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fire warlock - swirly - 11-04-2005
So I have a 54 warlock who is currently aiming towards MD/Ruin. Ever since I've first created the character there has been something about shadowbolting things that just bugs me though. It just isn't very fun for me. Part of this may be that I previously played a 60 shaman with a warlock friend who spent all her time shadowbolting and so that could have made me lose interest in it. I generally play my warlock with two friends, a mage and a priest. So we spend alot of time AOEing things to death. The priest is a little lazy when we aren't AOEing (and sometimes when we are heh), just tending to be on follow and using instants (renew, shield, pain). So I was thinking about making a fire build so that both the mage (frost/arcane mage. Often uses blizzard when we AOE) and myself could take advantage of the same curse on mobs. The question is though, how effective would a fire build be and what one would be the best? I see two main options for builds.
The first build option is Searing Pain, Soul Fire, Rain of Fire, and Hellfire. Such a build would probably look something like this: Searing Pain Build.
The second build option is Immolate, Soul Fire, Rain of Fire, and Hellfire. Such a build would probably look something like this: Immoalte Build. With the option of going Destructive Reach instead of Improved Firebolt if you wished (I went firebolt just cause its in theme heh).
Now the only imfo I've really found involving these skills is this thread on the amazon basin. It contains a spread sheet with various warlock spell information. Basically it says that Immolate is better damage per second (dps), but worse damage per mana (dpm). Conversely Searing Pain is better dpm, but worse dps. The problem is that the thread generally ignores crits which seems to be a big point of Searing Pain. The thread is also old and so doesn't reflect some changes in spells and such. So its difficult to rely too much on it, the info seems questionable at best to me and even the original author says it needs redone in the last post.
So what I'm wondering is if anybody has any experience with these builds. Both builds do get enough demonology that if I Need to CC with seduce I have it improved, if I need to tank with VW it is improved, and if I need to sac VW repeatedly during AOE I have the near instant summons as well. The Searing Pain one also gets Demonic Sacrifice so it can sacrifice the imp for more fire damage, but the skill does provide other utility as well.
Another question would be what kind of items should I aim for with these builds. Would +fire or +crit gear be better? Would one stat be better for one build and the other for the other, is it a clear decision, or is it a toss up either way? Lots of things to figure out here.
Also, I should state that I never do 40 man raids and so the fire resist in MC is not an issue. My comp just can't handle the amount of people there. I also dont' PvP for a similair reason and so thats not an issue either. This would be entirely for playing with my mage and priest friends plus others we get for instances (usually a shaman and then another random class though we try for tanks).
I would greatly appreciate any advice that can be given on such a character. Just sitting here thinking about it makes me kind of excited to try it and to play the character. I just need to figure out what I'm actually going to do before I respec and such.
fire warlock - Lissa - 11-04-2005
swirly,Nov 4 2005, 10:13 AM Wrote:So I have a 54 warlock who is currently aiming towards MD/Ruin. Ever since I've first created the character there has been something about shadowbolting things that just bugs me though. It just isn't very fun for me. Part of this may be that I previously played a 60 shaman with a warlock friend who spent all her time shadowbolting and so that could have made me lose interest in it. I generally play my warlock with two friends, a mage and a priest. So we spend alot of time AOEing things to death. The priest is a little lazy when we aren't AOEing (and sometimes when we are heh), just tending to be on follow and using instants (renew, shield, pain). So I was thinking about making a fire build so that both the mage (frost/arcane mage. Often uses blizzard when we AOE) and myself could take advantage of the same curse on mobs. The question is though, how effective would a fire build be and what one would be the best? I see two main options for builds.
The first build option is Searing Pain, Soul Fire, Rain of Fire, and Hellfire. Such a build would probably look something like this: Searing Pain Build.
The second build option is Immolate, Soul Fire, Rain of Fire, and Hellfire. Such a build would probably look something like this: Immoalte Build. With the option of going Destructive Reach instead of Improved Firebolt if you wished (I went firebolt just cause its in theme heh).
Now the only imfo I've really found involving these skills is this thread on the amazon basin. It contains a spread sheet with various warlock spell information. Basically it says that Immolate is better damage per second (dps), but worse damage per mana (dpm). Conversely Searing Pain is better dpm, but worse dps. The problem is that the thread generally ignores crits which seems to be a big point of Searing Pain. The thread is also old and so doesn't reflect some changes in spells and such. So its difficult to rely too much on it, the info seems questionable at best to me and even the original author says it needs redone in the last post.
So what I'm wondering is if anybody has any experience with these builds. Both builds do get enough demonology that if I Need to CC with seduce I have it improved, if I need to tank with VW it is improved, and if I need to sac VW repeatedly during AOE I have the near instant summons as well. The Searing Pain one also gets Demonic Sacrifice so it can sacrifice the imp for more fire damage, but the skill does provide other utility as well.
Another question would be what kind of items should I aim for with these builds. Would +fire or +crit gear be better? Would one stat be better for one build and the other for the other, is it a clear decision, or is it a toss up either way? Lots of things to figure out here.
Also, I should state that I never do 40 man raids and so the fire resist in MC is not an issue. My comp just can't handle the amount of people there. I also dont' PvP for a similair reason and so thats not an issue either. This would be entirely for playing with my mage and priest friends plus others we get for instances (usually a shaman and then another random class though we try for tanks).
I would greatly appreciate any advice that can be given on such a character. Just sitting here thinking about it makes me kind of excited to try it and to play the character. I just need to figure out what I'm actually going to do before I respec and such.
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The Immolate fire build can be fun and can do a lot of damage, but, once you hit the raid instances, only Zul'Gurub will allow you to use it to full effect. Too many mobs in Molten Core, Blackwing, and Onyxia and her warders are either high resistant or totally immune to fire. This means that either the Immolate or the Searing Pain build will be severly limited. Also, once you get into raiding, Searing Pain is a bad idea due to the large agro the spell generates and can easily pull the mob away from the tank.
So, while fun, the Immolate build will probably lead to frustration in the raid instances.
fire warlock - swirly - 11-04-2005
Lissa,Nov 4 2005, 12:22 PM Wrote:So, while fun, the Immolate build will probably lead to frustration in the raid instances.
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Which I said wasn't an issue because I can't do them anyway. My computer just simply can't handle the load for the larger raids. So any character I build will be mostly doing strat, scholo, dire maul, lbrs, and brd. I can do ubrs, but I tend not to because the time I did I found it boring. Maybe with a 10 man group instead of 15 it would be more interesting. I've also not been in ZG since it was put in and have very little interest in that. So while I could do it, I probably won't. So yeah, the 40 man fire resistance problem isn't an issue at all.
fire warlock - Icebird - 11-04-2005
I like the Immolate / Conflag build better than the Searing Pain / Demonic Sacrifice build. Immolate a target, spam searing pain a few times, hit em with Conflag. Repeat.
You only need 1 point in Improved Imp - because of the global cooldown, they can't cast faster than once every 1.5 seconds.
I'd put the extra point in Destructive Reach - if you plan to PvP at all, extra range is always nice.
I'd go for items which add damage to all spells, so that it will help your Shadowbolt if you need to use it. (There are fire resistant mobs outside MC).
Chris
fire warlock - Concillian - 11-04-2005
I generally find DS most useful for sacrificing a Void if anything. Extra fire damage is nice, but the extra life is usually more useful. If you want to go with the fire damage for the imp, recast him before a difficult pull. He can add more than 15% until he's out of mana by using firebolt. At the same time reduces your threat generated by splitting the damage.
I've looked at a fire build as mainly a PvP build and ran some numbers.
assuming "base" crit % of 10% + 5% from talents + ruin, as well as level 60:
Shadowbolt is about 211 DPS, 243 with the bonus to shadow in the affliction tree (ignoring occasional improved SB procs)
Searing pain is about 203 DPS with the 10% bonus to fire from the destruction tree and the extra 10% crit.
Immo is about 232 DPS when fully talented (assuming spamming, not counting the DOT damage at all), but you waste a lot of mana when you ignore the DOT... Immo is double the cost of Searing Pain, so if you spam it, it's cost is a full double. It has the advantage of not causing excess aggro though.
Conflag really boosts the damage potential of Immo, but as you note, it requires losing out on DS, which is a huge loss.
Searing pain really is a lesser option. The added threat makes it very difficult to use in PvE and in PvP you are usually much less concerned about mana efficiency, so Immo is generally better in both cases. In PvE though, the mana efficiency of Immo is quite bad, which may have you wanting to cast SB or SP in-between immos anyway.
As you add +damage gear, SP starts creeping up on Immo (again, ignoring the DOT portion). Even though Immo is a 2.0s cast spell, it splits the bonus between the DOT and the instant damage. SP's +10% crit chance synergizes nicely with +dam, so SP gets good benefit from +dam. Ignoring improved SB procs, SP gets the largest benefit from +dam in terms of %DPS improvement because of the synergy of +damage with +%crit. SB is pretty close though, and imp. SB procs might push it ahead if that was taken into account on the figures. Immo only does well with +dam if you consider the DOT portion, and if you care about DPS, you'll be spamming it or doing Immo once, then moving to SB.
This all, of course, assumes my math is right. No DS bonuses were figured in here, because I would generally sac a void to get the life that can be turned into mana so we can kep things moving and I don't need to be sitting and drinking or trading priest mana for my own.
fire warlock - swirly - 11-04-2005
So everyone seems to be saying that the immolate build is the one to go with. Thats good because I went ahead and respected to it and then killed some mobs solo (did part of a warlock quest in the blasted lands). From that very limited play I feel that I like the play style better than the old build. So I think I will stick with Immolate and Conflagrate.
While playing I did notice burning through mana really fast and so I'm thinking about adding some options for when I don't want to do that. I figure that the demonology points I have in the build probably wouldn't be too painful to lose. Mainly I would lose instant pets and seduce time. Instant pets are handy, but I think that I can deal with not having them in most situations. The seduce time is also a nice thing to have, but it also can be done without. Both of those losses feel like things I'll probably notice the lack of, but can get used to with time.
The new build I am considering is: New Immolate Build. This one takes the points out of Improved Fireball and ShadowBurn. I know that ShadowBurn is good added dps when you can use it, but I just find that I forget about it too much. It then takes those 3 points and 2 others from the demonology tree to get 5 in Searing Pain. I figure that going this way I have the choice of which to use or in what combination to use them. So it gives me more freedom to adjust to a given situation or just to my mood at a given moment which is something I like being able to do.
I then take 7 more points out of Demonology to get Improved Corruption and Improved Life Tap from affliction. Anytime I solo I tend to find that I like to dot things and so the Improved Corruption helps with that and I also figure it will be decent in groups as well though mobs may die too quick for it to really work right. An instant dot usually isn't a bad thing as long as you don't put it on CC'ed things which generally isn't a problem in my normal group.
I've also always kind of had my eye on Improved Life Tap. I really like how it breaks the synergy of the spell some. No longer is it a 1:1 trade of life for mana, now I get more mana for the same amount of life. Seems like a much better deal (not that I didn't use the old one alot as well heh). I also get to keep the increased stamina in Demonology as well as the better taunts and shields for my VW when I need them. So I'm feeling much more comfortable with this build, though it will require me paying for another respect even though I just did one. : )
It also seems like people are suggesting +damage gear (whether its straight damage or fire may still be up for grabs) which also seems like a decent plan to me. The only problem I kind of see with it is that it may make it hard to find suggestions for items. Fire builds aren't really common because of MC and such and so items that are good for them don't get discussed. I suppose places that discuss PvP may have some info, but overall I'll probably be on my own in figuring out what items to aim for from the 60 instances. Should be interesting trying to figure that out.
fire warlock - Concillian - 11-04-2005
There are very few sources of specifically +fire damage for equipment.
Most +damage is generic, and will apply to fire or shadow.
fire warlock - LochnarITB - 11-05-2005
swirly,Nov 4 2005, 01:47 PM Wrote:Which I said wasn't an issue because I can't do them anyway. My computer just simply can't handle the load for the larger raids.Not really the topic, but are you sure? Here is a thread where some suggestions were made for me. For tanks and healers, lag really is a killer. But, being ranged DPS, you can still be effective at low frame rates. The lag you see is video lag. The game still responds to the keyboard so that, if you are positioned and targeted (the slideshow comes when the spell effects start flying), you can still contribute to the damage. Turning off the sound (ctrl-s) has the most apparent boost for me. I would hate to see you rule out the big instances due to your hardware. As someone that was sure I would hate big raids, I must say that I am having a blast on our Avarice raids on Stormrage. I am now fretting that I will not be able to participate in raiding BWL because I have heard that it is the worst lagfest yet. :(
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fire warlock - swirly - 11-05-2005
LochnarITB,Nov 5 2005, 06:11 AM Wrote:Not really the topic, but are you sure?
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I'll give you my computer specs: P3 800, 256 ram, GeForce4 MX graphics card. I'll admit I haven't tried it and so its possible that once the comp did manage to load everyone (which would take about 10 minutes heh) that it would then be at least good enough to move, but I really really doubt it. Usually when alot of people are around I am stuck not being able to move at all. Then if I get lucky enough to have any control it is just enough to hit a direction, run in a straight line, and hope I hit a wall instead of something that will kill me before I get some more control. I should probably give it a try sometime just to be absolutely sure, but there are other factors as well. Like that where I have 60's I don't really want to join the one raiding guild I know people in. I just hear too much drama and complaints. I have a good number of friends there that have always been trying to get me to join and so if I did leave my own personal guild then that would be the one probably, but I just can't see myself doing it for what I consider to be a very slim chance that I could operate at all in a 40 man raid. Oh and another thing that happens sometimes when there are too many peopel around, my game will freeze trying to load everything and then eventually it will jus tdisconnect me. My theory on this one is that my computer gets so far behind in processing things that it doesn't get a communication off to the server in enough time to keep me as logged into it. So yeah, its not just when the fireworks go off. In most cases its not a slideslow either, its just straight locking up for 5 minutes or so. So yeah, I've pretty much given up on 40 man raids.
fire warlock - TheWesson - 11-05-2005
swirly,Nov 5 2005, 05:48 AM Wrote:I'll give you my computer specs: P3 800, 256 ram, GeForce4 MX graphics card. I'll admit I haven't tried it and so its possible that once the comp did manage to load everyone (which would take about 10 minutes heh) that it would then be at least good enough to move, but I really really doubt it. Usually when alot of people are around I am stuck not being able to move at all. Then if I get lucky enough to have any control it is just enough to hit a direction, run in a straight line, and hope I hit a wall instead of something that will kill me before I get some more control. I should probably give it a try sometime just to be absolutely sure, but there are other factors as well. Like that where I have 60's I don't really want to join the one raiding guild I know people in. I just hear too much drama and complaints. I have a good number of friends there that have always been trying to get me to join and so if I did leave my own personal guild then that would be the one probably, but I just can't see myself doing it for what I consider to be a very slim chance that I could operate at all in a 40 man raid. Oh and another thing that happens sometimes when there are too many peopel around, my game will freeze trying to load everything and then eventually it will jus tdisconnect me. My theory on this one is that my computer gets so far behind in processing things that it doesn't get a communication off to the server in enough time to keep me as logged into it. So yeah, its not just when the fireworks go off. In most cases its not a slideslow either, its just straight locking up for 5 minutes or so. So yeah, I've pretty much given up on 40 man raids.
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Your main problem there is probably just way not enough RAM. Someplace crowded like Orgrimmar, WoW (+Windows) uses almost 700 meg of RAM from my informal observations. If your drive activity LED is on steadily or blinking like mad when you encounter these slowdowns, then RAM shortage is the chief issue.
I have a pretty decent machine but it was chugging a bit in crowded areas with 512 MB RAM. Now that I'm at one gig, it's much smoother. Forcing virtual RAM usage (hence disk swapping) due to RAM shortage is the worst performance killer. CPU load and video processor load you can probably deal with by cutting way back on video settings.
I don't know if you have the option to install more RAM, I'm just throwing in my 2 c/ here. Having 512M total would probably be a vast improvement in playability.
fire warlock - swirly - 11-06-2005
TheWesson,Nov 5 2005, 05:51 PM Wrote:I don't know if you have the option to install more RAM, I'm just throwing in my 2 c/ here. Having 512M total would probably be a vast improvement in playability.
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I have the slots for more ram available, but 0 income and so no money to actually be able to get any. If I did have income I would prob just save it for a whole new comp anyway, this one is mighty old.
fire warlock - LochnarITB - 11-06-2005
swirly,Nov 5 2005, 07:48 AM Wrote:I'll give you my computer specs: P3 800, 256 ram, GeForce4 MX graphics card..... So yeah, I've pretty much given up on 40 man raids.Sorry to hear that, but I think you are right. As has already been said, your real problem is RAM. 1 Gig would be a completely different game for you. Your graphics card is actually a step up from mine. Mine is a GeForce4 420 Go 32M, the laptop (slower/less power) version of yours. One other thing. With that amount of memory, I would guess you're not running many, if any, mods. If you are able to run mods, CT_Mods has one called CT_Viewport that allows you to shrink the actual gameplay area without affecting the UI. I shrunk mine about an inch around all the edges, so that all the buttons are in the black border, and that seems to have boosted my framerate a little more too. Even with all my graphics settings turned to the minimum, WoW still looks pretty good, just not as polished as I see from some of the screenshots people take with monster machines.
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fire warlock - swirly - 11-06-2005
LochnarITB,Nov 6 2005, 04:01 AM Wrote:I would guess you're not running many, if any, mods.
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In the past I have run a few mods like lootlink, enchantrix, and recap. Since the last patch I've just been running with none of them at all though. Since the lag is mainly in crowded areas (or for a few seconds when somebody comes around us while out questing) its not too bad for normal play. Just expect lag when hitting places like ORG, UC, IF, SW, Gadget, BB, XR, and Menthil. Those are the main offenders that come to mind. Adding mods doesn't really seem to hurt much which I figure is because no matter if I have mods or not, loading things will have to hit my harddrive and so slow me down. So since it happens either way, the mods don't change much. Its kind of like I hit rock bottom in performance and so can't go much lower. : )
I did try the "-notnl" setting and then went into a WSG game. When I tried that with my shaman, I pretty much couldn't leave the home base or else get hit with lag until I was dead and of course if more than 3 people (estimate) came on offence I lagged too hard as well. Now it seems that I can wonder the map more and actually get some hits in on guys, though I still lag too much to really try and get the flag. At least I now feel I'm usefully able to kill guys. This may be attributed to one of the patches where I recall it said that they improved performance in groups or it may have to do with the "-notnl" setting. Its a welcome change though.
I may have to look into the mod you suggested. See if it helps any as well.
fire warlock - castille - 11-07-2005
Have you tried turning off things like player and pet names? I found that that particular piece cut out a LOT of lag I was experiencing in some areas like Ironforge -- since the game doesn't have to track specific things to show them to you, it's a bit easier on your machine...
fire warlock - Tommi - 11-08-2005
One of the nicest fire warlock builds is this one:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classe...550105102505151
What makes it nice is the idea of "no shards required." The build will just use the imp, and it has an instant dot as well (Corruption).
fire warlock - swirly - 11-11-2005
So I've done some of BRD and DM with the build and I'm still liking it. I find that I never even glance at Searing Pain though and thus am wanting to get rid of those points. I figure I will move two over to Destructive Reach and I decided that ShadowBurn is too valuable to do without. So those three points let me continue down the tree. I also notice that we never use my VW as main tank anymore and that I rare sac it to shield. Usually its just an offtank and for that it doesn't really need to be improved, though having the option for more with it isn't necessarily bad. I'm just wavering on those points. So here is the current build with all the skills I know I want. I'm happy with pretty much everything in that build, but I have 5 points left to place that I am unsure about. So options:
Aftermath
I've always considered this a bad skill. 10% to daze..not stun, but daze....just seems bad. There is one consideration for it though. Some friends of mine have been dragging me WSG lately. One of the things I like to do is lay down a Rain of Fire i nthe path of flag carriers hoping that it will stun them or anybody following if the carrier is on my team. In this case the daze effect would still be useful. Basically daze feels like something that is useful for PvP, but not for PvE. Since I'm being dragged to PvP a good amount I'm debating it.
Imp
Another option is to improve my imp. This would result in more life from his buff and him doing more damage. Not sure how much his damage matters though and while the buff is nice, I'm not sure I've ever really noticed it as making a difference. Generally in instances I'll run around with a VW or a Succubus out just in case of adds or something going wrong. They give me an option to offtank or seduce as needed. Since I no longer have instant pets I need to be ready ahead if time and so, even if I'm not using them, I usually have them ready. Thus I'm kind of unsure about putting the points in making my Imp better. Like aftermath, it would help in PvP though because after a while I usually end up losing my pet and then I just play with the Imp that I get on resurrection.
Others
Other options would be improving my VW, Improved Drain Life, Improved Health Stones, Improved Shadow bolt....actually I just thought of the shadow bolt one. Putting 5 there would give me a decent option for when fighting fire immunes. Not a horrible idea. That should probably be put up there with the other main ones I suppose, but I'm not adding it cause I'm lazy. : ) Something to consider though.
So basically I'm still debating my last 5 points. My lock is 56 currently and so I have 1 point unspent and more will build as I level. The unspent points don't hurt me that much really though because all these choices are kidn of extra things instead of effecting the main build. I'm just unsure where to put the points.
fire warlock - Concillian - 11-11-2005
swirly,Nov 11 2005, 08:27 AM Wrote:Others
Other options would be improving my VW, Improved Drain Life, Improved Health Stones, Improved Shadow bolt....actually I just thought of the shadow bolt one. Putting 5 there would give me a decent option for when fighting fire immunes. Not a horrible idea. That should probably be put up there with the other main ones I suppose, but I'm not adding it cause I'm lazy. : ) Something to consider though.
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Imp. Shadow bolt isn't all that useful unless you're spamming SB, IMO
I'd say Void for PvP AoE. Especially if you're with a group. A void shield basically enables the use of Hellfire with only a small penalty, It's the highest DPS AoE skill available, and it's much less noticeable than IAE. You can really disrupt the other team through use of Hellfire. If your own team also has a mage who you're coordinating with, it's incredibly powerful. You can both go in together and the mage with IAE usually draws first attention, giving you some time to Hellfire uninterrupted.
That's my preference, since three points adds quite significantly to the power of the voidy sacrifice shield, and you get res'ed with a free void everytime anyway. Just have to watch out for priests who will dispel it. Sometimes you get attentive priests who will dispel in group situations, but usually thy are focusing on their own group members. I generally only find it an issue in 1v1 or 2v2 scenarios where a priest will dispel the shield.
I would avoid improved drain life without having the uninterruption talent. Seems kind of pointless to me.
fire warlock - Drasca - 11-13-2005
Get rid of Pyroclasm from your build. It still doesn't work. Aftermath is also clearly a talent to avoid (completely useless even if it does proc).
Really depends on how much you like your imp. 1pt Firebolt, 3 Improved imp = 99 dps imp, with extra health for your party. I think he's about 55 dps without. If you want firepower, go this route.
Conc's right about Drain life being useless without Fel Conc, and how useful improved VW for sac is.
Searing pain should be your 'in-between' immolate conflag cycle spell CoEl [immo/sp/sp/conflag], but that is up to your personal playstyle, and also an aggro nightmare.
Suppression isn't a bad choice given you'll likely be in UBRS soon, and makes death coil viable.
fire warlock - Bob the Beholder - 11-13-2005
Pyroclasm doesn't work? In what way? I've seen it proc, recently. And even fairly often, since it's now listed to work with Soulfire. One hit, 26 percent chance to stun. I've seen it a couple of times in a row, even.
fire warlock - Zippyy - 11-18-2005
Bob the Beholder,Nov 12 2005, 11:45 PM Wrote:Pyroclasm doesn't work? In what way? I've seen it proc, recently. And even fairly often, since it's now listed to work with Soulfire. One hit, 26 percent chance to stun. I've seen it a couple of times in a row, even.It's not that it doesnt work, it's that the tooltip is unclear. Adding the stun effect to soulfire was a wonderful change coupled with 4 second casting time. As for the AoE's (Rain of Fire and Hellfire), one assumption when reading the tooltip was that it had a 26% chance to stun on each tick. That would have been good, and probably overpowered, especially with Hellfire (8 mobs, 15 ticks, 3120% chance to stun!:P). What it actually did was apply the 26% on the first tick, apparently. Clearly an awful talent! So, in 1.8 when they added soulfire (good!) to the list, they also spread the 26% out across each tick of the AoE's, giving each tick of hellfire a .73% chance to stun. So unless you use soulfire a lot, it's still a waste of two points.
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