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+--- Thread: Sustained Hunter DPS vs. a single target (/thread-4967.html)
Sustained Hunter DPS vs. a single target - Shriek - 01-20-2006
I've always favored faster, smoother damage delivery. As such, I've never much cared for Aimed Shot--everyone was so enamored with its huge crits, but all my calculations told me it was inferior, in both dps and mana efficiency, to Arcane Shot. Then 1.7 comes out, and I take a break from the game...
Now, it seems, Aimed Shot no longer has any competition. It shoots in a flat three seconds, and it no longer resets the timer on autoshot. Based on the studies I've seen (I confess, I have not yet done the math myself), this is making slower bows vastly better for sustained dps, not just big crits for PvP. The numbers point to the Carapace Spine Crossbow stomping Hurricane (which has a higher DPS) into the ground. The CSX beats Striker's Mark, an MC drop. The CSX even appears to beat Rhok'delar, our epic quest bow. Is this right? Is CSX the new Noob-Cannon?
What does this tell me? Something is broken. They may put a fixed speed on Aimed, a la the melee fix; they may make Aimed reset the autoshot timer again, but Blizzard will fix it, and the forums will cry nerf. I won't, because I want to see a reason to use faster bows, but I truly do hope they find an appropriate way to compensate dps--I'm really happy with how my hunter plays right now.
But for right now, I'm choosing to spend my DKPs on set gear rather than a Striker's. Anyone else have any input on the matter?
A fairly detailed thread on the stuff from the forums
Sustained Hunter DPS vs. a single target - Quark - 01-20-2006
Shriek,Jan 20 2006, 01:11 PM Wrote:But for right now, I'm choosing to spend my DKPs on set gear rather than a Striker's. Anyone else have any input on the matter?
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Short note: Striker's Mark really takes a hit for Hunter desire once you're clearing Domo and Onyxia.
Gun favorites have Golemagg's Blastershot while Bow users have the hunter epic -> both slower.
I think Aimed Shot, not exactly being an "instant cast", might be better served by having an addition to the shot time (instead of a set time), and keep the regular DPS bonus instead of a set bonus like Backstab's 1.7. But yes, in the interests of itemization, Hunter skills should be switched just like Warrior/Rogue ones were so that slower weapons aren't so favored.
Sustained Hunter DPS vs. a single target - Mirajj - 01-21-2006
I find, as I wander through my sessions, that unless Aimed Shot crits (with any weapon) it wasn't worth the lost DPS due to windup. So I'm one of the hunters who uses Aimed rarely, even with my Marks spec. The most use my Aimed sees is when I'm in PvP, sniping things. Makes a nice opener, especially if it does (I'm at about 30% crit now) do a nice 2500+ crit.
Sustained Hunter DPS vs. a single target - MongoJerry - 01-21-2006
It's not just Aimed Shot that benefits from slow weapons. It's also Multi-shot, which is instant cast and is a staple of most hunters, particularly in PvP.
Sustained Hunter DPS vs. a single target - oldmandennis - 01-23-2006
I haven't done the math myself, but the hunters in our guild claim that the Striker's is actually worse then the ancient bone bow. I think it's mostly for rogues and dual wield warriors.
Sustained Hunter DPS vs. a single target - Shriek - 01-23-2006
Mirajj,Jan 20 2006, 11:08 PM Wrote:I find, as I wander through my sessions, that unless Aimed Shot crits (with any weapon) it wasn't worth the lost DPS due to windup.[right][snapback]99794[/snapback][/right]This is how I felt when Aimed was a longer cast and reset the autoshot timer. Now, it takes a flat three seconds (which is only about .5-1 second longer than standard rate-of-fire), and an autoshot will fire immediately after the Aimed goes off--no delay. It seems that even if it didn't add ANY damage, you'd still be coming out ahead.
Note: My experience here is casual observation. I haven't analyzed my logs and I haven't done explicit tests with stopwatches and such. I want to, but there's always something else I need to do :P
And yes, Multi rocks. I've used it whenever possible since I learned it, with most hunters I talked to thinking it was a silly skill. Just gotta watch those sheep....
Sustained Hunter DPS vs. a single target - martini - 01-23-2006
Shriek,Jan 22 2006, 09:51 PM Wrote:This is how I felt when Aimed was a longer cast and reset the autoshot timer. Now, it takes a flat three seconds (which is only about .5-1 second longer than standard rate-of-fire), and an autoshot will fire immediately after the Aimed goes off--no delay. It seems that even if it didn't add ANY damage, you'd still be coming out ahead. I think I'm going to have to work Aimed back into my repertoire, since I'm one of those who effectively discarded it for PvE work when its windup was more prohibitive. But seeing the numbers and the "10s cycle", I think I need to do some testing with it.
Note: My experience here is casual observation. I haven't analyzed my logs and I haven't done explicit tests with stopwatches and such. I want to, but there's always something else I need to do :P
And yes, Multi rocks. I've used it whenever possible since I learned it, with most hunters I talked to thinking it was a silly skill. Just gotta watch those sheep....
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It's a little surprising that the melee weapons relying too much on weapon speed was fixed, but the ranged ones haven't yet. Wouldn't be surprised to see some "normalization" for us in the future.
Sustained Hunter DPS vs. a single target - chippydip - 01-24-2006
Shriek,Jan 23 2006, 01:51 AM Wrote:This is how I felt when Aimed was a longer cast and reset the autoshot timer. Now, it takes a flat three seconds (which is only about .5-1 second longer than standard rate-of-fire), and an autoshot will fire immediately after the Aimed goes off--no delay. It seems that even if it didn't add ANY damage, you'd still be coming out ahead.
[right][snapback]99882[/snapback][/right]
Agreed. As it is now, I believe the best weapon speed is as close to 3 seconds as possible without going over. I've found that I can start a fight with an instant cast shot (multi or a sting) and then hit Aimed right after the accompanying autoshot. While I'm waiting for the Aimed shot to go off (3 seconds) my autoshot is rewinding as well so I get another autoshot immediately after the aimed shot. Then, during the 6 second cooldown on Aimed, I get another 2 autoshots. Multi can be thrown in during the Aimed cooldown when its available and with an autoshot cooldown close to 3s the Aimed shot is basically pure icing on top of what I would be doing with autoshot alone.
When I hit lvl 53 with my hunter (now lvl 57) I happily scraped together the cash to buy a Dwarven Hand Cannon, thinking I would be using that well into the end game. Then I managed to not only get into an AV game, but actually end up on the winning team and scored myself a Bloodseeker! Why so happy? Well, actually I wasn't all that happy once I realized I had just wasted about 400 gold, but I switched to the Bloodseeker and havent gone back. Here's why:
The average damage on the DHC is 101 (including the fire damage) while the average damage of Bloodseeker is 106.5. Not a whole lot extra, but I also get the +7 Agil from the Bloodseeker (which is another 1dps, plus a fraction of a crit, etc), plus a larger RAP bonus due to the slow weapon speed. The best part, though, is that the 3.3 speed Bloodseeker drops to just under 3s with my quiver speed bonus, so with either weapon I'm getting 3 autoshots per Aimed, but the Bloodseeker is putting out more damage in each of those autoshots as well as more bonus damaged with Aimed and Multi. (not bad for a weapon that lists a lower DPS ;-))
Looking at all the weapons on thottbot's ranged weapon page, I'd say that Ashjre'thul is easily the best ranged weapon in the game currently. With the speed bonus of the epic quiver, its 3.4 speed should drop to just under 3s, giving you 3 monster autoshots between each Aimed shot. With the potential damage there, its a good thing we have FD to wipe aggro or a lot of the potential damage might end up going to waste.
In fact, it just occured to me (after reading that recent thread about warrior aggro) that it might be beneficial in some cases for hunters to pull with: Aimed, auto, Multi, FD (after the warrior taunts). If taunt really does match threat with the highest target, that would be a very nice boots for that tank to start the fight with and would make it easy for the DPS and healers to get started right away without any worry of pulling aggro. Of course, if either the taunt or the FD was resisted the hunter would be pushing up daisies very quickly, but at least he died a noble death for a good cause ;-)
P.S. Speaking of wierd hunter gear numbers: After looking at both epic hunter sets, I'm fairly convinced that full Giantstalker is better than Dragonstalker from a pure DPS perspective. Dragonstalker provides about 5dps more than Giantstalker from the extra 19 agil and 1% crit, but the full-set bonus for Giantstalker is a 15% damage boost to Mult which seems like it would be a much bigger damage boost overall (if average autoshot damage is > 214, then the 15% bonus is going to be over 50 damage per multi, which is comperable to the extra Dragonstalker dps).
Sustained Hunter DPS vs. a single target - Lissa - 01-24-2006
Shriek,Jan 22 2006, 06:51 PM Wrote:This is how I felt when Aimed was a longer cast and reset the autoshot timer. Now, it takes a flat three seconds (which is only about .5-1 second longer than standard rate-of-fire), and an autoshot will fire immediately after the Aimed goes off--no delay. It seems that even if it didn't add ANY damage, you'd still be coming out ahead.
Note: My experience here is casual observation. I haven't analyzed my logs and I haven't done explicit tests with stopwatches and such. I want to, but there's always something else I need to do :P
And yes, Multi rocks. I've used it whenever possible since I learned it, with most hunters I talked to thinking it was a silly skill. Just gotta watch those sheep....
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My standard firing procedure on Lissanna is:
Aimed Shot, Multishot, Serpent Sting/Scorpid Sting/Viper Sting depending on mob type and whether boss or not.
My crit is also up around 30%. I also FD a lot to clear my agro.
Sustained Hunter DPS vs. a single target - Rudishoes - 01-24-2006
I'm not sure I buy the theory that slower=better when you're talking about two weapons with equal max damage. The claim that Bloodseeker outdamages something like Striker's Mark just doesn't make too much sense. Sure, AP is going to factor in to it, but it seems logical that the extra shot or two you get in is going to make up for the difference in total damage, even with instant-spell spamming.