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+--- Thread: Did I ever mention that I hate cops? (/thread-3651.html)
Did I ever mention that I hate cops? - Ashock - 11-17-2006
http://break.com/index/student_gets_tazed_..._having_id.html
"Just as every cop is a criminal, and all the sinners saints" -Sympathy for the Devil
At least the first part is too often accurate.
-A
Did I ever mention that I hate cops? - Rhydderch Hael - 11-17-2006
That's not news.
I mean, the incident itself is newsworthy. The page you linked, however, doesn't deliver news, but rather is flat-out lying to you in order to incite an emotional reaction (telling you only the first and last points in a series of events can hardly be described as "truth").
Beware the power of my link-Fu! Wah-shaaaaa!.
Did I ever mention that I hate cops? - Ashock - 11-17-2006
Quote:That's not news.
I mean, the incident itself is newsworthy. The page you linked, however, doesn't deliver news, but rather is flat-out lying to you in order to incite an emotional reaction (telling you only the first and last points in a series of events can hardly be described as "truth").
Beware the power of my link-Fu! Wah-shaaaaa!.
Listen, I'm not saying he should not have been handcuffed and taken outside and I'm not saying he was right in refusing to show his ID. However, the methods used in...... ummmm.... restraining him?
I'm not a fan of lawsuites and I generally hate lawyers who practice this type of law... well, actually any law. Except my wife, of course :shuriken:
This incident deserves it.
-A
ps. I hate cops.
Did I ever mention that I hate cops? - Delc - 11-17-2006
Don't mess with em, they are less likely to mess with you. What is so damn hard about pulling out your student ID like everyone else? I'd tazer him too.
Did I ever mention that I hate cops? - Rhydderch Hael - 11-17-2006
Quote:Listen, I'm not saying he should not have been handcuffed and taken outside and I'm not saying he was right in refusing to show his ID. ...But are you saying it was right for him to refuse to leave the library or react aggressively when a cop tries to lead him forcibly out of the library?
Did I ever mention that I hate cops? - Ashock - 11-17-2006
Quote:But are you saying it was right for him to refuse to leave the library or react aggressively when a cop tries to lead him forcibly out of the library?
There were 6 cops there. He did not have a weapon. Why taze him?
Because they can. And that's the whole problem. Cops have almost absolute power, even these days. You know the rest.
-A
Did I ever mention that I hate cops? - Tal - 11-17-2006
Quote:Listen, I'm not saying he should not have been handcuffed and taken outside and I'm not saying he was right in refusing to show his ID. However, the methods used in...... ummmm.... restraining him?
I'm not a fan of lawsuites and I generally hate lawyers who practice this type of law... well, actually any law. Except my wife, of course :shuriken:
This incident deserves it.
-A
ps. I hate cops.
How would you restrain him? Beat him until he's compliant? Administer mace? Drag him out of the building by his wrists?
I can tell you having been maced AND tazered I think I would prefer the latter over the former if I had a choice. It also amazes me that the kid continued to resist after the first tazering. I know when it happened to me I was more than willing to do whatever was necessary to stop it from happening again.
Edit: And before folks ask it was part of my Military police training.:P
Did I ever mention that I hate cops? - Chaerophon - 11-17-2006
Quote:Don't mess with em, they are less likely to mess with you. What is so damn hard about pulling out your student ID like everyone else? I'd tazer him too.
I believe his problem was that they hadn't asked everyone else to pull out their student cards, that he was singled out due to his race. He's claiming racial profiling.
If that is actually true, then I can honestly say that I might very well have done the same thing.
Did I ever mention that I hate cops? - Ashock - 11-17-2006
Quote:I believe his problem was that they hadn't asked everyone else to pull out their student cards, that he was singled out due to his race. He's claiming racial profiling.
If that is actually true, then I can honestly say that I might very well have done the same thing.
He's claiming racial profiling because that's what his lawyer told him to do. Frankly, this is unimportant to me.
As far as how to restrain him, as Tal asked?
There are numerous ways that a supposedly trained cop can restrain without tazering, killing or breaking bones.... and there were 6 of them. I'm not saying that tazering is inappropriate no matter what, btw. But for this?
I don't think so.
He was wearing a teeshirt, I believe. What, they were afraid he was going to pull explosives out of his butt?
Again, I'm not saying he was right and I'm not saying they should not have restrained him using other means.
As I've said, they have absolute power, or at least they believe so. These guys need to be put to jail. Hopefully without using the completely pathetic race card.
Edit: Tal, you weren't used as a practice dummy in the military, were you? I know the Russian Special Forces used people for that. They were called different things, ranging from Ragdoll, to Gladiator to Volunteer. I did not realize that the US did the same thing ;)Where you a Gladiator, Tal? Oh wait, you'd be dead then. NM :shuriken:
-A
Did I ever mention that I hate cops? - Chaerophon - 11-18-2006
I found this elsewhere (posted by a police officer). Sounds about right to me.
Lets begin where the cops asked him to stop and he ignored them.
Quote:Cop: Sir, please stay here until we understand the situation.
Guy: Just get the **** off of me.
Cop: I can't let you leave until we figure out what's going on here, please, it'll only take a second.
*guy keeps walking*
*cop gets in front of him*
Cop: I can't let you leave
*guy pulls away*
*cop grabs by shoulders and puts guy against wall*
At this point I'll assume the guy resists and starts flailing his arms and what not...
*cop pulls guy back, placing him on the ground, on his stomach*
Cop: I'm going to detain you because you're not following my lawful instructions, understand?
Guy: THIS IS WHAT YOUR ******* PATRIOT ACT IS COMING TOO blah blah blah.
*cop attempts to cuff guy*
Cop: I am placing you under arrest for obstructing governmental administration. You have 2 choices: Either relax your arms so I can handcuff you and we walk out of here, or I will call for more officers and we will strap you to a backboard for your safety and take you to the hospital.
ta da, is it really that hard??
Did I ever mention that I hate cops? - Griselda - 11-18-2006
The cops shot and killed a mentally ill man two blocks from my house last year (in front of the house of a 6-year-old) because he was waving a metal rod around, thinking he was directing traffic with his magic wand. Apparently the cops decided that the rod was a deadly weapon and that he was attacking them.
When they reviewed the case, it turned out the the cops had been following department protocol. It would sure be nice if there was more training and available in negotiation and conflict resolution, and that protocols were written that didn't involve shooting to kill at the first suspicion that something was awry.
Did I ever mention that I hate cops? - Archon_Wing - 11-18-2006
I don't think we're arguing what the student did was wrong or not. It wouldn't be acceptable to beat people up for littering would it? And yes, I do know the student in question was acting aggressive, but there must be tons of better ways of dealing with this. And really, judging from the video, I'm not sure how much restraint the officers used-- it didn't look like they were trying to avoid further provoking a clearly unstable person.
"But he started it" does not work here.
Had he started attacking one of the officers, by all means, take him down. This didn't seem to be the case.
Did I ever mention that I hate cops? - BigGrim - 11-18-2006
Quote:He's claiming racial profiling because that's what his lawyer told him to do. Frankly, this is unimportant to me.
As far as how to restrain him, as Tal asked?
There are numerous ways that a supposedly trained cop can restrain without tazering, killing or breaking bones.... and there were 6 of them. I'm not saying that tazering is inappropriate no matter what, btw. But for this?
I don't think so.
He was wearing a teeshirt, I believe. What, they were afraid he was going to pull explosives out of his butt?
According to the link Rhydderch gave and several other news articles provided by Google, the campus police decided to taze him after he decided to verbally encourage others to join his acts of resistance. Physical restraint doesn't stop someone from trying to incite civil unrest.
I'd like to see a video from a more all-encompassing angle with the audio a bit clearer, but until there's actual proof of racial profiling or they debunk the police claim that he was trying to create a mass demonstration of civil disobedience because of it, I'm not too upset that he got zapped.
After all, the injuries sustained were supposedly from contusions, likely from the repeated attempts to get him off the floor that he fought. I don't see the reports of broken bones or bleeding caused by punches to the face or cracks to the head with a nightstick. There's a reason why tazers are considered to be non-lethal force.
Well, unless you have a heart condition...
Did I ever mention that I hate cops? - Taem - 11-18-2006
Quote:ps. I hate cops.
While I don't exactly "love" police officers, your emotional statement is pretty absurd - just try imagining a lawless society without anyone around to [enforce] the law. Might as well move to Texas and carry a gun (occhi?). I've had several confrontations with police officers; what usually happens is they come up on me and try asserting their, for lack of a better word, energy [or force of personality?] over mine, but I don't allow this. They instantly reach for their gun and try standing OVER me, looking me down and I just coolly stare at them and never let their energy assert itself OVER mine, and it pisses them off - I donât change my demeanor to anything offensive, I consciously keep my eyes and voice mellow so as not to provoke their attention, however I can âfeelâ their presence trying to overcome mine and I simply wonât allow it. I want equal respect from them, not to be treated like a suspect. This happens to me EVERY-TIME I encounter police officers close and personal so I know I'm not imagining this occurrence. I think the [real-issue] here however is not police officers themselves, but their training and their bosses.
Question: Why do you "hate" police officers? Have you ever asked yourself that? Keep in mind police officers are JUST AS CORRUPTABLE as the next man, so I don't trust them as far as I can spit, but I still have a healthy respect for their job, and I don't envy them. For someone whose job is to "serve and protect the public" when the majority of youth hates them, it's got to lead to some very intense conflicting emotions. No, I do not envy them, but I respect their job (not them directly - each individual needs to "earn" their own respect in my eyes, and no badge or crown automatically gives it too them). I think before you claim you âhateâ cops, you should try imagining a world without them first. Just my 2-cents.
Did I ever mention that I hate cops? - Doc - 11-18-2006
How to avoid having your ass kicked by the police.
Did I ever mention that I hate cops? - Munkay - 11-18-2006
Quote:Don't mess with em, they are less likely to mess with you. What is so damn hard about pulling out your student ID like everyone else? I'd tazer him too.
:mellow:
You also for shooting people who have overdue library books?
Did I ever mention that I hate cops? - Nystul - 11-18-2006
It seems like the kid wanted to make a spectacle of the situation. It's not the original rule that he broke, but the fact that that he refused to let the law enforcement finish their business. If a person had walked away from an undercover asking for ID at a bar/party, or driven away from a trooper asking for ID after pulling him over, he would have ended up on the ground in cuffs too. I don't know if the tasers were necessary, but they are probably considered more image-friendly in LA than billy clubs or a violent looking physical struggle...
Did I ever mention that I hate cops? - eppie - 11-18-2006
Quote:http://break.com/index/student_gets_tazed_..._having_id.html
"Just as every cop is a criminal, and all the sinners saints" -Sympathy for the Devil
At least the first part is too often accurate.
-A
This is exactly in small what happens in large in the world in the war on terrorism.
If for small stupid things like this you start maltreating people, the only thing you create is more hatred against yourself (the police in this case).
Of course lawfully you should not resist when the police is trying to get you out of a building, but i can very well imagine the anger of the person that is being dragged out for stupid reasons. It is degrading and unfair.
And the only thing that the policemen aacomplished is several thousands more people (that saw this movie) start hating them.
Did I ever mention that I hate cops? - Munkay - 11-18-2006
Quote:[...]I don't know if the tasers were necessary, but they are probably considered more image-friendly in LA than billy clubs or a violent looking physical struggle...
I think you make a fair point Nystul, but I have to ask how much of the video did you watch? I only bring it up because this appears to be a case where the student's protest was becoming limp on the floor and refusing to get up. If he was restrained by cuffs, and walked out by two police officers there wouldn't be such a fiasco about the situation. Even if he decided to fight back violently against the police officers, they would have already restrained his hands with cuffs, and then there would be less of a fuss if the taser was used.
It's a misuse of power no matter how you slice it. The issue isn't just the taser, but the fact that it was used at least 5 times - and by the 4th you can hear the student saying "I can't get up" to their commands to stand up, leading to another tasering.
The issue is not just the fact that he was tasered, but how many times and under what continuing circumstances.
Cheers,
Munk
Did I ever mention that I hate cops? - Munkay - 11-18-2006
Quote:This is exactly in small what happens in large in the world in the war on terrorism.
If for small stupid things like this you start maltreating people, the only thing you create is more hatred against yourself (the police in this case).
Of course lawfully you should not resist when the police is trying to get you out of a building, but i can very well imagine the anger of the person that is being dragged out for stupid reasons. It is degrading and unfair.
And the only thing that the policemen aacomplished is several thousands more people (that saw this movie) start hating them.
Eppie, there are two issues at hand and neither have anything to do with what happens in the war on terrorism.
The first issue is that somebody who worked at the library (probably a student worker) asked for the students ID. He failed to produce it and the police were contacted. Everything the library worker did was within the library rules - every student must produce an ID to enter that area of the library at that time. Even if the worker wasn't screening everybody (like they should have), the issue of 'profiling' the student is minimized by the rule that every student must produce an ID. Profiling or not, refusing your ID and gaining entry was not an option.
The second issue has nothing to do with profiling. It has to do with some maltrained police officers reacting poorly in the given situation. Even if you believe a taser was warranted in this situation, it's clear that 5-6 taser shots was excessive. There does not appear to be any racial profiling on the behalf of the police officers. They clearly speak their command, and repeat it over and over again. There is also due warning of the oncoming tasering if student does not comply to their commands. The only thing at issue here is that the police officers should have known how to better handle the situation - including adapting their treatment of the non-compliant yet unaggressive student, especially in face of the crowd of people.
Eppie, you seem awfully quick to jump the gun and point fingers at the US. It's a big country, and the missteps of a few under trained individuals is not equivalent to the foreign political agenda. Do yourself a favor and separate the two.
Cheers,
Munk