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+--- Thread: Lurkers and Avarice > Twin Emps (/thread-3970.html)
Lurkers and Avarice > Twin Emps - Bolty - 08-27-2006
OOomph.
Widescreen and standard sizes.
So much fun. Even got to play with the trash afterward.
"You are weak." "You will die."
"Oh crap, now you're coming for me."
-Bolty
Lurkers and Avarice > Twin Emps - Mavfin - 08-27-2006
Quote:OOomph.
Widescreen and standard sizes.
So much fun. Even got to play with the trash afterward.
"You are weak." "You will die."
"Oh crap, now you're coming for me."
-Bolty
Tanking on the Emps was more fun than I can describe. Awesome raid.
Hearing Darian say 'Executes on next transition' and going 'Huh?', before realizing they were down to near 20% was kinda startling. I was like "it's been over 10 min?" It felt like about 4 minutes.
Lurkers and Avarice > Twin Emps - Bolty - 08-27-2006
On the last run I pulled myself out of main tank healing and traveled the room with the DPS to heal them. Proved to be the difference, but only because the other healers did their job so well that I was able to do that. How far we've come.
On one transition, I turned around to jog to the other side and an exploding bug was right about to blow - had I taken a step forward, I would have been hit. The adrenaline rush from stuff like that can't be beat. Mostly though, I had a blast jogging from one side of the room to the other - I *felt* like I was a DPS'er and as I saw the Emps' life falling, I realized it was that one slight change in healing that was going to win it. With each Uppercut, my Greater Heal popped them back to full and they could get right back in there with gusto.
Just wait until I get to tank via Mind Control in Naxx. Muhahahahaha.
-Bolty
Lurkers and Avarice > Twin Emps - TheDragoon - 08-27-2006
Like I said on the CA site, I can get you some more zoomed in pictures if you like. Since I also run at 1920x1280, they'll be just as big as yours. I uploaded some .jpg versions but I could send you the uncompressed one, if you want. :)
Lurkers and Avarice > Twin Emps - Icebird - 08-27-2006
Congrats! And /envy.:)
We took our very first crack at them tonight. Mostly discovered all the myriad ways the fight can go wrong so far. It was very cool being one of the two warlock tanks for the fight.
Chris
Lurkers and Avarice > Twin Emps - Tal - 08-27-2006
That was fun! Can we go again?
Lurkers and Avarice > Twin Emps - Mirajj - 08-27-2006
Such an exciting and intense fight! Would fight it again! A++
Lurkers and Avarice > Twin Emps - Bolty - 08-27-2006
Quote:Like I said on the CA site, I can get you some more zoomed in pictures if you like. Since I also run at 1920x1280, they'll be just as big as yours. I uploaded some .jpg versions but I could send you the uncompressed one, if you want. :)Please send me the uncompressed one.
-Bolty
Lurkers and Avarice > Twin Emps - Kevin - 08-27-2006
Quote:OOomph.
Widescreen and standard sizes.
So much fun. Even got to play with the trash afterward.
"You are weak." "You will die."
"Oh crap, now you're coming for me."
-Bolty
Gratz.
Though the first Saturday I've missed in a while and you guys have to kill him bums me a little bit.
Lurkers and Avarice > Twin Emps - LochnarITB - 08-28-2006
Quote: bums me a little bit.That we both missed it bums me a BIG bit!:(
Lurkers and Avarice > Twin Emps - Delc - 08-28-2006
Big grats guys!
Lurkers and Avarice > Twin Emps - Icebird - 08-28-2006
Okay, now that I've got the congrats out of the way - mind if I pick your brains on strats?
1. Did you use warrior or warlock tanks on Vek'lor?
1a. If using warlocks, were they peeling aggro using spells, or running in to get the inital proximity aggro?
2. How did you divide up the healing load between the tanks and everyone else?
3. And out of curiousity - how long had you spent working on them?
I think our first session was pretty typical...
1. "Ok, pull away. Um, why is Vek'lor charging for a druid?"
2. "Warrior down!"
3. "Oh nuts, I forgot to park my Felhunter at the back. Vek'nilash has just aggroed him, one shotted him, and is now out to kill the healers."
4. Uppercut! Uppercut! "Warlock down!" (I was running in for the proximity aggro).
5. Bug explosion! Shadowbolt! "Warlock down!"
6. Arcane burst! "Warrior down!" (I was dead, and the warrior was devouring shadowbolts. He moved a little close whle anticpating the teleport).
Chris
Lurkers and Avarice > Twin Emps - Mavfin - 08-28-2006
Quote:Okay, now that I've got the congrats out of the way - mind if I pick your brains on strats?
1. Did you use warrior or warlock tanks on Vek'lor?
1a. If using warlocks, were they peeling aggro using spells, or running in to get the inital proximity aggro?
2. How did you divide up the healing load between the tanks and everyone else?
3. And out of curiousity - how long had you spent working on them?
I think our first session was pretty typical...
1. "Ok, pull away. Um, why is Vek'lor charging for a druid?"
2. "Warrior down!"
3. "Oh nuts, I forgot to park my Felhunter at the back. Vek'nilash has just aggroed him, one shotted him, and is now out to kill the healers."
4. Uppercut! Uppercut! "Warlock down!" (I was running in for the proximity aggro).
5. Bug explosion! Shadowbolt! "Warlock down!"
6. Arcane burst! "Warrior down!" (I was dead, and the warrior was devouring shadowbolts. He moved a little close whle anticpating the teleport).
Chris
I can answer some of these, having been the tank on the right side (the pulling tank). Some questions others will have to answer.
1 and 1a) We used warlocks on the caster twin (is that Vek'lor, I guess?), but are prepared to use tanks only or only 1 warlock if they're not there one night. We worked it so that tanks had prox aggro on all transitions, and the warlock pulled the caster twin off the tank.
What I did as the tank on transition *to* the caster twin, was simply step away about 3 steps, out of burst range, off-axis to where the warlock was. If he moved after the warlock got aggro, I simply stepped to where I was still closer than the warlock, so that when the melee twin came back, prox-aggro was mine. This method actually won't need to be changed much at all, if any, for an attempt w/o a warlock.
This method worked out well at 6%, when, due to a healer death, the warlock on my side, tanking the caster at the time, died, and the twin immediately turned to me, and so we were able to finish with no loose twin, or them healing each other.
A couple more notes on prox aggro: You only have to be the closest one to him. This can be 10 yards if the next person is 12 yards away. If I was doing this w/o a warlock, I just step away from the caster twin a few steps, face him, and eat some bolts. When the melee twin comes back, step in and grab him. Fairly simple once you get him down. No need to run into burst range to get prox aggro. I ate 2 bursts the entire successful fight, one was my mistake completely on a transition, and the other, he charged me for some reason.
2) I'll leave this answer to someone who knows. I was a recipient of a lot of the healing:D
3) I think we killed them in our 4th, maybe 5th session at them, sessions being 3-4 hours from first pull of the Anub Defenders. The kill came on our 4th attempt Sat night, after clearing from the entrance, skipping the bug family and Visc. I'm thinking this was our 4th week to try them.
Lurkers and Avarice > Twin Emps - Mirajj - 08-28-2006
Quote:Okay, now that I've got the congrats out of the way - mind if I pick your brains on strats?
1. Did you use warrior or warlock tanks on Vek'lor?
1a. If using warlocks, were they peeling aggro using spells, or running in to get the inital proximity aggro?
2. How did you divide up the healing load between the tanks and everyone else?
3. And out of curiousity - how long had you spent working on them?
3 - This was our sixth "week" on them. The first 4, our strat changed every raid due to having different raiders. The fifth week cancelled, and on the sixth week, everyone was there and on the ball. They went down.
Lurkers and Avarice > Twin Emps - Tuftears - 08-29-2006
Quote:2. How did you divide up the healing load between the tanks and everyone else?
4 healers on Seiki, 5 on Keshi, 1-2 on the bug tank, and rest on the DPS, a la FFA.
Cleoboltra was pretty much the 'rest'. Freeing her up from Seiki let us bring the raid home.
Lurkers and Avarice > Twin Emps - Bolty - 08-29-2006
Quote:2. How did you divide up the healing load between the tanks and everyone else?I'll give away our healing strategy setup. Cause you know, we're a top-flight world-first guild and sharing strategies is WRONG! OH NOES! :) I write the healing setup strategies for our raid alliance, and below is what I wrote for the Emps. You can share this with your healers and see what they think. Keep in mind this is just one way to do the encounter - there are a number of different methods.
------------------------
Vek'lor, the caster. Vek'nilash, the melee. These twin brothers form a brutal team that tests any raid's organizational abilities and skill level. For healers, it's a very stressful battle where any little thing going wrong can almost instantly lead to a wipe. What else is new, though, right? Still, this is the hardest healing fight in Ahn'Qiraj, and thus requires the most explanation.
Let's start with what Vek'lor and Vek'nilash do, and then we'll move on to how we handle it.
1) Whenever the twins get within 60 yards of one another, they will spam heal each other for 30000 health/tick. Obviously, they must be kept on opposite sides of the room from each other.
2) Every 30 to 40 seconds, the twins will teleport and switch places. This cast shows up as a blue glow at their feet. They then gain about 3000 points of aggro instantly to whomever is closest to them.
3) After 15 minutes, the twins become enraged and will annihilate everyone.
4) The twins share their health. Hurting one emperor hurts both emperors.
5) Small neutral bugs are scattered all over the room. If aggroed in any way, they become hostile.
Vek'lor (the caster)
Immune to all physical damage, Vek'lor spams Shadow Bolts on his aggro target. If not resisted at all, they do around 3000-4000 damage each. He casts Blizzards on players who are within 40 yards of him (especially if they're bunched up) that hurt for 1500 damage per tick. If any player is within melee range of him, he uses Arcane Explosion that knocks them back and deals 4000 damage.
Perhaps his nastiest action, however, is turning a small neutral bug around him into an exploding bug. It will grow in size and detonate, causing up to 5000 fire damage to anyone nearby. This occurs about every 10 seconds.
Vek'nilash (the melee)
Immune to all magical damage, Vek'nilash's standard melee damage isn't much to worry about on a well-geared tank. It's his special abilities that will wipe the raid, though. First off is Uppercut, a large-damage strike (~3000) that also knock backs a random target in melee range. Second is Unbalancing Strike. Depending on your tank's gear, this will hit for 5000 damage or so and then reduces the tank's defense by 100 for six seconds. This leaves the tank highly vulnerable to crushing blows and criticals for six whole seconds after taking a massive damage hit. Surviving Unbalancing Strikes is the key to beating the Twin Emperors, healing-wise.
Vek'nilash also casts Mutate Bug, which turns a small neutral bug around him into a large roaming hostile bug. It will typically go right for the healers, who are generating large amounts of aggro through their healing. These must be tanked and killed or they'll rip the healers up, doing up to 2000 damage a hit on cloth wearers.
Sounds easy, right? Well, here's how we handle it. Wear your best healing gear you have; this fight will test the endurance power and healing skill of the entire healing force.
The twins are tanked on each side by a Warrior and a Warlock, if a Warlock is available with a high amount of shadow resistance. The idea is that the Warrior tanks Vek'nilash, and the Warlock tanks Vek'lor. If a Warlock is not available for a side, then the Warrior will tank both twins, albeit in a different manner. These Warriors and Warlocks should have Prayer of Shadow Protection cast on them before the fight.
From entering the room, Vek'lor is standing on the left and Vek'nilash the right. We'll use this frame of reference from here on.
The left and right sides of the room will have a healing team each. The healing teams are made up of:
4 healers to heal the Warrior,
1 healer to heal the Warlock (Priest preferred).
That's 10 healers right there. Additionally, you want:
1) 1 (strong endurance) healer dedicated to the "bug tank", the tank that will be handling the mutated bugs created by Vek'nilash.
2) 1 healer to keep up the ranged DPS (Mages, Hunters) who will be standing on the stairs killing mutated bugs or shooting at the emps. This healer also supports the bug tank.
3) 1 healer to be on the floor running from side to side with the melee DPS, keeping them upright after taking uppercuts/bug explosions/blizzards, along with providing additional support wherever needed (for example: healing other healers who have been hurt, throwing a key instant-heal on a tank who looks about to die, etc). This healer needs a high amount of situational awareness, since they will be dodging a number of threats while also keeping many different people vertical at any given time.
Doing this fight without a minimum of 13 healers will be a challenge unless the raid is way overgeared for it. Extra healers can assist the side healing teams or help out with FFA healing DPS and filling in if a healer dies.
Here's the breakdown of the left and right side healing teams. As mentioned before, you want 1 healer dedicated to the Warlock and 4 healers dedicated to the Warrior. This means that while the Warlock is tanking, the other 4 healers take a break and regen their mana. While the Warrior is tanking, the Warlock healer is taking a break and regenning his/her mana. Remember, it's a long fight (up to 15 minutes), and if you run out of mana you are useless! Trust your fellow healers to get the job done.
You'll notice on each side of the room there's a torch on the wall. This torch acts as a useful positioning marker that displays the halfway point between the entranceway stairwell and the stairwell to the platform each emperor is initially standing on. The Warriors will be tanking Vek'nilash against the wall between that torch and the entranceway stairwell.
Three of the Warrior healers will take positions on the entranceway stairwell to heal when the Warrior on their side is tanking. The other healer will go to the far stairwell of that side and heal the Warrior from there. This is done as a safety net in case that Warrior takes an uppercut and is thrown to the far side of the room, out of range of the entranceway stairwell healers. This one Warrior healer standing at the other end should be a Priest; if they get aggro from a mutated bug, they can Fade to shed it and send the bug back toward the tanks and DPS waiting at the entranceway stairwell.
The Warlock healer will stand on the entranceway stairwell and heal the Warlock when he's tanking Vek'lor. The reason healers should try to stick to the stairwells is because no neutral bugs spawn there. This reduces the chance that a bug will explode near you or a newly-mutated bug will walk over and chomp you before a Hunter or tank can pull it off you.
All this sounds simple, but what makes it hard are the transitions. Remember, the twins switch spots every 30-40 seconds. Here's how a proper transition sequence should work, and if you're on one of these healing teams this is basically what you'll do the entire fight. You get into a rythym doing this and after a while it becomes second nature.
Let's assume that the Warrior is currently tanking Vek'nilash and Vek'lor is about to port in and swap places. At that point, the Warrior is against the wall within melee range of Vek'nilash. The Warlock is waiting in the wings, out toward the center of the floor but close by the entranceway stairwell to be in range of his healer.
1) Vek'lor teleports in. There's a short (2 second) pause before he takes any action.
2) During this pause, the Warrior is getting out of melee range by sliding away from Vek'lor toward the entranceway stairs and going around. The far-side Priest does not attempt to get closer to the Warrior at this point, instead letting the three other healers take care of him.
3) Vek'lor "wakes up" and gains aggro on the closest player to him, which is the Warrior. He begins spamming Shadow Bolts at the Warrior. The Warrior healers on the entranceway stairwell spam heals on him.
4) The Warlock opens fire, using high-damage high-aggro spells to overcome the 3000 aggro the Warrior already has. He grabs aggro off the Warrior after a few Shadow Bolts and the Warlock healer goes into high gear spamming heals on the Warlock, who is now the focus of Vek'lor's attention.
5) Seeing that the Warrior has lost aggro and is no longer taking any damage, the Warrior healers back off, moving to at least 40 yards away from Vek'lor. This is done to avoid getting hit by any Blizzards from Vek'lor. The Warrior takes a position to the side of Vek'lor, closer to Vek'lor than the Warlock is, to guarantee he gets aggro when Vek'nilash ports in again.
6) When the 5 second warning to a teleport is given, the Warrior healers on the entranceway stairwell move in again and prepare to heal the Warrior.
7) Vek'nilash teleports in. There's a short (2 second) pause before he takes any action.
8) During this pause, the Warrior gets into melee range of Vek'nilash and puts his back to the wall so that uppercuts don't get him in trouble. The far-side Priest makes sure he's/she's in position to heal the Warrior again.
9) Vek'nilash "wakes up" and gains aggro on the closest player to him, which is the Warrior. The Warrior healers keep him vertical and the Warlock healer takes a break from the frenetic heal spam to regen. This continues until step 1 occurs again. Repeat ad infinitum until the Emperors die.
So what can kill the side team healers?
A) Mutated Bugs. Vek'nilash will turn the neutral bugs into mutated ones who will go for the healers. If they're not pulled away by Hunters or the bug tank quickly enough, we'll get munched.
B) Blizzards. You'll get hit by a Blizzard or two; it's inevitable. Whether or not it kills you is entirely up to you. You need to pay attention and immediately see a Blizzard's on you and RUN. Don't move backwards, because it's slower. Either run forward or strafe left or right. If you're having a hard time catching when the Blizzards are hitting you, bring Greater Frost Protection Potions and drink one before the fight. They'll save you from a good 2 ticks of the frost damage.
C) Exploding Bugs. Get too close to the floor and you'll risk a bug exploding near you. If you have a good boss mod like CTBossMods, you'll get a warning when a bug near you is about to explode. Staying on the stairs will keep you safe from these, however.
FAQs:
What happens if there's no Warlock on my side?
If there's a shortage of Warlocks, you may have a Warrior tanking both Vek'nilash and Vek'lor. This is done by removing steps 4 through 6 of the transition sequence I outlined above. The Warrior holds aggro on Vek'lor by standing at range from him and spamming Battle Shout over and over and over. This is definitely harder on the healers, because the Warrior healers will not have any breaks to regen mana. It also means that all of the healers will likely be in Blizzard range of Vek'lor, because there's little opportunity to reposition yourselves before you have to heal the Warrior again. The Warrior will not have much shadow resistance and will be taking full damage from the Shadow Bolts - be ready to keep healing.
How is the initial pull handled? The tanks aren't in place yet.
On the left side, the pull starts with a Warlock. The Warlock healer pre-shields the Warlock and guides them in as they move from their pull position to their standard tanking position. It's a good idea for a Warrior healer or two to help out with this, since a healer obviously can't heal if they're moving.
On the right side, the pull starts with a Warrior. The far-side Priest who's a Warrior healer will pre-shield the Warrior as they start the pull and help keep him up as he gets into position. The other Warrior healers will string out along the Warrior's path as he gets set. The Warrior healers will move toward the stairs in a staggered fashion so that most of them are casting heals at any given moment; having all the Warrior healers moving and not healing is a recipe for disaster. It's likely that all the Warrior healers won't be on the stairs until after the first transition and the Warlock is tanking. DON'T LOSE YOUR WARRIOR - wiping the raid in the first 10-15 seconds after the pull because you weren't ready/set up right is embarassing!
Wait - how am I going to heal for 15 minutes? I barely last three minutes before I run out of mana!
One obvious thing you can do to extend your mana pool is to bring consumables. Major Mana Potions are a huge plus; if you're having problems, chug them every chance you get. Oils that add mp/5 to your weapon and cooking food such as Nightfin Soup can be a real boon.
But most of all, it's about healing smartly. Don't stand there and spam your highest-rank, fastest-cast heals. There are 3-4 healers on each Warrior tank; if each of these healers uses a mid-rank long-cast spell and cancels it if it's not needed, they'll do fine. For Priests, Greater Heal Rank 1-2 is a good pick, depending on how much +heal they have. Druids can look to use Healing Touch ranks 5-7 or so. You heal the Warrior/Warlock by spamming this heal over and over, cancelling if the target isn't hurt enough to make the heal useful. If you wait for the tank to take a huge hit and THEN start casting the heal, they'll be dead before it finishes. Be ready to use fast heals in emergencies (shields, flash heals, nature's swiftness), but mana conservation and healing efficiency is king. Choose a heal that's too weak and the tank won't get pushed back up to full health quickly enough; choose a heal that's too strong and you'll blow too much mana if you don't cancel the heal in time when it's not needed. This is a battle that will test your healing strength and force you to use many different ranks and types of heals to handle the Unbalancing Strikes that can throw a tank's health from 100% to near-death in a flash.
No pressure. Will you pass the test? If you're new to the encounter and just reading this while going in for the first time, know that this is not a fight where a few healers can do the job and cover for those who don't know what they're doing. Every last one of us must pull their weight or it's a wipe, and many healers will have an individual role that puts all the responsibility on them with little/no backup (such as the Warlock healers and bug tank healer). Bring your A game.
-Bolty
Lurkers and Avarice > Twin Emps - Icebird - 08-29-2006
Thanks Bolty. Miraji sent me the information in a PM, but now I can point our guild members here, and the appropriate people can get credit.
I think having the staggered chain of healers waiting in position for the pull (rather than running into position during the pull) is a great idea for reducing incidents of Premature Tank Death.
I find the idea of a split in the healing team between the warlock healer and the warrior healers intriguing. For the most part, the damage I took as a warlock was more consistent and predictable than for the warriors. Most of the time I resisted 75% of the damage (1000 taken, 3000 resisted); sometimes I only resisted half (2000 taken, 2000 resisted). A druid could probably keep up with that damage; perhaps a paladin spamming Holy Light. Although in my experience paladins tend to prefer Flash of Light because of the fast cast time and low mana cost; appropriately geared and specced they appear to be able to cast it indefinitely.
I can't wait to try them again.:)
Chris