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freedom of press in europe - eppie - 10-21-2009
Finally some people of the european parliament (socialists, liberals and green party) have voiced their concern about the freedom of press situation in Italy, where president Berlusconi own several TV stations and news papers and decides what is televised on the state TV stations (because he is president) giving him a 95 % coverage. Being not the most subtle person he regularly interferes with news shows and fires journalists that are critical of his behaviour (bribing, mafia contacts, prostitution in his house etc.).
In Italy mainly because he owns most of the media (and 100% of all the popular media) he has many supporters. (the other two reasons are the fact that being fraudulent and getting away with it is a positive thing in Italy and also his political opponents are not the most trustworthy people) but in Europa there is much criticismbecause we get a much less biased news coverage here. (this is actually quite extreme, many italians don't have a clue about many of Berlusconi's social/political faux pas', because it is just not mentioned in the main stream media).
Anyway, finally there were some people asking for a debate and a vote to reprimand him (not the scariest thing for a guy who buys judges) but now the vote was lost mainly because of the large christian democrat coalition in the EU parliament who as a party decided to support Berlusconi 100 %).
For me this didn't come as a surprise (people that read my comments on the lounge know that I don't trust the christian democrats much) but it still is a big dent in the credibility of the EU parliament. These are difficult times with the admittance of new members, the voting for a constitution etc.. For christian democrats in other european countries to help somebody who so clearly is above the law in his own country is a very bad sign.
( I only read this in dutch pages yet, when I find a link in english I will post it)
( http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/1...coni/index.html this is just a recent interview with Berlusconi)
And a press release http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/expert/.../default_en.htm )
freedom of press in europe - Crusader - 10-21-2009
He who controls the media, controls the hearts of the people.
But really, it's Italy. I mean, they have more churches then brains there. Must be the Mediterranean sun.
freedom of press in europe - eppie - 10-21-2009
Quote:He who controls the media, controls the hearts of the people.Two examples that show this is 'not just Italy'.
But really, it's Italy. I mean, they have more churches then brains there. Must be the Mediterranean sun.
1. The fact that GW Bush was elected twice over two different intellectually far superior opponents, just because of superior 'media skills' of the GOP.
2. The recent example of a bank owner in the Netherlands (Dirk Scheringa) who used extortioning interest rates on loans and sold all kinds of shady financial construction to 'the people', who after his bank got declared bankrupt still is 'the nice guy' in the eyes of the same people which he 'tricked' into these strange lending schemes, whereas the minister of finance who refused to save the bank is portraied as the bad guy.
Two simple examples of the fact that using the media in your benefit happens everywhere.
The main point of the topic I started is however the fact that the EU parliament (because of the large christian fraction) didn't want to undertake even the slightest action (a reprimand) and how embarassing that is. So we are not only talking about the Italians here
freedom of press in europe - Jester - 10-21-2009
It's Berlusconi. Like a neo-Mussolini, but with more style and less substance. (And yes, they've studied it. The trains didn't run any more or less on time...)
What I don't know about Italian politics could fill several warehouses, but I do know what I don't like. And I don't like Berlusconi one tiny bit. I don't even give a hoot about the hookers, or his penchant for off-the-cuff bigotry. But his politics (both his ideology and his tactics) are horrifying.
-Jester
freedom of press in europe - eppie - 10-21-2009
Quote:It's Berlusconi. Like a neo-Mussolini, but with more style and less substance. (And yes, they've studied it. The trains didn't run any more or less on time...)
What I don't know about Italian politics could fill several warehouses, but I do know what I don't like. And I don't like Berlusconi one tiny bit. I don't even give a hoot about the hookers, or his penchant for off-the-cuff bigotry. But his politics (both his ideology and his tactics) are horrifying.
-Jester
I didn't want to make a topic about this. Berlusconi is already doing his tricks for a long time.
My problems are with the fact that the EU could finally make a statement, and they didn't. That is the real scandal.
freedom of press in europe - --Pete - 10-21-2009
Hi,
Politics are one of the few things that make me regret my Italian heritage. I'll not comment on this issue beyond my standard observation that every nation gets the government it deserves.
--Pete
freedom of press in europe - kandrathe - 10-21-2009
Quote:1. The fact that GW Bush was elected twice over two different intellectually far superior opponents, just because of superior 'media skills' of the GOP.It couldn't possibly be a better strategy in winning enough electoral votes. Also regarding intellect... Gore maybe, but Kerry is not any intellect. Gore is a nerd, and while I get it, most people don't.
freedom of press in europe - Jester - 10-21-2009
Quote:It couldn't possibly be a better strategy in winning enough electoral votes. Also regarding intellect... Gore maybe, but Kerry is not any intellect. Gore is a nerd, and while I get it, most people don't.John Kerry is nothing special in the brains department. But George W. Bush certainly is.
-Jester
freedom of press in europe - eppie - 10-22-2009
Quote:Hi,
Politics are one of the few things that make me regret my Italian heritage. I'll not comment on this issue beyond my standard observation that every nation gets the government it deserves.
--Pete
In the case of Italy I understand your opinion. I have the same feeling often, which is very annoying because I know many 'young' people from Italy who actually think about this the same way, many of whom decide to go and study abroad and decide to stay abroad. Others are pulled back (because there is so much which is great in Italy) and have to settle for half the salary they would get with the same job in another country.
Only lawyers, bank managers and people with their own business make money (basically any job that allows you to evade taxes).
Italy is at the same time one of the most socialist/conservative and one of the most right wing/conservative countries in europe.
Anyway, the main point was that the EU parliament couldn't agree with the simple resolution to reprimand Italy about there lack of freedom of press......and that is far more disturbing.
This comes back to discussion I had with Kandrathe, and I think it proves my point, that religion is far more an unwanted force in societies than eg the supposedly communist government of the US that kandrathe is always complaining about.
I don't know if it is because of some fear of muslim influence or for some other reason but the catholic countries (that by some strange coincidence are profitting the most from a united europe) are hijacking the EU together with their religious allies from the north, and this worries me a lot.
freedom of press in europe - --Pete - 10-22-2009
Hi,
Quote: . . . religion is far more an unwanted force in societies than eg the supposedly communist government of the US that kandrathe is always complaining about.Wow. If you want real excitement, mix nitric and sulfuric acid, add glycerin, heat in a double boiler, skim off the oily liquid that rises to the surface. That's much safer and more stable than where this is going. :P
--Pete
freedom of press in europe - kandrathe - 10-22-2009
Quote:Wow. If you want real excitement, mix nitric and sulfuric acid, add glycerin, heat in a double boiler, skim off the oily liquid that rises to the surface. That's much safer and more stable than where this is going. :PNah. I just need to consider the source. There is a rich history in western philosophy which resulted in the rationality that begot the scientific method. Many early theologians pursued scientific inquiry as a way to understand God. Even today, for many people, every revelation of the complexity of the observable world confirms the wonder and miracle they attribute to a higher power, rather than just randomness. Most institutions of "higher education" began from the benevolence of religious institutions lifting the populace from ignorance within scholastic guilds.
Whatever his beef is with religion is beyond my power to divine, but it goes deeper than mere difference in philosophy. There are people, such as yourself, who are indifferent to those who you might see as wasting their time with religion as long as they leave you out of it. And, then, there are people who despise it so much they actively go out of their way to denigrate and belittle.
freedom of press in europe - eppie - 10-23-2009
Quote:Whatever his beef is with religion is beyond my power to divine, but it goes deeper than mere difference in philosophy. There are people, such as yourself, who are indifferent to those who you might see as wasting their time with religion as long as they leave you out of it. And, then, there are people who despise it so much they actively go out of their way to denigrate and belittle.
Pete, Kandrathe,
I would never mock somebodies god. Like at the moment is very popular under european right wingers with the god of islam as subject (remember the cartoon 'riot' some time ago).
My problem, (and I have no intention to hide my opinion or be sneaky in another way) is with religion in politics. Most religious people only have problems with 'another religion in politics'.
Anyway, it is a pity noone gave a reaction on the question/discussion point I raised. Namely the fact that the christian right in the european parliament voted as one big block against something that for sure in a land as Holland would be voted for by the whole parliament, namely to mantain freedom of press and reprimand anyone that clearly abuses this freedom. The christian right, a union of representatives from all EU countries has always been one of the sure voices of a united EU/ a EU constitution etc. That they as a block support someone like berlusconi (who is by far a representative of good christian values) is an outrage.
freedom of press in europe - Jester - 10-23-2009
Quote:Anyway, it is a pity noone gave a reaction on the question/discussion point I raised. Namely the fact that the christian right in the european parliament voted as one big block against something that for sure in a land as Holland would be voted for by the whole parliament, namely to mantain freedom of press and reprimand anyone that clearly abuses this freedom. The christian right, a union of representatives from all EU countries has always been one of the sure voices of a united EU/ a EU constitution etc. That they as a block support someone like berlusconi (who is by far a representative of good christian values) is an outrage.It's just politics. If Berlusconi is defeated, his replacement will likely ally with their political enemies. If they want to maintain control for the center-right, they need a right-wing government in Italy. Berlusconi is exactly that. So, they don't censure him.
I'm sure they're also somewhat wary of interfering in Italian local politics. There are a lot of countries that have skeletons in their own closets. They might be afraid that once that kind of criticism starts, it won't stop. But mostly, it's all just a big political game. Or so it seems to me - European Parliament politics really aren't my strength.
-Jester
freedom of press in europe - Crusader - 10-23-2009
Don't forget that it's not just the christians that blocked the Neo-Mussolini, the 4 rightist Wilders PVV followers also blocked the vote, for example. And they're pretty anti-europe to begin with. So rightfully bash on the christian friends politics all you like, but don't forget they're not the only ones supporting big brother.
freedom of press in europe - eppie - 10-23-2009
Quote:Don't forget that it's not just the christians that blocked the Neo-Mussolini, the 4 rightist Wilders PVV followers also blocked the vote, for example. And they're pretty anti-europe to begin with. So rightfully bash on the christian friends politics all you like, but don't forget they're not the only ones supporting big brother.
You are right, but from the PVV you could expect this kind of behaviour.
For non-dutch lurkers; this political party uses taxpayers money and time to ask questions in the dutch parliament about en elephant that fell in a zoo and broke his leg.
freedom of press in europe - Zingydex - 10-23-2009
Quote:You are right, but from the PVV you could expect this kind of behaviour.
For non-dutch lurkers; this political party uses taxpayers money and time to ask questions in the dutch parliament about en elephant that fell in a zoo and broke his leg.
That sounds like every political party in Canada. Count yourself lucky if only some of the political factions in Europe act like that.
freedom of press in europe - ShadowHM - 10-23-2009
Quote:That sounds like every political party in Canada.
*nods*
And I am reminded of Eddie Sargeant, who held a seat in Grey-Bruce riding as a member of the opposition. He was locally infamous for interrupting debates on any topic at all to rise and address the house for a few minutes on whatever topic any old crackpot in his riding had asked him. Then he could write a letter back and claim that he had 'brought your question to the house'. :rolleyes: It must have worked though - he was actually re-elected six times. :lol:
freedom of press in europe - Jester - 10-23-2009
Quote:You are right, but from the PVV you could expect this kind of behaviour.Be glad if your government is eccentric and harmless. There are much worse things for a government to be.
For non-dutch lurkers; this political party uses taxpayers money and time to ask questions in the dutch parliament about en elephant that fell in a zoo and broke his leg.
-Jester
freedom of press in europe - kandrathe - 10-23-2009
Quote:Be glad if your government is eccentric and harmless. There are much worse things for a government to be.Do you mean, like ours in the USA? I saw today that the Obama pay Czar is extending his power to set pay to *any* corporation (regardless of TARP) that is subject to regulation by the federal government.
freedom of press in europe - Jester - 10-23-2009
Quote:Do you mean, like ours in the USA? I saw today that the Obama pay Czar is extending his power to set pay to *any* corporation (regardless of TARP) that is subject to regulation by the federal government.A quick look at google news from yesterday seems to imply the opposite - this only affects those firms taking bailout money.
The quote:
Quote:But he stressed that he did not seek to expand the limits beyond the seven firms.Where did you hear otherwise?
"It's not a good idea for the United States government to start micro-managing compensation practices at American businesses," he said.
"But that's not this case. These are... seven specific companies that are, in effect, owned by the taxpayers of the United States."
-Jester
Afterthought: Additional hilarity - looters and moochers who took government bailout money now throwing Randian tantrum. Way to try and have it both ways, execs! Live on the public dime... until you have to put those dimes towards someone other than yourselves. Then throw a fit about how unfair government interference is.