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New Warrior Talent? - MongoJerry - 05-11-2006
There's a rumor going around (such as here) that a new talent will be added to the protection tree in 1.11 that adds 10% to your stamina. Has anyone heard anything definite about this? Or is this merely a wish-list item that turned into a rumor that spread like wildfire?
New Warrior Talent? - lemekim - 05-11-2006
MongoJerry,May 11 2006, 09:53 PM Wrote:There's a rumor going around (such as here) that a new talent will be added to the protection tree in 1.11 that adds 10% to your stamina. Has anyone heard anything definite about this? Or is this merely a wish-list item that turned into a rumor that spread like wildfire?
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http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.a...or&T=999859&P=1
That's a better thread with more information. Yes, it's true, there is also a link to the interview confirming this, accounts of users from E3, and a transcript of IRC chat with Furor.
New Warrior Talent? - Olon97 - 05-11-2006
Seems plausible enough. Believe the original source was the uberguilds IRC channel - first quoted on the FOH boards.
Quote:[23:43] ZIGGURAT>you read about the new warrior prot talent?
[23:43] FUROR>$$
[23:43] FUROR>is what it is
[23:43] ZIGGURAT>4th tier prot tree (same as improved taunt), 5/5 is +10% sta
[23:43] ZIGGURAT>no joke dude
[23:43] ZIGGURAT>thats what prot needed
[23:43] FUROR>thats not all
[23:43] FUROR>shield slam upgraded hugely
[23:44] FUROR>nobody read the tooltip?
[23:44] ZIGGURAT>dude
[23:44] ZIGGURAT>anyone who went there
[23:44] FUROR>so its not totally worthless
[23:44] ZIGGURAT>to take pics/etc
[23:44] SUINEG>warriors get a look again?
[23:44] ZIGGURAT>!&$%ing failed
[23:44] ZIGGURAT>harder than $!@%
[23:44] SUINEG>or is that TBC stuff?
[23:44] ZIGGURAT>so no, no one read the tooltip probably
[23:44] FUROR>no 1.11
[23:44] FUROR>prot will be worth investing in
[23:44] FUROR>well
[23:44] ZIGGURAT>dmg increase on it?
[23:44] FUROR>beyond 15-20 points
[23:44] SUINEG>everyone getting revamped?
[23:44] FUROR>made a bunch of changes, will have to wait for the news to release
[23:44] SUINEG>for 1.11 I thought just Shaman/Mage
[23:44] ZIGGURAT>fair nuff
[23:44] SUINEG>ahh I see
[23:44] FUROR>warriors just had some tweaks
New Warrior Talent? - Artega - 05-11-2006
Would much, MUCH rather have +10% HP. If the STA buff affects STA buffs (e.g. Lung Juice, Fort, Paw, etc), you're looking at probably 550ish total STA (I honestly have no clue what a fully geared tier2 would have, but 550 seems reasonable with buffs), giving you a bonus of about 500 HP; with +10% HP, you're looking at closer to an extra 1000.
Don't know about you, but I sure as hell do not believe an extra 500 HP is compensation for giving our previous 31-point talent to Fury and Arms specs for free.
Just one more reason I'm not going to be renewing my subscription any time soon.
New Warrior Talent? - Kjartan - 05-11-2006
MongoJerry,May 11 2006, 10:53 PM Wrote:There's a rumor going around (such as here) that a new talent will be added to the protection tree in 1.11 that adds 10% to your stamina. Has anyone heard anything definite about this? Or is this merely a wish-list item that turned into a rumor that spread like wildfire?
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If you watch part one of the interview with a Blizzard developer at http://www.worldofwar.net/ he mentions it there. There is also an unconfirmed rumor about Shield Slam being buffed as well, but thats based on the IRC chat with Furor thats been posted.
New Warrior Talent? - ima_nerd - 05-11-2006
Yeah, +10% Stamina that late in the tree is weak. If it were Teir 2, it would be worth considering as an alternative to Toughness (once you get better gear Toughness' effectiveness will diminish while +10% Stamina's effectiveness will increase). The Protection tree as a whole is rather dissapointing. Everything worth getting for raiding is in the first 3 teirs. Past that, in my opinion, is pure crap.
New Warrior Talent? - Kjartan - 05-11-2006
ima_nerd,May 12 2006, 12:19 AM Wrote:Yeah, +10% Stamina that late in the tree is weak. If it were Teir 2, it would be worth considering as an alternative to Toughness (once you get better gear Toughness' effectiveness will diminish while +10% Stamina's effectiveness will increase). The Protection tree as a whole is rather dissapointing. Everything worth getting for raiding is in the first 3 teirs. Past that, in my opinion, is pure crap.
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I think its a major boost to a main tank. It might not seem like a lot, but an extra 500 or so health can really make a difference. I remember when my guild first went up against Broodlord in BWL and struggled, then had our tanks focus on stamina/health enchants and things went a lot smoother on the next run. Pretty sure it was only 300-500 health more per tank, but for the heavy spike damage fights any increase in stamina can have huge effects.
At the same time it isn't game breaking. It lets non prot warriors still play the role as MT, just needs better gear or more awake healers to compensate. If the talent added too much health then new fights would have to be balanced around the tanks having the +sta talent and force warriors into specific specs which blizzard seems to be avoiding these days (see innervate).
It is a nice talent that makes a prot tank just a little bit better at staying alive than a non prot tank, without going so far as it being required for raiding.
New Warrior Talent? - ima_nerd - 05-11-2006
I can see how it could help, but there's no way I'd spend 5 points for a slightly better Tauren racial, essentially (using Artega's rough numbers). Especially when there's much better things to spend my points on like Anticipation, Shield Spec, Toughness etc.
New Warrior Talent? - MongoJerry - 05-11-2006
Artega,May 11 2006, 04:12 PM Wrote:Don't know about you, but I sure as hell do not believe an extra 500 HP is compensation for giving our previous 31-point talent to Fury and Arms specs for free.
Just one more reason I'm not going to be renewing my subscription any time soon.
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You're confusing me. My understanding is that the new talent is at tier 4 and that Shield Slam is staying put and getting a buff. It all sounds pretty good if true, unless there's some other 31-point protection tree talent you're talking about.
Also, you don't have to bring up the "I'm not renewing my subscription" stuff on every hint of any change to the game that doesn't match whatever grand changes you would prefer. A simple "It sounds like a step in the right direction but more is needed" would suffice.
New Warrior Talent? - MongoJerry - 05-11-2006
ima_nerd,May 11 2006, 04:34 PM Wrote:I can see how it could help, but there's no way I'd spend 5 points for a slightly better Tauren racial, essentially (using Artega's rough numbers). Especially when there's much better things to spend my points on like Anticipation, Shield Spec, Toughness etc.
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The Tauren racial only works on base stats and doesn't improve with equipment or buffs. It only comes out to like 150 health at level 60.
If it's true, considering how much we use Flasks of the Titans, Zanza pots, elixirs of fortitute, and stamina food to give our main tanks every bit of extra life they can get, letting them have an extra 550+ health would be fantastic. It would give protection warriors something other than, "Hey! I can hold aggro better!"
New Warrior Talent? - Olon97 - 05-12-2006
I would take points in this new talent over anticipation any day of the week (actually using anticipation as a placeholder in talent calculators atm). I can equip a single item that gives me +18 defense. The most stamina I can get on a single item is 50. Do I want to spend 5 talent points on 55% of an item stat, or 5 talent points on 130% of an item stat? Call me a terminal bargain hunter.
That and I still die on Broodlord sometimes if I don't have a flask, despite having 7/8 wrath with double ZG enchants. Usually there's only 1 or 0 actual crits when that happens, and with 440 defense not attainable with my gear with or without anticipation, I'd rather have the stamina. :D
New Warrior Talent? - Artega - 05-12-2006
Posted before completely reading the various threads on the subject.
Still not renewing subscription for at least a couple of months; sick and tired of my class being the whipping boy.
And I don't recall bringing up not renewing my subscription before, but maybe you have a better memory than I do.
New Warrior Talent? - Artega - 05-13-2006
Flask of the Titans is +HP, not +STA; a STA-boosting talent wouldn't affect it.
The talent is still not good enough, however; five talent points for 500 HP (and that's if you're geared and buffed very well) is abysmal, especially when you consider what else you'd have to give up in order to get it.
Sure, dropping Anticipation for Vitality (which is the name I've heard bounced around) is nothing for a tier2 tank, since +10 DEF is mostly meaningless at that point; but what about the tier0 and tier0.5 tanks? An unbuffed tier0 in mixed PvP and tanking gear (which is what I prefer to tank five-mans in) will receive an extra 280 or so Stamina (I have the old list sitting around somewhere, and I'll update with the exact number when I manage to dig it up), which would mean you'd get an extra 280 HP in addition to the usual 2800, bringing you up to 3080 total - an average of 56 HP per talent point. To those of you better at World of Mathcraft than I: at what point (for a tier0/0.5 tank) would 5 points into Vitality be better than 5 points into Anticipation?
And this, of course, assumes you're taking both Shield Specialization and Anticipation; if not, you'll be losing 5 points somewhere else for the talent.
In light of this, I really don't see how this changes anything except for those elite few who actually have enough STA to make this talent worthwhile; story of the Warriors, it seems - the elite few get buffed while the majority stay the same or get nerfed.
New Warrior Talent? - Kjartan - 05-13-2006
Artega,May 13 2006, 02:06 AM Wrote:And this, of course, assumes you're taking both Shield Specialization and Anticipation; if not, you'll be losing 5 points somewhere else for the talent.
In light of this, I really don't see how this changes anything except for those elite few who actually have enough STA to make this talent worthwhile; story of the Warriors, it seems - the elite few get buffed while the majority stay the same or get nerfed.
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Assuming you are going for 31 points in Prot tree you wont be taking Vitality instead of any of those talents, you will be replacing the other crappy talents in the tree. Even if you take Shield Spec, Anticipation, Toughness, Defiane, Conc Blow you still need 9 points to get to Shield Slam.
Even then Vitality would scale with gear, the better your gear gets the more use you have of the talent. Shield Spec and Anticipation get more and more useless as gear gets better.
My warrior in end game blues easily ends up at 450 stamina fully buffed, getting a free extra +45 stamina off that is awsome. The best blue currently is around 30 sta i think, to get more than that you need to move on to epics.
Artega,May 13 2006, 02:06 AM Wrote:To those of you better at World of Mathcraft than I: at what point (for a tier0/0.5 tank) would 5 points into Vitality be better than 5 points into Anticipation?
Health/Stamina is better than defense pretty much always. Against a lvl 60 mob you need 425 defense to never get critted. Unless you can get to 425 there is always a chance to get critted, and then you better have the health to be able to absorb the hit.
Against a lvl 63 mob which is the level most of the raid encounters are at now you need 440 defense, so unless you can get there stamina beats defense. And even with 440 defense you will get hit with crushing blows 15% of the time, so again you need a good amount of stamina.
I think it is possible to collect the blue gear to get you to 425, or even 440, but it would probably mean spending a lot of time looking collecting it and even some ZG AQ20 runs.
Pre MC it doesn't matter really matter. I've tanked everything with dps gear and a 2hander, even with the 5/10man limits.
If you are doing MC or future instances you get access to gear that give you loads of sta/def anyways, and you don't need to max defense to be a good tank. 315 fire resistance is the ultimate goal for MC, not 440 defense.
New Warrior Talent? - Monkey - 05-13-2006
Kjartan,May 13 2006, 07:32 AM Wrote:Health/Stamina is better than defense pretty much always. Against a lvl 60 mob you need 425 defense to never get critted. Unless you can get to 425 there is always a chance to get critted, and then you better have the health to be able to absorb the hit.
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I found the opposite to be true when running the Tier 0 instances with my warrior. Wearing defense gear was far better than stamina gear (except on caster mobs). My HP barely broke 3000 (buffed) at the time, but I could handle the beating from Kromcrush because I had (pre-defense nerf) >390 defense in blues and greens.
The chance to be critted changes linearly at a rate of -1% chance to crit per 25 defense above the level of your attacker. Defense affects crushing blows from raid-level mobs and each point of defense adds 0.04% to Parry, Dodge, and Block. So against a 63 mob, 415 defense is gives 8% damage mitigation, -4% chance to be critted, +4% chance to block, and the chance of crushing blows is lowered to the minimum 15%.
[stole the math from WoWwiki: http://www.wowwiki.com/Formulas:Defense]
To answer Artega's question about 10% Stamina vs 10 Defense; It seems most 31 Protection builds will involve both. However, if only choosing one, then 'Vitality' is the better choice for a raiding MT. It continues to scale with gear while Anticipation does not. For an Arms or Fury build trying to pick up some tank abilities, Anticipation is an easy 10 Defense to pick up on your way to Defiance.
The challenge for raiding tanks is to present the 'whole package' of high HP, good defense, and decent damage (for aggro retention). Blizzard is likely wary of buffing warriors because tanks often make or break raiding content. The gear-dependence (and consequent benefit) of the class makes this even more difficult.
Edit: Cleanup for typos, etc.
New Warrior Talent? - Olon97 - 05-13-2006
I got by with my concept of "enough" HP in 5-mans and pretty much all of MC, focusing on defense over stamina (ex. core armor kits over stam/hp enchants pre-def nerf). That bit me in the ass big time first time we encountered Broodlord. My stam has much improved since we first pulled him, but he's still my least favorite encounter in BWL. You have "enough" HP until you encounter the fight where "enough" isn't enough. :P
Personally, I don't mind the thought of certain talent specs working better for players at various stages of the game. The protection tree lacked talents that scaled a warrior's utility as their gear increased (with the exception of toughness - armor has no diminishing returns when it comes to survivability). The 10% stam talent and making Shield Slam's damage partly due to AP help make a talent/gear synergy that the tree sorely needed.
New Warrior Talent? - Mavfin - 05-13-2006
Olon97,May 13 2006, 11:28 AM Wrote:I got by with my concept of "enough" HP in 5-mans and pretty much all of MC, focusing on defense over stamina (ex. core armor kits over stam/hp enchants pre-def nerf). That bit me in the ass big time first time we encountered Broodlord. My stam has much improved since we first pulled him, but he's still my least favorite encounter in BWL. You have "enough" HP until you encounter the fight where "enough" isn't enough. :P
Personally, I don't mind the thought of certain talent specs working better for players at various stages of the game. The protection tree lacked talents that scaled a warrior's utility as their gear increased (with the exception of toughness - armor has no diminishing returns when it comes to survivability). The 10% stam talent and making Shield Slam's damage partly due to AP help make a talent/gear synergy that the tree sorely needed.
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Yeah, I'd take +10%. Hellz yeah! I was ecstatic to get a couple of the last items I needed from MC the other day, and with a Const Libram (placeholder till I get around to ZG enchant for legs), they raised my unbuffed hp by about 250. So, 400 or 500 more? Heck yeah. I might not get wtfpwned by Broodlord as much.
(Or as I said to the Terenas Lurkers: Keshi would sell her soul for +10% stam)
New Warrior Talent? - Concillian - 05-13-2006
MongoJerry,May 11 2006, 03:41 PM Wrote:The Tauren racial only works on base stats and doesn't improve with equipment or buffs. It only comes out to like 150 health at level 60.
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Not true, It works on enchants, and equipment. Not sure if it works on buffs or not, but definitely works on equipment and enchants. It can easily be more than a 150 HP bonus.
This coming from someone who has played a tauren warrior quite a bit and tested various equipment combinations against one another. You definitely get +5% from bonuses on equipment. It also affects all health, and not just stam based (+100 health enchant, for example gives +105 health.)
New Warrior Talent? - Alram - 05-13-2006
Welcome back Concillian!
Concillian,May 13 2006, 12:51 PM Wrote:Not true, It works on enchants, and equipment. Not sure if it works on buffs or not, but definitely works on equipment and enchants. It can easily be more than a 150 HP bonus.
This coming from someone who has played a tauren warrior quite a bit and tested various equipment combinations against one another. You definitely get +5% from bonuses on equipment. It also affects all health, and not just stam based (+100 health enchant, for example gives +105 health.)
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New Warrior Talent? - ZugzwangZeitgeist - 05-13-2006
Monkey,May 13 2006, 02:55 PM Wrote:To answer Artega's question about 10% Stamina vs 10 Defense; It seems most 31 Protection builds will involve both. However, if only choosing one, then 'Vitality' is the better choice for a raiding MT. It continues to scale with gear while Anticipation does not. For an Arms or Fury build trying to pick up some tank abilities, Anticipation is an easy 10 Defense to pick up on your way to Defiance.
The challenge for raiding tanks is to present the 'whole package' of high HP, good defense, and decent damage (for aggro retention). Blizzard is likely wary of buffing warriors because tanks often make or break raiding content. The gear-dependence (and consequent benefit) of the class makes this even more difficult.
I can't imagine someone actually taking 5/5 Anticipation instead of 5/5 Shield Block, especially if they were just dipping into the tree. Anticipation's only worthwhile use is letting tanks cap out defense early - for pure mitigation it is a stunningly awful way to spend 5 talent points.
This new Vitality talent would be most useful in raiding where tanks have loads of hitpoints and the danger of being two-shotted or whatever is very real. It will increase your survivability and the mana efficiency of healers. It's a great talent, and given the dearth of choices in Protection, is a pretty cool option for Protection warriors.