+- The Lurker Lounge Forums (https://www.lurkerlounge.com/forums)
+-- Forum: Lurker Games (https://www.lurkerlounge.com/forums/forum-6.html)
+--- Forum: World of Warcraft (https://www.lurkerlounge.com/forums/forum-16.html)
+--- Thread: New Alliance Race Speculation thickens! (/thread-4492.html)
New Alliance Race Speculation thickens! - Monkey - 04-18-2006
So the Draenei from WC3 still work for Illidan:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/burningcrus...l/bestiary.html
Check out The Broken, note in the description:
Quote:It almost seems like a miracle that the Broken somehow managed to preserve their shamanistic heritage...(emphasis mine)
I think Draenei can be ruled out as the New Alliance race because of their 'shamanistic heritage' . Alliance can't have Shaman any more than the Horde can have Paladins. Now, it's clear that no Blood Elf would turn 'towards the light', but why would a shamanistic people turn away from their faith?
So who could it be? From the rumormongering and detail aggregation sites I've read regarding the new Alliance race, there are a few requirements:
1. Related to Outland / The Burning Crusade
2. "Cool" but not necessarily "Pretty"
3. Starting zone in Azeroth (Outland is all >level 50 stuff)
4. Small enough to fit through all doors in Stormwind/Ironforge/Darnassus
5. Not Kool-aid Man
I didn't put bipedal on the list, but I'm pretty sure it should be there--explaining away boots on something with a tail (naga) or four feet (dryads) would just not be good game lore in my opinion.
I like the worgan and ogre ideas, but I know there's no hard information. Anyone else have any new thoughts on this? Think I've gone insane?
New Alliance Race Speculation thickens! - lemekim - 04-18-2006
That is an interesting observation. However, I do have to point out one thing - in the past, Blizzard liked to play on semantics when trying to disguise something.
Consider Blood Elves - Blizzard specifically announced that High Elves will not be a playable race. While Blood Elves are *Technically* High Elves, in reality they became another faction, which allowed Blizzard to say this, and not be wrong. But that stement gave people the idea that there will be no more Elves as a playable faction - sort of hiding truth in plain sight .
This leads me to two thoughts...
First one is simple. If it really isn't Draenei, then why did Blizzard so openly announce the new mobs - am I seeing too much, or is Blizzard trying to pull the wool over our eyes again? First, why did they make the specific distinction "Lost Ones" and "Broken"? And also, it's not hard to imagine that there is a significant contingent of Draenei remain that are not corrupted, and which will be a playable race - it will probably be "prettier" as well, since it's not corrupted.
My second thought is a bit more speculative, and directly relates to your statement about Shamanistic nature of Draenei. What if Alliance is finally getting Shamans, and Horde is getting Paladins? After all, the last class that will be available to Blood Elves is still unknown (I wonder why), and we already know that Draenei can be Shamans. Blizzard said that there will be no new classes... But neither Shaman nor Paladin are new, yet they would provide a sufficient degree of "new" for people to try the new races. Absurd? Correct me if I am wrong, but nowhere did Blizzard state that it will not happen. It is merely assumed that it will not happen, but why shouldnât it?
What do you think?Wild speculations? Or is Blizzard again trying to hide the answer in plain sight?
But please, if you have any information disproving this, Iâd be glad to hear it to put these speculations down. Please?
New Alliance Race Speculation thickens! - Kevin - 04-18-2006
lemekim,Apr 18 2006, 10:44 AM Wrote:That is an interesting observation. However, I do have to point out one thing - in the past, Blizzard liked to play on semantics when trying to disguise something.
Consider Blood Elves - Blizzard specifically announced that High Elves will not be a playable race. While Blood Elves are *Technically* High Elves, in reality they became another faction, which allowed Blizzard to say this, and not be wrong. But that stement gave people the idea that there will be no more Elves as a playable faction - sort of hiding truth in plain sight .
This leads me to two thoughts...
First one is simple. If it really isn't Draenei, then why did Blizzard so openly announce the new mobs - am I seeing too much, or is Blizzard trying to pull the wool over our eyes again? First, why did they make the specific distinction "Lost Ones" and "Broken"? And also, it's not hard to imagine that there is a significant contingent of Draenei remain that are not corrupted, and which will be a playable race - it will probably be "prettier" as well, since it's not corrupted.
My second thought is a bit more speculative, and directly relates to your statement about Shamanistic nature of Draenei. What if Alliance is finally getting Shamans, and Horde is getting Paladins? After all, the last class that will be available to Blood Elves is still unknown (I wonder why), and we already know that Draenei can be Shamans. Blizzard said that there will be no new classes... But neither Shaman nor Paladin are new, yet they would provide a sufficient degree of "new" for people to try the new races. Absurd? Correct me if I am wrong, but nowhere did Blizzard state that it will not happen. It is merely assumed that it will not happen, but why shouldnât it?
What do you think?Wild speculations? Or is Blizzard again trying to hide the answer in plain sight?
But please, if you have any information disproving this, Iâd be glad to hear it to put these speculations down. Please?
[right][snapback]107559[/snapback][/right]
I don't know the lore well enough. I personally would love to have alliance shaman and horde paladins (of course the synergistic effects they could have working with each other might be a little out of balance I'd need to think more about it). However is there anyway to get blood elf paladins by the lore we know?
Is there any connection in the lore to add the paladin as a class to an existing horde race (tauren paladins? orc paladins? troll paladins O.o? I can't see forsaken ever being paladins, they were forsaken by the light)? That would just allow Blizzard to skirt the issue a little. It would open the door for adding a healing class to the gnomes who have been living with the dwarves so long now that they picked it up and finally give the only race in the game without healers a healer.
Dunno. I can't answer you questions, just ask some more. :)
New Alliance Race Speculation thickens! - MongoJerry - 04-18-2006
Gnollguy,Apr 18 2006, 09:03 AM Wrote:(of course the synergistic effects they could have working with each other might be a little out of balance I'd need to think more about it).
That right there is why I think this won't happen.
I'm personally still rooting for a Worgen race, but it's still possible for there to be a group of Drenei who choose to ally themselves with the Alliance in order to protect themselves from their bretheren and the other races of Outland. The shamanistic background is intriguing, but it's within the boundaries of Warcraft lore for some groups to lose their heritage.
New Alliance Race Speculation thickens! - lemekim - 04-18-2006
MongoJerry,Apr 18 2006, 04:13 PM Wrote:That right there is why I think this won't happen.
[right][snapback]107573[/snapback][/right]
I don't think that's a really good reason, Mongo. Power Infusion + Arcane Power anyone?
New Alliance Race Speculation thickens! - Monkey - 04-18-2006
lemekim,Apr 18 2006, 11:44 AM Wrote:My second thought is a bit more speculative, and directly relates to your statement about Shamanistic nature of Draenei. What if Alliance is finally getting Shamans, and Horde is getting Paladins? After all, the last class that will be available to Blood Elves is still unknown (I wonder why), and we already know that Draenei can be Shamans. Absurd? Correct me if I am wrong, but nowhere did Blizzard state that it will not happen. It is merely assumed that it will not happen, but why shouldnât it?
[right][snapback]107559[/snapback][/right]
They can't give the faction-specific classes to the other side because it will mess with raid configuration and balance. Right now, having 5x8=40, equal numbers of each class equals a full raid. They won't bump raid size to 45 because that would require rebalancing all existing 40-man content.
Also regarding balance--how would they handle mixing Shaman totems (Mana Spring, Tranquil air, etc.) with Paladin buffs (Wisdom, Salvation, etc.)? It could completely trivialize some encounters. Or imagine attempting Razorgore with a combination of low-aggro heals and earthbind totem.
My guess about the mention of the Lost Ones is that they will present a large body of questing plotlines in Outland and possibly related to Hellfire Citadel. Like Cenarion Hold and the AQs.
New Alliance Race Speculation thickens! - MongoJerry - 04-18-2006
lemekim,Apr 18 2006, 09:14 AM Wrote:I don't think that's a really good reason, Mongo. Power Infusion + Arcane Power anyone?
For twenty seconds after they nerfed double trinkets? Nah, it doesn't compare with all the auras and buffs that would fly around if raids could have both shamans and paladins in them.
New Alliance Race Speculation thickens! - Kevin - 04-18-2006
lemekim,Apr 18 2006, 11:14 AM Wrote:I don't think that's a really good reason, Mongo. Power Infusion + Arcane Power anyone?
[right][snapback]107574[/snapback][/right]
Well something like improved grace of air (77 * 1.15) = 88.55 agility. Then you put Blessing of Kings on top of that. 88.55 * 1.10 = 97.4 agility for anyone in that. And you can do the same with strength of earth for the str 97.4 str.
So you just dropped a nearly 5% crit totem for DPS warriors and a 5% dodge totem for tanks (4.87% for the warriors). Sticking with the warriors 4.4 more damage blocked and 194.81 more AP for the melee attacks. Other classes get different things of course.
Fun with a heart of the wild spec'd cat druids in that totem combo + kings + salvation land are looking at 116.88 more str in cat form so you can get a cat druid 2 paladins and a shaman and the cat now gets 233.772 + 97.405 = 331.177 AP and 4.87% crit and 30% less threat. I know that without kings it's still a 301.07 AP boost and 4.4275% crit. But that is till a big increase. But let's not stop there. Let's put 3 paladins in the raid. 1 for salvation. 1 for kings. 1 for might or wisdom. So we can throw another 185 * 1.2 = 222 AP on top of that. So the paladin didn't just add 30 AP and .4% crit with 30% aggro reduction. They added 253 AP, .4% crit and 30% aggro reduction and if you put them in this DPS group (which you probably would not do but maybe they are a frothadin with a Sulfuras) and you've added FR or more armor or what not. So the warrior, shaman, rogue, rogue, druid group just got a little more nuts. Yeah let's not talk about what the rogues are getting from this group. :)
Horde tanks that were used to 6000 HP now have 6600 HP along with that dodge and str they were getting from the shamans before and everyone that needs it is under salvation and the paladin provides the aura so the shamans can no use a different resist or whatever as needed. So you can do the MT group of warrior, shaman, paladin, warlock, whatever (probably the secondary tank, maybe a VE healer). So we can add 1K armor from devo aura, the shaman air and earth totems for that extra damage (more aggro) and extra dodge (less damage).
But that means you are dropping real classes for utility classes doesn't it? Not sure about that. We like to have 4 paladins for the auras on the key people and to make the blessing easier (as you want light, kings, salv or sanctuary, might or wisdom) though if you sacrifice a buff here or there or use some of the 5 minutes ones on key people (pain in the ass) instead of the 15 minute versions you can juggle it and really light can be dropped as it only helps the paladins heals and you might not need them doing that much healing. 5 paladins can be helpful as well. But if you do 3 paladins and 3 shaman you can cover DPS groups, tank groups and even a healer/caster group (though with the paladin mana regen tools the mana potion totem, that is all mana tide does, isn't really that big a deal anymore). And you can leave a druid or a priest out depending on what you did before for healing since paladins and druid. Of course I've seen paladins in epics finish top 10 in damage in Molten Core so if they are spec'd that way (the guy with imp might and kings and other DPS stuff who can still throw those spot heals out when needed) you aren't losing as much DPS as you might think. Don't know what epic shaman who don't need to heal because there are paladins that are spec'd to heal and buff that can cover that on the trash now could do.
Those are just a few quick examples of some of the crazy stacking that could happen. There is more that could go on.
New Alliance Race Speculation thickens! - lemekim - 04-18-2006
MongoJerry,Apr 18 2006, 04:18 PM Wrote:For twenty seconds after they nerfed double trinkets? Nah, it doesn't compare with all the auras and buffs that would fly around if raids could have both shamans and paladins in them.
[right][snapback]107577[/snapback][/right]
I don't understand what's so hard about tuning new content to include this specific change?
And as for existing content, surely you don't suggest that running BWL as level 70's will not be easy enough as it is? After all, I doubt you plan on staying at level 60 once the expansion comes out?
EDIT: Actually the only problem I really see is stacking Tranquil Air with BoS. But a simple solution comes to mind - why can't they be mutually exclusive? As can be some of the other buffs?
Hey, I would just like to hear another reason rather then another "it seems too powerful". And such a move from Blizzard would not suprise me at all - they often do such things without thinking everything through.
New Alliance Race Speculation thickens! - ima_nerd - 04-18-2006
Blood Elves as Paladins makes no sense to me according to the lore. When the Scourge over ran Quel'Thalas, the surviving High Elves swore vengeance and made demonic pacts to reach their goals. Their inbred addiction to magic raises another point that prevents them from being Paladins. Beings infused with Demonic powers and a life controlling adictionto the Arcane don't seem like good candidates for champions of the Light, to me :whistling:
New Alliance Race Speculation thickens! - lemekim - 04-18-2006
Monkey,Apr 18 2006, 04:17 PM Wrote:They can't give the faction-specific classes to the other side because it will mess with raid configuration and balance. Right now, having 5x8=40, equal numbers of each class equals a full raid. They won't bump raid size to 45 because that would require rebalancing all existing 40-man content.
Also regarding balance--how would they handle mixing Shaman totems (Mana Spring, Tranquil air, etc.) with Paladin buffs (Wisdom, Salvation, etc.)? It could completely trivialize some encounters. Or imagine attempting Razorgore with a combination of low-aggro heals and earthbind totem.
[right][snapback]107575[/snapback][/right]
Again, why do you guys keep thinking about existing content when it comes to expansion? Are you suggesting that level 60 content is too easy at level 70 if you have both Shamans and Paladins in your raid? Well, I think it would be too easy because you are level 70, not because you have Shamans and Paladins! :)
As for raid configuration... When was the last time your raid had 5 of each member? Most of the time you are short a few druids, warlocks and have quite a few warriors, and yet you seemed to be doing fine. I am sure that Blizzard can balance it out somehow.
I know I am playing the Devil's Advocate here, but I still don't see a good reason as to why not, or a link to some Blue post about it. :whistling:
Speculating is exciting.
New Alliance Race Speculation thickens! - MongoJerry - 04-18-2006
lemekim,Apr 18 2006, 10:03 AM Wrote:I don't understand what's so hard about tuning new content to include this specific change?
It would be a wild extremely game altering thing. While there are differences between paladins and shamans, in most ways they are tuned to play the same niche role -- buffers, healers, and maybe occationally tank. Now, you'd throw these two groups who fill essentially the same roles in different ways together. Now, you'd get to combine paladin blessings with shaman totems -- blessings of wisdom with mana spring and mana tide totems, blessing of Kings with windfury or grace of air. The multiplicative bonuses would be crazy.
No, I think the two classes were designed to be different enough to give people who play the two different factions unique game experiences (Alliance = easy mode; Horde = higher difficulty. Just kidding! Well, half kidding...), and yet have the two classes fill similar roles in parties and raids.
Quote:And as for existing content, surely you don't suggest that running BWL as level 70's will not be easy enough as it is? After all, I doubt you plan on staying at level 60 once the expansion comes out?
You lost me here.
New Alliance Race Speculation thickens! - lemekim - 04-18-2006
ima_nerd,Apr 18 2006, 05:18 PM Wrote:Blood Elves as Paladins makes no sense to me according to the lore. When the Scourge over ran Quel'Thalas, the surviving High Elves swore vengeance and made demonic pacts to reach their goals. Their inbred addiction to magic raises another point that prevents them from being Paladins. Beings infused with Demonic powers and a life controlling adictionto the Arcane don't seem like good candidates for champions of the Light, to me :whistling:
[right][snapback]107590[/snapback][/right]
Now that makes much more sense. Also, I found this bit by Tigole:
Quote:Poster: Tigole at 3/21/2006 8:37:30 PM PST
Subject: Re: What classes can be blood elves?
Currently, they can be:
Mage
Priest
Warrior
Warlock
Rogue
Hunter
This might change as we get into Alpha/Beta for the expansion.
Hah. Although I did find this post by Tyren from before:
Quote:Poster: Tyren at 11/17/2005 11:10:13 PM PST
Subject: Re: Blood Elves available races?
Seriously though, if Blood Elves ever got to be hunters, we'd have to have the GMs do a service wide search for any form of the name "Legolas" and just start handing out random names.
That post was before Tigole mentioned Rogues/Hunters as playable races. No paladins! (Unless they change their mind... Just kidding.)
Well, now that my wild detour into realm of speculations is over, I'll throw in my guess - Pandaren.
New Alliance Race Speculation thickens! - Pesmerga - 04-18-2006
lemekim,Apr 18 2006, 01:34 PM Wrote:Now that makes much more sense. Also, I found this bit by Tigole:
Hah. Although I did find this post by Tyren from before:
That post was before Tigole mentioned Rogues/Hunters as playable races. No paladins! (Unless they change their mind... Just kidding.)
Well, now that my wild detour into realm of speculations is over, I'll throw in my guess - Pandaren.
[right][snapback]107596[/snapback][/right]
My hope (in order): Pandaren, Worgen, Furlbogs
My theory (in order): Furlbogs, Dranaei, Worgen, Pandaren
I'd through in reasons, but I'm lazy. Pandas are just cool.
New Alliance Race Speculation thickens! - Lissa - 04-18-2006
Gnollguy,Apr 18 2006, 09:03 AM Wrote:I can't see forsaken ever being paladins, they were forsaken by the light[right][snapback]107569[/snapback][/right]
I don't think they were forsaken by the light, I think they took the forsaken because everyone wanted to kill them. The Scourge because they were outside the control of the Lich King and Alliance because they thought they were part of the Scorge and it was an attempt at trickery.
If they were truly forsaken from the light, there wouldn't be Undead Priests. So why not Undead Paladins? (Yes, I've heard a large number of hypothesis why, but found many of them lacking with only the loss of memory of skills being plausible, but there is plenty of evidence in game to indicate that Forsaken don't lose they're memory, just playing through the start area shows this.)
New Alliance Race Speculation thickens! - oldmandennis - 04-18-2006
MongoJerry,Apr 18 2006, 09:21 AM Wrote:Quote:And as for existing content, surely you don't suggest that running BWL as level 70's will not be easy enough as it is? After all, I doubt you plan on staying at level 60 once the expansion comes out?You lost me here.
[right][snapback]107593[/snapback][/right]
He probably means that the current endgame will be horribly broken by the introduction of level 70 characters anyways. Even NXM will be easy mode. The new content can be balanced around having shamans and paladins in mind.
Not that I think it's going to happen, but the balance of current dungeons doesn't stop it from happening.
New Alliance Race Speculation thickens! - Artega - 04-18-2006
lemekim,Apr 18 2006, 12:14 PM Wrote:I don't think that's a really good reason, Mongo. Power Infusion + Arcane Power anyone?
[right][snapback]107574[/snapback][/right]
Apples to potatoes. The only real reason to choice one faction over another - besides personal preference and/or overactive testosterone production - is whether you want Pallies or Shammies fighting for loot with you (Pallies fighting Warriors, Shammies fighting Hunters.)
Both sides have always had access to Priests and Mages, but not to Shamans and Paladins.
New Alliance Race Speculation thickens! - MongoJerry - 04-18-2006
oldmandennis,Apr 18 2006, 12:08 PM Wrote:Quote:You lost me here.
[right][snapback]107593[/snapback][/right]
He probably means that the current endgame will be horribly broken by the introduction of level 70 characters anyways. Even NXM will be easy mode. The new content can be balanced around having shamans and paladins in mind.
Not that I think it's going to happen, but the balance of current dungeons doesn't stop it from happening.
[right][snapback]107615[/snapback][/right]
Yeah, I understand, but I keep scanning through anything I said or even what Gnollguy said and I don't see where anyone made the claim that because it would break existing content (which it would now that Lem brought it up), it wouldn't be allowed. It's as if Lem suddenly said, "Trees can still be pretty even if shaman and paladins can be a part of the same faction." I mean, it's true, but I don't think anyone was arguing that trees would suddenly become ugly if shaman and paladins played on the same side.
I don't think shaman and paladins will be mixed for three reasons:
1. It would remove an important distinction between the two factions. While there is a lot of overlap between a shaman's and paladin's powers, there are differences that make encounters unique depending on what faction you are playing on. Obvious raid-level examples would include Razorgore where Horde guilds tend to create shaman kiting circles while Alliance guilds tend to try to kill off mobs and Hururon who is a simple fight for Alliance and as difficult to fight as Vael for Horde. Most other fights aren't nearly as extreme as these, but the differences between having paladins or shaman in your raid party makes a difference and makes one's experience unique. These differences in effect "double" the size of the game in that if one get tired of playing one faction, one can always choose to create a character of the opposite faction and experience the existing content in new ways.
2. At the same time, while there are differences between paladins and shaman, the two classes were created to fill similar niche roles in parties and raids and have similar powers to one another. These classes were designed not to be together and now they would suddenly get thrown together to compete for the same positions in parties and raids.
3. At the same time, now you have two buffer classes whose combined multiplicative effects could wildly unbalance the game. Sure, new content could be created with the assumption that you always have a shaman and paladin in your party, but then you get stuck in the situation where you *must* have a paladin and a shaman in your party, because a party that doesn't have them would be so much weaker otherwise.
No, I really don't see Blizzard doing this. Could they do it? Yes. Do I think they will do it? No.
New Alliance Race Speculation thickens! - lemekim - 04-18-2006
MongoJerry,Apr 18 2006, 08:56 PM Wrote:No, I really don't see Blizzard doing this. Could they do it? Yes. Do I think they will do it? No.
[right][snapback]107646[/snapback][/right]
I will have to agree with your last statement there. Sure there are some balance issues, and there is also that post by Tigole that I quoted in my reply to ima_nerd. Blizzard *could* do it (and it would give them a chance to say "each factions gets a new class!" about expansion), but there are too many things against it.
Well, I guess that pretty much exhausts all the possibilities of Draenei being on Alliance side. Pandaren it is! (someone told me it's not Worgen, and I trust them fairly well). I really don't see any other viable options =(.
New Alliance Race Speculation thickens! - oldmandennis - 04-18-2006
MongoJerry,Apr 18 2006, 12:56 PM Wrote:I don't think shaman and paladins will be mixed for three reasons:
1. It would remove an important distinction between the two factions.
2. At the same time, while there are differences between paladins and shaman, the two classes were created to fill similar niche roles in parties and raids and have similar powers to one another.
3. At the same time, now you have two buffer classes whose combined multiplicative effects could wildly unbalance the game.
No, I really don't see Blizzard doing this. Could they do it? Yes. Do I think they will do it? No.
[right][snapback]107646[/snapback][/right]
1) /nod
2) I don't know - I think the actual number of people who switched would be pretty low. They are not really any closer in role then locks and mages, or shaman and druids.
3) I don't agree - new 20 and 40 man content could be balanced around assuming both classes are present. Anything less then that and bringing along both means giving up something. You'd have to check stuff to make sure there is nothing unbearably cheesy, but for the most part I think the small stuff is probably going to be OK.
Eventually there will be new classes, weather hero's or something else. The game will have to be balanced around it then.
But I definatly agree that it is very unlikely to happen in the expansion.