2005

I 've always just viewed the rogue problem for high end as a matter of player skill balance.

in m-c or onyxia, a GOOD player, playing a rogue able to time ae's correctly should be able to easily out dmg little old hunter me. one of my rogue friends last shazrah attempt meelled almost the entire time, being hit by the AE's only twice, dmg easily bandaidble. afterwards we compared total dps for that fight alone and he did quite a bit more then me.

on the other hand, average joe playing a rogue is a liablity unable to avoide ae's, dieing or consuming heals. this type of rogue is easily out dmged by average joe hunter.

seeing as theirs alot more average players, guilds don't wanna take the chance=p

Rogues in general - Malakar - 04-18-2005

russ,Apr 17 2005, 10:32 PM Wrote:For late-game raid instances, Rogues are useful, despite what a good many people think, because they end up doing massive amounts of damage, often two or three times what a mage can do.

Actually, my rogue friends report similar DPS to my fire mage. The difference comes in on the armor of the target - a rogue may do more damage to cloth, but a mage is going to do more to high armored mobs.

Quote:Unfortunatly, they are both very expensive in terms of healing, often taking their own healer for many fights, and too god-damn common.

We've never had a problem keeping aggro off the rogues. There are 3 main things to ensure this. The rogues of course need to use Feint. I once ran into a 60 rogue that didn't even have that skill trained. :blink: If a warrior is MTing, the rogue needs to avoid using Expose Armor. If there's a pally, Salvation the rogues. Why does everyone Might rogues?? And why do pallies always Wisdom me? It seems like I have to ask for Salvation in every pickup group.

Rogues in general - Guest - 04-18-2005

One problem is you have to learn this stuff. You dont learn to deal with AOE while leveling. And learning requires a group.

A learning rogue is far more painful to the group than a learning warrior or mage in Molten Core. I suppose a learning priest is painful, but its a sacrrifice everyone makes because they need the priest.

Rogues in general - playingtokrush - 04-19-2005

Tal,Apr 18 2005, 02:15 PM Wrote:Nope instead you are flagged as soon as you enter contested or enemy territory.
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I know that, but I was referring to being flagged in your own capitol city. I can't imagine most people would have to be worried about being jumped by a rogue in their own cities.