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Calling all Terenas Druids - PapaSmurf - 11-14-2006
With the burning crusade coming up I wanted to start having a conversation about how we could spec our many druids to complement each other as much as possible. Here are the list of 60 and soon to be 60 druids on Terenas
Dunar
Fazuul
Sham
Dawnstrider
Jesana
Torenia (Thanks wimpy)
Allbeefpattie
Am I forgetting any?
I have been contemplating this hybrid balance/resto build. It is similar to what I have now, but it adds some more of the mana effeciency talents in the balance tree. I feel I could fill both a magic DPS and healer roll very competently with this build.
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classe...300501500000000
I have also been considering a tree of life build just to see what it would be like. I feel a tree of life build would really want to max on spirit to really take advantage of the talents and to maximize the effectiveness of the aura. This would be a total heal bott but could be very effective.
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classe...351531502531351
D
Calling all Terenas Druids - WimpySmurf - 11-14-2006
Quote:Tiga's Wife (sorry forgot her name) when she comes backTorenia
Ooh, an OOMkin. It's been at least 2 respecs since you did that. Though where's the Imp LOP option, Melee DPS need Imp LOP don't you know:)
Calling all Terenas Druids - PapaSmurf - 11-14-2006
The moonkin is just a side product of the build. I was really after the mana effeciency talents in the balance tree to help with healing. Between Moonglow, Lunar Guidance, and Dreamstate I feel it would add a significant punch to the healing longevity of Dunar
That build shows 2/3 in dreamstate so I could select the moonkin, but I did consider going 3/3 in dreamstate and dropping the moonkin. I just felt that in the occasional DPS role I would fill it would be nice to have the moonkin as well as any solo grinding I would need to do.
We also have several Feral druids right now with Sham and Dawn and I thought they would likely get the imp LOTP.
I've also heard from Jester that he wants his druid to be a moonkin. I don't know if he's planning a strict balance build or more of a hybrid build like I've done.
Calling all Terenas Druids - dawnstrider - 11-14-2006
Dunar, Your thinking with respect to how to design a balance/resto build is in line with my own thinking. If you get low enough to have mana issues, remember that moonkin form's melee procs can restore mana equal to attack power now. An oomkin on dreanor who is in TBC beta claims this is a big win and can net you a lot of mana. He is a very well geared out oomkin though (go go staff of the shadow flame on an oomkin). This same druid says that the 41 point balance talent isn't anything to blush at either, so you might consider giving it a try.
I personally think that all of the talent trees look pretty slick and don't want to lock myself into one role. With the decaying cost to respec, I plan to change my spec up from time to time (probably in the range of switching it around every month or every few months depending). At least till I find a role that I prefer over the others. I won't be starting with a balance build though. I am happy to try out either a feral build using mangle or a tree of life build. So if the other druids all want to be feral I will go tree of life and vice versa.
remember when planning your builds that we start at level 60 and it will be awhile before we reach 70. So make sure you plan your first few specs with leveling in mind. Specifically, if you want a mangle build for bear tanking remember that you won't get the new bear form bleed attack Maim till 62. You also don't get the cat forms Lacerate till 66. When considering a tree of life build, you won't get the new HoT spell Lifebloom till 64. This particular HoT is stackable 3 times, so it could nerf the Tree of Life form considerably till you have access to it.
If I do go with a tree of life build I am considering going with a build that skips all of the Healing Touch improvements after I get access to Lifebloom. I would then use my 20 extra points (at level 70) to pick up the ability to do a decent job of tanking in bear form. My hope being it would make me more versatile. What do you guys think? Do you think it would be better to just bottle myself into full healing versatility so I can morph out of tree form and cast some big heals over role versatility?
Also, I noticed this from [edit: the upcoming patch notes] "HoTs from different sources will now stack (i.e. multiple druids can cast the Rejuvenation spell on 1 target)." This means that if many of us want to go with tree of life builds we should all be able to be trees without worrying about stepping on each others toes with all of our HoTs. Cool stuff.
Anyhow, I am eager to try out the new feral and Resto builds and am happy to start with either one. I tend to avoid the oomkin stuff as I have a 60 frost mage and they both fill the same role. It's nice to have some variety.
Cheers
Calling all Terenas Druids - PapaSmurf - 11-14-2006
Frost,
When I was assembling the Tree of life build, I also considered not bothering the the healing touch skills to put some points elsewhere. I'd really like to do the math that compares healing in ToL form using the 3 heal over time spells compared to healing touch. I'm worried that the lack of "big" heals of a ToL form may reduce it to a more supplementary healing roll as opposed to a primary healing roll. HoTs are nice, but the "big" heals are still important for dealing with spiky damage.
Your point about the mana recovery in moonkin is well taken. You've made up my mind about taking that skill. I can really see the benefit of having another form of mana regeneration during those exceptionally long fights. I could see using Moonkin even when I'm in a primary healing roll.
Between
Moonglow - 9% reduction in mana cost
Lunar Guidance - +100 healing assuming 400 intellect
Dreamstate (2/3) - +28 Mp5 assuming 400 intellect
I feel this would be a GREAT healing touch build.
Calling all Terenas Druids - Jester - 11-14-2006
I'm really torn on this issue. Jesana may go through a fairly major identity crisis come the Burning Crusade.
On one hand, I really want an Oomkin. I think it'd be cool. If I did that, I'd bury myself so deep in the Balance tree I couldn't even *see* feral or healing from where I stood.
However, I think I want a healer more. (Not that I necessarily want a druid healer, but I don't have another healer above lv. 18.) If I did that, then there'd be choices.
I'm still throwing about possibilities. Maybe a balance of the two? Get a 31/0/30 build to grab Oomkin form, all the best mana regen talents, and what healing I can get? That strikes me as a nice compromise for 5-manning, but it sure wouldn't be raid-optimal. If I wanted a pure healer, I could also dive *very* deep into the restoration tree, given that there are almost no talents early in either other tree to help with a dedicated healbot.
One thing is certain: I'm not building feral. If I wanted a melee DPSer, I'd use Geldauran. If I wanted a tank, I'd use Geldauran.
-Jester
Dunar's 35/0/26 build looks almost ideal. I might very well go with that, or something quite similar.
Calling all Terenas Druids - PapaSmurf - 11-14-2006
As for progression from 60 to 70 I was planning on starting off with this build which is similar to what I have now.
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classe...300501000000000
At 61 I would add moonkin, then fill out gift of nature and dreamstate with my final point adding 1 more to moonfury. In fact I think I'll alter my previous build and remove 1 point from moonfury to add the 1 point to dreamstate to get the addition 3% Mp5.
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classe...300501500000000
D
Calling all Terenas Druids - dawnstrider - 11-14-2006
I made some changes to the first paragraph of my last post. (specifically that you should at least try the 41 poitn talent: Force of Nature. I hear it's pretty good).
Calling all Terenas Druids - PapaSmurf - 11-14-2006
Quote:I made some changes to the first paragraph of my last post. (specifically that you should at least try the 41 poitn talent: Force of Nature. I hear it's pretty good).
I'd still like my primary roll to be a healer and I think I would have to sacrifice too many key healing talents like Nature's Swiftness and Gift of Nature in order to get the 41 point talent.
D
Calling all Terenas Druids - dawnstrider - 11-14-2006
Specifically, here are the level 70 builds I would consider for Dawnstrider:
Full Oomkin build:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classe...301000000000000
I consider this to be a purist group DPS or PvP build. not for spot healing and not for soloing. which is why I have avoided abilities that might be considered essential for those roles (such as nature's focus or nature's grasp for soloing).
Oomkin/Resto build:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classe...300501500000000
I've skipped Nature's Focus here again with the assumption that I won't have aggro in groups.
Feral Build:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classe...001000000000000
This build assumes that you have the PvP gear which grants you the movement speed increase so you wouldn't need feeline swiftness. Also, I've taken Mangle over Nature's Swiftness because of the alternatives we will have for getting heals off due to Lacerate in cat form, Nurturing Instinct for bigger heals, and the new HoT lifebloom. If I found I needed more healing ability I might move 2 points from predatory instinct to brutal impact so that I would have another second to another HoT before morphing back to bear form. Also, I consider Mangle more important for group play as you shouldn't have to self heal very often (and probably never on boss fights).
Tree of Life build with off tank ability, but no Healing Touch ability:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classe...340031500531051
Full Resto build:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classe...351531502531351
Calling all Terenas Druids - PapaSmurf - 11-14-2006
I really like that Offtank/ToL build you have. I could be a very versatile build that could work well in the more exotic encounters we will most likely face in the expansion.
I've been playing around with some healing calculators to look at the effects of the different stats valuable for healers. It has becomre clear that Mp5 can have the biggest impact on your healing effectiveness and longevity, followed by +healing, then INT and SPI coming in a VERY distant fourth due to the long cast times of healing touch and the Five Second Rule with regards to SPI mana regenration. With this understanding a healing build with dreamstate that can easily add 30-40 Mp5 can be a huge jump in healing effectiveness. The vaule of the INT stat will be greatly enhanced with the 2 talents that add to Mp5 and healing with every point of INT added. I really feel this could be THE most effective build for a HT druid. The only downside to the build is the lack of healing threat reduction, I'll need to be more effective with the queued up NS heals that Fazuul is so fond of to avoid the early aggro that I got in the Mar'li fight on Sunday.
Calling all Terenas Druids - Klaus - 11-14-2006
Quote:Frost,
Your point about the mana recovery in moonkin is well taken. You've made up my mind about taking that skill. I can really see the benefit of having another form of mana regeneration during those exceptionally long fights. I could see using Moonkin even when I'm in a primary healing roll.
Um, in Mookin form you can only cast Balance spells. I thought that meant you couldn't cast heals. So, how does mana recovery in oomkin form help with the healing? I admit that I may be confused on some issue.
Calling all Terenas Druids - PapaSmurf - 11-14-2006
Quote:Um, in Mookin form you can only cast Balance spells. I thought that meant you couldn't cast heals. So, how does mana recovery in oomkin form help with the healing? I admit that I may be confused on some issue.
The idea is that when you are running low you would switch to moonkin and beat on a mob for a while to recover mana. This could be done while a backup healer covers your responsibilities. You could then switch back to druid form to continue healing.
Calling all Terenas Druids - Klaus - 11-14-2006
Quote:The idea is that when you are running low you would switch to moonkin and beat on a mob for a while to recover mana. This could be done while a backup healer covers your responsibilities. You could then switch back to druid form to continue healing.
It just seemed to me that 872 mana (base cost to shift to moonkin) was a pretty steep fixed floor you'd have to overcome. How much mana do you typically get back from the melee proc?
As a priest, of course, I use this "regen downtime" to wand, but druids don't get that choice, so maybe it makes sense.
Calling all Terenas Druids - vor_lord - 11-14-2006
Quote:It has becomre clear that Mp5 can have the biggest impact on your healing effectiveness and longevity, followed by +healing, then INT and SPI coming in a VERY distant fourth due to the long cast times of healing touch and the Five Second Rule with regards to SPI mana regenration.
I'd be hesitant to declare spirit so very low and MP5 so high, especially without knowing what healing patterns will be like in TBC. MP5 unfortunately has very little use whatsoever in a short fight. Spirit is in the same boat. +healing can be viewed as a flat mana efficiency increaser which works no matter what the duration of the fight is, and no matter how often you cast. The importance of Int continues to decrease as the fight wears on.
Currently I estimate that due to timing and heal cancelling, I spend half of raid fight time out of the FSR (i.e spirit is working). With stackable HoTs, I expect that percentage to increase come the next patch with current content.
Given the much bigger stamina pools in TBC though, it is hard to predict how much time you'll be under the FSR. I still think +heal will be extremely valuable. Its full power can be used for better HPS on those big stamina pools. It gives mana efficiency increases. The bigger your heal, the longer you can wait for the next one (again, damage pattern and rate dependent) so the more effective your spirit.
It will be very interesting to see in TBC how the encounters are designed.
Calling all Terenas Druids - PapaSmurf - 11-15-2006
Quote:I'd be hesitant to declare spirit so very low and MP5 so high, especially without knowing what healing patterns will be like in TBC. MP5 unfortunately has very little use whatsoever in a short fight. Spirit is in the same boat. +healing can be viewed as a flat mana efficiency increaser which works no matter what the duration of the fight is, and no matter how often you cast. The importance of Int continues to decrease as the fight wears on.
I would agree with your assesment. Certainly the impact of Mp5 on short fights is small. +healing seems to be the stat that can most benefit for all fight lengths. As we see more and more content from blizzard, we are seeing a move to more exotic and drawn out encounters. I bellieve that Mp5 will become more and more important in these situations.
As far as spirit is concerned, It is often necessary to choose between stats. In this situation I feel that Mp5 is superior to spirit because it applies in all situations. In addition spirit is not as effective for druids as it is for priests and mages. For druids 2 spi = 1 Mp5 where with priests and mages 1.6 spi = 1 Mp5. In VL's example lets assume that you would spend fully half your time out of the FSR it still would mean that for druids 4 spi = 1 Mp5, and I believe this only applies in unique situations. I realize that I'm not taking into account the +15% regen during casting talent that druids have but I'm trying to keep the analysis fairly simple. But if I had to choose between spi and Mp5 or spi and int I would choose Mp5 and int because int will also add +healing and Mp5 with the druid talents.
Given this discussion I would rate +healing and Mp5 as the highest priority with INT close behind and spirit again fourth.
One considerations that I haven't discussed is the impact of spirit on the effectiveness of innervate. Perhaps this merits more analysis.
D
Calling all Terenas Druids - PapaSmurf - 11-15-2006
Quote:It just seemed to me that 872 mana (base cost to shift to moonkin) was a pretty steep fixed floor you'd have to overcome. How much mana do you typically get back from the melee proc?
As a priest, of course, I use this "regen downtime" to wand, but druids don't get that choice, so maybe it makes sense.
I plan on having the talent that reduces shape shifting by 20%. That still would make the transition cost 700 mana which is still expensive. I haven't found any formulas yet that give the proc rates and amounts of the melee mana regen. (Maybe I'll need to derive this myself) Frost suggested that some friends of his that he knows in the BC beta think that from a feeling the mana regen seems to be effective. How effective for the situation I describe has yet to be determined.
Calling all Terenas Druids - vor_lord - 11-15-2006
Quote:As far as spirit is concerned, It is often necessary to choose between stats. In this situation I feel that Mp5 is superior to spirit because it applies in all situations. In addition spirit is not as effective for druids as it is for priests and mages. For druids 2 spi = 1 Mp5 where with priests and mages 1.6 spi = 1 Mp5.
Good news for druids though -- this is one of the things being changed. They will soon receive the same benefits for mana regen as priests and mages. Hmmm, I bet that is in the patch.
Quote: In VL's example lets assume that you would spend fully half your time out of the FSR it still would mean that for druids 4 spi = 1 Mp5, and I believe this only applies in unique situations.
You can attempt to try and gauge the relative value of spirit over MP5 when picking your gear by making a mathematical model of the fight. Remember that budget wise though, you can get a lot more spirit than you can MP5. The 1.6 SPI = 1 MP5 can really only be used to determine when it is ALWAYS preferable to pick the MP5 over the spirit (i.e. you are never under the FSR). It all has to do with the amounts available and the time spent under FSR.
I used to use a spreadsheet where I filled in % of time under the FSR, and duration of the fight. It would calculate for you the total mana for a given piece of gear under those conditions, even taking into account talents for spirit regen.
The real trick, and the 'holy grail' of the mana effciency healing model, is to do a good job of entering +heal into the equation. It's quite easy to compare spirit and MP5, quite difficult to add +heal. The model could of course add in the +heal gained through Int.
Quote:One considerations that I haven't discussed is the impact of spirit on the effectiveness of innervate. Perhaps this merits more analysis.
The effect of innervate is also easily added to my spreadsheet.
I really like the balance/resto hybrid -- if I had a druid that would be how I would go. Another consideration is that spirit isn't so great for DPS as you are trying to spend your time casting constantly for damage. It'd be nice to have DPS gear overlap with your healing gear, and Int + MP5 help both.
A tree druid, however, has additional incentive to stack Spirit. It's a very interesting set of choices to make.
Calling all Terenas Druids - dawnstrider - 11-15-2006
One thing to bear in mind when comparing MP5 with spirit is that it can often times be easier to find gear with a large amount of spirit than it is to find large amounts of MP5. You have to analyse each piece of gear against the alternative piece of gear before you can decide what is better. If you have the choice of something with 3 MP5 vs 30 spirit I would hope you would take the spirit (all other factors being equal).
Additionally, ToL will now add +healing with spirit to all group members so spirit is going to be a big win for ToL druids. Also, "Living Spirit" gives a 15% spirit boost which will give you more mileage out of gear with spirit on it. This will drop your 2 spirit = 1 MP5 (or 1.6 spirit = 1 MP5 depending) ratio even lower.
Alternatively, moonkin druids will get MP5 for a high Int, so they will likely push int a lot harder. They will also very rarely be outside of the MP5 window as they can dps when not healing so mp5 will likely be preferable to a high spirit (especially if you don't have intensity).
Calling all Terenas Druids - PapaSmurf - 11-15-2006
Quote:Additionally, ToL will now add +healing with spirit to all group members so spirit is going to be a big win for ToL druids. Also, "Living Spirit" gives a 15% spirit boost which will give you more mileage out of gear with spirit on it. This will drop your 2 spirit = 1 MP5 (or 1.6 spirit = 1 MP5 depending) ratio even lower.
I agree, SPI will be much more important for Tree of Life. Much of the points that I've been making in this thread focus on the Balance/Resto build that I plan on using in the expansion. The real effectiveness of SPI will be determined by the encounters in TBC and the amount of time spent in the 5 second rule.