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looting guidelines for raid officers - Ynir - 03-10-2006
Spangles is an officer and a raidmaster for her guild. I have been asked to set up procedures for an organized raiding program. Our looting rules are the standard ones. I need help with writing guidelines for raiding officers that will avoid loot disputes.
We are a small guild, we all know and like each other, and I have never seen looting become an issue on a raid. The point, however, is for the raid officer to have a "fire extinguisher" handy in case of an emergency.
I am interested in hearing about the ethics and practicality of the points listed below.
___________________________
Looting:
Problems can arise because of ambiguous situations when loot appears.
Looting is controlled by the usual rules. BOE roll greed. BOP, pass and random, or roll need if the item is an upgrade or part of your set.
Most raiding in 1.10 will be in 5 player groups. Most groups will not have more than one member in a given class. The "one set item" rule will be effectively obsolete.
I propose the following guidelines for raid officers:
The fewer rules the better. Nobody wants to get bogged down in loot fights caused by unenforceable rules. I personally am totally incapable of keeping track of who needs, or gets, or got what. When in doubt, let the numbers decide.
There should be a very short list of one-per-customer items: orbs, skin of shadow, chromatic scales, stitchings. All of these have uses besides epic armor quests. Crafts and librams use them also. All members should have access to them, and be allowed to sell them if they want.
When the one-per-customer rule will be applied, it should be announced at the beginning of the raid.
Designating items for various classes (i.e. dark runes for healers) may be logical but is very dangerous. Any arbitrary rule becomes a flashpoint for fights. A dark rune (a crafts item for dark rune armor, btw) may be all a member has to show for an evening's work. Let the random number generator make loot decisons whenever possible.
Do not make snap decisions about who may roll need for blues. One of our druids is still annoyed that she was not allowed to roll for a weapon with +healing because the officer arbitrarily told her a pally must get it. She is not put out that the pally took it, but that she was not allowed to roll. If the wrong class tries mistakenly to roll for an obviously inappropriate item you make a call. Otherwise, stay out of it.
Don't make subtle distinctions about "what is better for the guild" when two or more classes have a plausible claim for an item. Nobody knows that the winner might not quit the next day. Always be as inclusive as possible in rolling. For example: "All melee classes can roll for this." Any outcome is better than a loot fight.
Nobody is allowed to roll need for their alts. Everybody has lots of alts, so everyone would always need everything, and the whole looting system would disintegrate.
The worst possible event in a raid is the world drop. An epic appears, and everyone is crazed with greed. Former friends are happy to kill one another for this bauble.
There is only one fair way to distribute a BOE epic: everybody roll need. The need roll prevents a deliberate or accidental ninja loot. Do not get involved in deciding if one class can make better use of the object than another. Any class can use a few hundred gold from auctioning the item, if they can't equip it. Don't pressure the winner to be noble and give it away. Congratulate the winner and move on. End of story.
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Most of this seems to be applied common sense, to me.
The only argument I have seen concerns the last paragraph concerning world drop epics.
Mine is not the conventional wisdom, roughly paraphrased as:
"... I firmly believe it should go Need Before Greed (equip onsite). It removes the greed factor before it becomes a problem. "
I disagree here. The ambiguity, in my mind, lies in interpreting Need. Does a warrior need a Krol blade more than a healer needs a staff that can be bought by auctioning the blade, for example?
If a BOE world drop occurs, a truly random event, as opposed to loot that is expected in a given instance, nobody in the group should have a better chance to get it because of their class.
If an item drops that is 500g at the AH, it is worth that amount to any group member, and all should have an equal chance at it.
There is no reason to force the winner to equip it. It is not "better for the guild" for a priest to be forced to equip a priest's necklace instead of selling it to buy an epic mount, or better gear.
Besides, "the guild" had nothing to do with the drop. "The guild" did not go into the instance with the purpose of obtaining a world drop epic. Those can occur anywhere, anytime, to anyone.
An immediate need roll by the entire party decides who gets 500g or the epic, whichever they want. The minute you get involved in deciding who is more worthy of 500g you are in deep trouble.
Try to suspend belief that the best solution is always for everyone to decide who would benefit the most. Some of our guildies are, literally, children, and behave accordingly. Other raid members may be guests who consider their own agenda only.
Your comments on these issues are most welcome.
looting guidelines for raid officers - Artega - 03-10-2006
If it's BOE, it's greeded by all classes, regardless. It could be the best possible weapon for a Rogue in the entire game ever to happen to be created, but that Rogue is still going to roll greed for it (though rolling Need does make it less likely to be ninja'd.)
If it's BOP, it's rolled Need by classes that can use it - regardless of their current spec or preference to other classes - if they want it, and greeded by everyone else. Shamans and Paladins have just as much right to that Draconian Deflector as that Warrior does, regardless if the Warrior will see more use out of it.
Also: You used third-person to speak about Spangles as being an officer in the guild, then switched to first-person to speak about yourself playing as Spangles as the guild officer. Just a tad bit confusing :P
looting guidelines for raid officers - Dozer - 03-10-2006
Look at this item.
http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=2243
That mace, on a shaman, completely changes the way a shaman plays in a 5-man group; you can't put a price on it. That being said, I think that an immediate roll of need on any world drop is the best way. However, if you guys are truly friends it should go to the person that could use the item. Gold is just gold; world drop epics are once-in-a-lifetime.
looting guidelines for raid officers - Ynir - 03-10-2006
Artega,Mar 10 2006, 09:32 PM Wrote:Also: You used third-person to speak about Spangles as being an officer in the guild, then switched to first-person to speak about yourself playing as Spangles as the guild officer. Just a tad bit confusing :P
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Your confusion is caused by my confusion. :lol:
There is another layer of abstraction: Me writing about myself playing as Spangles, who is a guild officer. It's like thinking about thinking about thinking.
looting guidelines for raid officers - MongoJerry - 03-11-2006
Ynir,Mar 10 2006, 02:21 PM Wrote:There is only one fair way to distribute a BOE epic: everybody roll need. The need roll prevents a deliberate or accidental ninja loot. Do not get involved in deciding if one class can make better use of the object than another. Any class can use a few hundred gold from auctioning the item, if they can't equip it. Don't pressure the winner to be noble and give it away. Congratulate the winner and move on. End of story.
I disagree strongly with this principle. Anyone who will make good use of the item should be allowed to roll need on it. The cavaet is that the person must equip the item right then and there for all to see so that everyone knows it's not being sent to the auction house. The claim that people "need" the money sold from an epic boe is as false as similar claims for blues and greens. If you need money, go farm for it. Don't take away special item drops from those in the party who would make good use of them.
looting guidelines for raid officers - Artega - 03-11-2006
MongoJerry,Mar 10 2006, 08:47 PM Wrote:I disagree strongly with this principle. Anyone who will make good use of the item should be allowed to roll need on it. The cavaet is that the person must equip the item right then and there for all to see so that everyone knows it's not being sent to the auction house. The claim that people "need" the money sold from an epic boe is as false as similar claims for blues and greens. If you need money, go farm for it. Don't take away special item drops from those in the party who would make good use of them.
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Sorry, I'd rather leave that to the random number generator. As Ynir said, everyone could use a few hundred gold (or more, depending on what it is), and that few hundred gold could buy an epic mount for someone who doesn't already have one.
If someone in the raid needs it for their gear, they can buy it off the person that won it :)
EDIT: About farming: maybe you have the time for it, but I prefer to get things done when I find time to play. Very rarely, farming will actually be that thing that I want to get done, but that's very rare - usually I'll want to get an instance or two done, or a solid night of WSG and AB.
looting guidelines for raid officers - Arnath - 03-11-2006
Artega,Mar 10 2006, 09:02 PM Wrote:Sorry, I'd rather leave that to the random number generator. As Ynir said, everyone could use a few hundred gold (or more, depending on what it is), and that few hundred gold could buy an epic mount for someone who doesn't already have one.For in-guild raids, I'm with Mongo on this one. I think a world drop BoE is of more use to the guild being actively used by someone than as gold in someone's bank.
If someone in the raid needs it for their gear, they can buy it off the person that won it :)
EDIT: About farming: maybe you have the time for it, but I prefer to get things done when I find time to play. Very rarely, farming will actually be that thing that I want to get done, but that's very rare - usually I'll want to get an instance or two done, or a solid night of WSG and AB.
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Arnath
looting guidelines for raid officers - MongoJerry - 03-11-2006
Artega,Mar 10 2006, 07:02 PM Wrote:Sorry, I'd rather leave that to the random number generator. As Ynir said, everyone could use a few hundred gold (or more, depending on what it is), and that few hundred gold could buy an epic mount for someone who doesn't already have one.
The same argument could be made for blues and greens. By your argument, no one could claim a "need" on a blue item that could be useful to the person's class, because everyone in the raid could use the item for cash or large brilliant shards. For me, there's no difference whether the item is blue, green or purple. If a person will make good use of the item and will equip the item at that moment, that person can claim a need on the item. If a person would just sell the item on the AH, then they can only roll greed on the item if nobody in the party will use the item themselves. This is true for me whether it's a guild group or a pug, and I have enforced this rule in pug groups at least three times that I can recall.
If a purple item will not be used by anyone in the group, another option for a small group that trusts each other is simply to sell the item and divide the proceeds. This doesn't work well with larger raids, but in 5-man groups, it works well. I was in one 5-man LBRS group that found a Krol Blade almost a year ago, and we had the blade sold while we were in still in the dungeon (one of the guys knew someone who would pay the going rate for Krol blades).
looting guidelines for raid officers - Zarathustra - 03-11-2006
I don't care for the rule of BoE epics being automatic "greed" rolls for all involved, especially if this is a GUILD RUN. If a character is lucky enough to not only see a purple drop, but one that he can USE immediately, I say he's welcome to roll need. The one caveat is that he must equip it immediately to show that he's not about to run off and put it in the AH.
looting guidelines for raid officers - Xame - 03-13-2006
I have to go with the "everyone greed" a BOE epic if it is <50 lvl. Above lvl 50 these items are your end game set and should be rolled on by true need. The low level epics are pure twinking gear and their prices have no place in reality. When a single AH sale will upgrade all of your equipment and you still have cash to bank, the economics are a little off the wall. Especially when you will toss the epic for a lvl 60 blue with better stats in a few weeks. But above lvl 50, gold is important but not as much as getting a great epic. A > lvl 50 epic is game changing.
Thus the logic works out as: No one NEEDs twinker gear, but people NEED end game raiding gear. Yes the problem with the logic is "what is twinking gear" but this is pretty simple if you just look at the item (ie. there exists an easy to get lvl 60 blue that is better).
looting guidelines for raid officers - Tuftears - 03-14-2006
Yeah, I'd much, much rather see a BOE epic, especially one 50+, go to use on one of the people in the party, rather than playing the AH game. People > money.
This is not to say people should be forced to use it if they wouldn't normally, in that case, it's fine to sell it on the AH and split the money between those there, or (as I would prefer to do) 'free to good home' it within the guild or alliance. But well, purples are rare, purples can be quite powerful, they should be benefiting your friends A lot of people have aversions to buying purples off of the AH or even other people.
Think of it this way, what makes a better story: "I got this Alcor's Sunrazor in AQ20! We were just ganking some swarmguards and zomg this popped up!" or "Bought it off the AH, 600g" ?
looting guidelines for raid officers - Artega - 03-14-2006
I'd say the second one - you could turn that Sunrazor around for twice that cost, more than likely :P
looting guidelines for raid officers - Rinnhart - 03-15-2006
If I know you or it's a guild group, I have no problem letting you take an epic based upon need.
It it's a pick-up; sorry, I need arcane bombs as much as you need a skullflame shield.
looting guidelines for raid officers - Tuftears - 03-15-2006
Yeah, I am assuming that it's a guild or allied guild group, rather than a PUG. No one expects PUGs to cater to anything more than base greed.
looting guidelines for raid officers - Professor Frink - 03-16-2006
Tuftears,Mar 15 2006, 11:33 AM Wrote:Yeah, I am assuming that it's a guild or allied guild group, rather than a PUG. No one expects PUGs to cater to anything more than base greed.I fail to see the distinction in base greed between "i want an equal cut of this valuable item that dropped, even though you could use it directly" and "I want to be given this valuable item that dropped because it's an upgrade for me, even though everybody needs money and some people couldn't use any world purple"
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If you're concerned with the good of the guild(s), the purple should be given to the person best able to use it -- and it would be a rather big coincidence if that person happened to be on the raid it dropped.
If it's a PUG, and there's no obvious group to find the best use for the item, people long ago discovered a method of efficently finding the best use of a scarce resource: find out who's willing to part with the most money to have it.
-- frink
looting guidelines for raid officers - MongoJerry - 03-16-2006
Quote:If you're concerned with the good of the guild(s), the purple should be given to the person best able to use it -- and it would be a rather big coincidence if that person happened to be on the raid it dropped.
If it's a PUG, and there's no obvious group to find the best use for the item, people long ago discovered a method of efficently finding the best use of a scarce resource: find out who's willing to part with the most money to have it.
The ethics involved in this and similar arguments is truly astounding. They boil down to, "If I'm with a group of people I know, then I'll be nice, fair, and generous. If I'm with strangers, then screw them. I want my piece of the action." I don't see things that way. People deserve kindness, fairness, and generosity whether I know them or not. The only difference between a guild run and a pug run to me is what security measures I might put in place (i.e. what loot settings I might use) to prevent outright ninja looting. If a sense of morality and ethics is not enough for you to treat people as people whether you know them or not, then consider that a run with strangers is also an opportunity to meet new players who can become future partymates, raid members, battleground companions, sources of free item manufacture (tailoring, alchemy, enchanting, etc.), and maybe even friends or guildmates.
looting guidelines for raid officers - Rinnhart - 03-16-2006
MongoJerry,Mar 16 2006, 09:49 AM Wrote:The ethics involved in this and similar arguments is truly astounding. They boil down to, "If I'm with a group of people I know, then I'll be nice, fair, and generous. If I'm with strangers, then screw them. I want my piece of the action." I don't see things that way. People deserve kindness, fairness, and generosity whether I know them or not. The only difference between a guild run and a pug run to me is what security measures I might put in place (i.e. what loot settings I might use) to prevent outright ninja looting. If a sense of morality and ethics is not enough for you to treat people as people whether you know them or not, then consider that a run with strangers is also an opportunity to meet new players who can become future partymates, raid members, battleground companions, sources of free item manufacture (tailoring, alchemy, enchanting, etc.), and maybe even friends or guildmates.
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It's less a statement of policy towards PUGs and more a reserved right of veto should you turn out to be a tosser who suddenly NEEDS everything.
looting guidelines for raid officers - Tuftears - 03-16-2006
Quote:They boil down to, "If I'm with a group of people I know, then I'll be nice, fair, and generous. If I'm with strangers, then screw them. I want my piece of the action." I don't see things that way.
Personally I passed on a Robe of the Archmage pattern to a PUGgie in a LBRS run. They were surprised and grateful. I expect PUGgies to be greedy, but I don't feel that I need to act that way toward them.
Quote:If you're concerned with the good of the guild(s), the purple should be given to the person best able to use it -- and it would be a rather big coincidence if that person happened to be on the raid it dropped.
That can happen too. People will say 'X would really like this Y,' and if the people on the run know X and agree with this, and no one on the run considers themselves a better candidate for Y, then that's what will happen.
Anyway... From the OP:
Quote:Spangles is an officer and a raidmaster for her guild. I have been asked to set up procedures for an organized raiding program. Our looting rules are the standard ones. I need help with writing guidelines for raiding officers that will avoid loot disputes.
...
(re: world drop epics) Try to suspend belief that the best solution is always for everyone to decide who would benefit the most. Some of our guildies are, literally, children, and behave accordingly. Other raid members may be guests who consider their own agenda only.
I can see the sentiment, but honestly, I think the reaction 'zomg world drop epic moneymoneymoney' comes from people who haven't yet hit the 40-man raiding circuits. You get a little blase about epics when you see 10-20 drop each week.
I think the philosophy 'people > loot' is the best one to cultivate. Loot drama comes about either because of greed, or because people disagree about who is the best choice to receive item X. If people are willing to accept that a person they consider non-optimal may receive X, but another X will come along sooner or later, then things should go much more smoothly.
looting guidelines for raid officers - Professor Frink - 03-18-2006
MongoJerry,Mar 16 2006, 09:49 AM Wrote:The ethics involved in this and similar arguments is truly astounding. They boil down to, "If I'm with a group of people I know, then I'll be nice, fair, and generous. If I'm with strangers, then screw them. I want my piece of the action." I don't see things that way. People deserve kindness, fairness, and generosity whether I know them or not. The only difference between a guild run and a pug run to me is what security measures I might put in place (i.e. what loot settings I might use) to prevent outright ninja looting. If a sense of morality and ethics is not enough for you to treat people as people whether you know them or not, then consider that a run with strangers is also an opportunity to meet new players who can become future partymates, raid members, battleground companions, sources of free item manufacture (tailoring, alchemy, enchanting, etc.), and maybe even friends or guildmates.
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The only special treatment I suggested for guildies was that if you were in a guild, you actually have a pool of people large enough that one of them might be able to make good use of a BoE world epic, and since the people doing the run have the same set of friends, there will be no hard feelings about giving it away to someone not on the run. It would be kind of silly for one guildie to put a Krol Blade up on the AH only have another person in the same guild buy it, when the same transfer could be arranged over guild-chat.
The logistics of determining which of the friends of which of the players on a pug will most benefit from an item would make it impractical, so we go with the second best solution of rolling it off to pick someone to sell/use/barter/give away the item as they see fit. Selling the item and splitting the gold would work too, but seems like more trouble than it's worth to me, as 1/10th the AH price of an item and a 1/10 chance at getting the item are pretty much the same thing.
Either way, demanding that you waste the primary advantage of a world epic over some random item that drops in MC -- the very handy BoE feature -- by having one of the people on the run bind the item is just pointless. I fail to see how it demonstrates "kindness, fairness, and generosity" or "ethics". It strikes me as more resembling four hungry people going home hungry because they're all too polite to take the last slice of pizza, which winds up being fed to the dog. I was raised to belive that wasting scarce resources that other people might need was wrong.
-- frink
looting guidelines for raid officers - Zarathustra - 03-18-2006
Professor Frink,Mar 16 2006, 08:59 AM Wrote:I fail to see the distinction in base greed between "i want an equal cut of this valuable item that dropped, even though you could use it directly" and "I want to be given this valuable item that dropped because it's an upgrade for me, even though everybody needs money and some people couldn't use any world purple"[right][snapback]104752[/snapback][/right]
By that logic, then, do you propose a Greed roll on any BoE set item? Blue or purple, it's another BoE item that lots in the party could benefit from on the AH.