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Rogue + Shadow Priest 2v2 - NotSoDarklord - 12-13-2007
2v2 is a bracket that most people have long since forsaken due to the dominance of power combos such as warrior druid and warlock druid, carried to success by the tremendous power a druid healer has in smaller bracket pvp. I ran Holy priest (Disc after 2.3) Combat rogue (Hemo after 2.3) for season 2 was driven to the point of quitting time and time again by the manner in which games can be lost before the gates open. Warrior shaman was a tough match, warrior paladin a nightmare, and a well played warrior druid flat out impossible. Having had enough my priest healer decided to go shadow for season 3 in 2v2.
The setup: Hemo rogue + Shadow/Discipline Priest. Extreme offensive pressure combined with coordinated silences and ccs to win games in a matter of seconds. Hemo rogues have amazing utility and great damage that meshes well with shadow priests, who have amazing damage but lack the tools to stay alive for long against teams and also lack the mana pool to sustain a drawn out match. Our team expected immediate success, but it was only after 100 games or so that we finally feel confident and have begun rising top the top page of our battlegroup.
Teams that are directly countered by this setup: Warrior teams in general excluding warrior priest. Nearly all top warriors agree that this setup is the hardest match for a warrior druid to beat.
Teams that directly counter this setup: Double melee dps setups. Rogue rogue or rogue hunter or rogue warrior or hunter warrior games will turn into zergfests. One team having the ability to almost completely lack down one of your dpsers will often make this a losing battle.
Tough teams: Warlock + healer. BM hunter DIsc priest. Warrior disc priest.
Easy teams: Non-undead rogue+ non-rogue teams (more on this in a bit)
General strategy: As an overview the strategy of this team is to have the shadowpriest and rogue attack the same target, generally a dpser. The rogue's job is to avoid taking damage with the use of ghostly strike + evasion + vanish + cloak of shadows whenever necessary while doing as much damage as quickly as possible. Each fight should begin with the rogue attempting to sap the less favorable killing target. Stuns are useful but avoid stunning too much as it cuts into dps a substantial amount. The rogue should toss out blind on the target not being focused to either cut down the damage on the shadow priest in the case of double dps teams or to interrupt/stop healing in the case of dps healer teams. The shadow priest on the other hand must stay alive long enough to kill the target providing dispels and mass dispels when needed, damage when not pressured to dispel, and bursting with shadow word death to kill targets. When the target reaches critically low health (30-40% and below) the shadow priest should silence any healers and the target killled in this window. Focus macros improve general quickness in this case for the silences and blinds.
Specific Strategies
vs Warrior Druid: This is perhaps one of the few matches that can be played differently. Most warriors can simply be blown up from under the druid. If the warrior does not seem to understand how to "D Up" by spell reflecting and using intervene then just apply massive damage to him and he should go down. The rogue should use a focus cast bar set to the druid to vanish and cloak out of cyclones before they actually hit wasting the druid's time and forcing him to fall further and further behind on healing leaving him ultimately open to blind/silence interruption. If the warrior does "D up" and go sword and board from the start have the shadow priest solo the warrior with the rogue waiting to pop on the druid once he comes out to heal. At this point the shadow priest should mindflay to slow the druid even if just for a second. If the rogue successfully catches the druid the game should be over. Use kidney shots cheapshots mind flays and uiltimately shadow priest silence combined with improved kick silence to finish the druid off.
vs Non-Undead rogue + Nonrogue: Rogues are conditioned to attack shadow priests above all else, and if you try running this comp in 2v2 you will notice this immediately. Always try to catch the rogue with a sap but this is not a reliable way to win this fight, instead plan on having your priest take the opening cheapshot and trinket out of the kidney shot while your rogue attacks the other team's partner with all out dps. The shadow priest should dispel fear ward if it is indeed on the rogue and then fear him. At this point nearly all nonundead rogues will trinket rather than rely on any dispeller if they indeed have one. If this happens the fight is over. Blind the rogue and once the blind is nearly broken vanish (cloak if need be to avoid dot ticks, you can simply time this very well but it is much harder) and sap him to cc him for over 10 seconds during which both dpsers will have free reign over the other team's partner. The only exception to this is mage rogue that sometimes base their strategies around killing the rogue while sheeping the priest. If this is the case simply have your rogue save defensive cooldowns such as cloak and vanish for times when the shadow priest is polymorphed and just wait for the polymorphs to break, granting semi-immunity to the shadowpriest in the form of diminishing returns.
vs Warrior Paladin/Warrior Shaman: Straight up dps zerg the warrior with silences/blinds/fears on the healer. Very easy to win but be mindful of divine shielded paladins and attempt to mass dispel immediately.
vs Warlock Healer: This is a hard fight. Paladin warlock teams are very susceptible to fear blind sap rotations once the paladin's bubble is down. Occasionally a game can be won before the paladin has a chance to heal in his bubble through a simple shadow priest silence but I recommend stripping the bubble asap instead of trying to dps through the paladin's heals. Warlock druid teams on the other hand can be won by killing the druid or the warlock, we have had the most success disrupting the druid while putting high dps on the warlock.
I hope this information proves useful to someone. We entered this season with high hopes only to nearly drive my shadow priest to quit in frustration every time a rogue rendered him useless for an entire match. We came back with a much more strategic mindset and have since found 2v2 to be enjoyable, something few people will ever admit to, we currently sit at around 2050 and have yet to run into a team that truly felt unbeatable. Please, point out any flaws you see in these strategies or reply with your own experiences whether they may be similiar or different.
Rogue + Shadow Priest 2v2 - Bolty - 12-13-2007
This is indeed a new hot combo, one that my discpriest/rogue team has run up against multiple times, only beating once (my rogue is undergeared, though). The combo of silence, fear, and blind all in a row can allow the team to wafflestomp my rogue while I'm shut down. If my rogue partner ever hits 60% health, it's over. I'm still training him to save that CoS/Vanish for the CC string instead of blowing it earlier.
One of the things that a really quality rogue/shadowpriest team will use is positioning (of course, positioning is always what separates gladiator teams from runner-ups), forcing me to come in close to heal my partner. This opens me up to the fears and blinds, blind especially being the game-breaker now that Stoneform can't get me out of it.
I just remember fighting a bunch of these teams and thinking "hey, these guys might actually be able to beat the ez-mode ultracheese of warrior/druid." God I hate Druids.
"Huh huh huh huh hey Beavis, watch my Cyclone/Cyclone/Cyclone/Feral Charge/Warstomp lock down this Priest for literally 20 entire seconds. Isn't that fair? Hoo boy!"
-Bolty
Rogue + Shadow Priest 2v2 - Taelas - 12-13-2007
Quote:God I hate Druids.You have to be a Tauren for that.<_<I hate Tauren sometimes. +5% health for PvE tanking, Warstomp for PvP... I hope Blizzard faces how overpowered that race is sometime.
"Huh huh huh huh hey Beavis, watch my Cyclone/Cyclone/Cyclone/Feral Charge/Warstomp lock down this Priest for literally 20 entire seconds. Isn't that fair? Hoo boy!"
Rogue + Shadow Priest 2v2 - Klaus - 12-14-2007
Quote:You have to be a Tauren for that.<_<I hate Tauren sometimes. +5% health for PvE tanking, Warstomp for PvP... I hope Blizzard faces how overpowered that race is sometime.
I love how the grass is always greener. It's the Night Elves that piss me off. "They have 2 people guarding the mine", "That you can see, that is", "Oh yeah. *sigh*"
Rogue + Shadow Priest 2v2 - NotSoDarklord - 12-14-2007
Quote:This is indeed a new hot combo, one that my discpriest/rogue team has run up against multiple times, only beating once (my rogue is undergeared, though). The combo of silence, fear, and blind all in a row can allow the team to wafflestomp my rogue while I'm shut down. If my rogue partner ever hits 60% health, it's over. I'm still training him to save that CoS/Vanish for the CC string instead of blowing it earlier.
-Bolty
Toss out Pain Supression while silenced by the shadow priest. It feels a bit unintended but can be lifesaving if they silence early and you find yourself in a jam.
Rogue + Shadow Priest 2v2 - Watto44 - 12-14-2007
Quote:You have to be a Tauren for that.<_<I hate Tauren sometimes. +5% health for PvE tanking, Warstomp for PvP... I hope Blizzard faces how overpowered that race is sometime.The grass is definately always greener. Many a time I've wished I could drink and shadowmeld.
But still, warstomp and 5% HP definately rocks.:)
Rogue + Shadow Priest 2v2 - Artega - 12-14-2007
Because Rogues that are immune to all forms of dots and Warriors that can break roots and snares on their own is perfectly balanced.
Or how about Hunters and Warriors that will almost invariably get the first shot due to stealth, or Priests who can chill in stealth mode, waiting for the right moment to pop out to either heal or DPS?
Rogue + Shadow Priest 2v2 - Bolty - 12-14-2007
Quote:Toss out Pain Supression while silenced by the shadow priest. It feels a bit unintended but can be lifesaving if they silence early and you find yourself in a jam.I thought they fixed this already (they admitted it was a bug).
-Bolty
Rogue + Shadow Priest 2v2 - Taelas - 12-14-2007
Quote:I love how the grass is always greener. It's the Night Elves that piss me off. "They have 2 people guarding the mine", "That you can see, that is", "Oh yeah. *sigh*":huh:
I don't even have Shadowmeld on my bar. I don't PvP, so I have absolutely zero use for it.
Warstomp annoys me, but it's the +5% health for tanks in PvE that is the real imbalance.
Rogue + Shadow Priest 2v2 - Lissa - 12-14-2007
Quote: but it's the +5% health for tanks in PvE that is the real imbalance.
Quick note on that, this is what allows Tauren tanks to shoot for uncrushable without losing significant health. They're pretty much the only race that can hit uncrushable without sacrificing a good deal of health.
Rogue + Shadow Priest 2v2 - Delc - 12-14-2007
1000hp hardly seems gamebreaking.
Rogue + Shadow Priest 2v2 - Taelas - 12-14-2007
Quote:Quick note on that, this is what allows Tauren tanks to shoot for uncrushable without losing significant health. They're pretty much the only race that can hit uncrushable without sacrificing a good deal of health.Eh. Any race can shoot for passive uncrushability. That's not where the +5% health bonus becomes a problem.
And Delc, it's not gamebreaking. It is however a completely massive advantage -- and one that makes absolutely no sense.
Rogue + Shadow Priest 2v2 - Klaus - 12-14-2007
Quote:Eh. Any race can shoot for passive uncrushability. That's not where the +5% health bonus becomes a problem.
And Delc, it's not gamebreaking. It is however a completely massive advantage -- and one that makes absolutely no sense.
Well, before the fear ward and pally/shaman fixes, it was one of the few advantages to raiding on horde. Prior to that, alliance had raid-wide pally buffs and unfearable tanks, and horde had tauren tanks and party-limited totems. It didn't really feel like a fair trade. As it is now, it's definitely a horde-side advantage. Of course, alliance shadow priests got an extra free dot, which kind of ticks me off. *shrug*
Shadowmeld is admittedly more-or-less useless for PVE, but massively destructive in PVP.
Rogue + Shadow Priest 2v2 - Tal - 12-14-2007
Quote:And Delc, it's not gamebreaking. It is however a completely massive advantage -- and one that makes absolutely no sense.
Wait. You're saying a big beefy man-cow (or woman-cow) with 5% more health than other races makes no sense?
When it comes to racial abilities folks get their knickers bound up around the funniest things.
Bloodelves and their arcane torrent
Draenai +1% to hit (spell/melee)
Dwarves and their stoneform (and oddly enough at beta end treasure finding)
Gnomes and escape artist
Humans with perception and diplomacy
Nightelves with shadowmeld and dodge
Orcs with bloodfury and stun resistance
Tauren with 5% to stamina and warstomp
Trolls with...well...uh...I guess someone might complain about berserking but I haven't seen it yet...
Undead with will of the forsaken
Thing is that none of them give a completely massive advantage in any area of the game. You have a tank with a bit more life than the others or one who can throw off fear. Big deal - very few bosses hit SO hard that 1k life is going to make or break an encounter totally.
Rogue + Shadow Priest 2v2 - TheDragoon - 12-14-2007
Quote:Quick note on that, this is what allows Tauren tanks to shoot for uncrushable without losing significant health. They're pretty much the only race that can hit uncrushable without sacrificing a good deal of health.I'm not sure what you mean by this. Druids can't become uncrushable (at least not easily). Warriors get uncrushable without any worry about gear (+75% block means they only need 27.4% combined miss/dodge/parry/block to be uncrushable). Taurens can't be paladins (which would actually make very good use of the extra life).
Rogue + Shadow Priest 2v2 - Lissa - 12-14-2007
Quote:I'm not sure what you mean by this. Druids can't become uncrushable (at least not easily). Warriors get uncrushable without any worry about gear (+75% block means they only need 27.4% combined miss/dodge/parry/block to be uncrushable). Taurens can't be paladins (which would actually make very good use of the extra life).
No, this is uncrushable without shield block. The main tank for Nilhilim was specifically getting to uncrushable without using shield block and every other non-Tauren warrior that was near them was seeing it as not possible because they would lose too much health where the 5% health advantage was giving Tauren Warriors the ability to pull off what other Warrior could not, uncrushability at all times. Me and Skan got to discussing this and the thought was there were just too much health that would need to be given up by non-Tauren Warriors to achieve this mark due to a variety of special attacks that could net 18k to 19k in a split second. So yes Delc, 1k more health can and does make the difference.
Rogue + Shadow Priest 2v2 - RTM - 12-14-2007
No more AR + Prep in 2.3.2:
Latest Patch Notes Wrote:* Ambush: The damage multiplier on this ability has been increased from 250% to 275%.
* Cheat Death: When multiple attacks land simultaenously, all those resolved after the attack which triggered Cheat Death will now have their damage reduced by 90% as intended. However, the combat log will still report them doing full damage.
* Hemorrhage: Rank 4 of this ability no longer has its charges consumed by non-physical attacks and spells.
* Hemorrhage weapon damage reduced from 125% to 110%, but the damage debuff has been increased.
* Hemorrhage: This ability now correctly does additional damage when its debuff has already been applied.
* Preparation now resets the cooldown of Shadowstep and no longer resets the cooldown of Adrenaline Rush.
* Shadowstep now adds a 3 second, 70% movement speed increase.
* Sinister Calling now also increases the percentage damage bonus of Hemorrhage and Backstab by 2/4/6/8/10%.
It's really too bad you have to give up all the tasty mid-combat talents to get Shadowstep. I'd love to try raiding with it and still be competitive.
Rogue + Shadow Priest 2v2 - Taelas - 12-14-2007
Quote:No, this is uncrushable without shield block. The main tank for Nilhilim was specifically getting to uncrushable without using shield block and every other non-Tauren warrior that was near them was seeing it as not possible because they would lose too much health where the 5% health advantage was giving Tauren Warriors the ability to pull off what other Warrior could not, uncrushability at all times. Me and Skan got to discussing this and the thought was there were just too much health that would need to be given up by non-Tauren Warriors to achieve this mark due to a variety of special attacks that could net 18k to 19k in a split second. So yes Delc, 1k more health can and does make the difference.
This is plain and simply wrong. Passive uncrushability is very valid for any race -- especially with the ZA/badge gear from 2.3.
Passive uncrushable is attainable for anyone in a mix of T5, ZA and badge gear. It is not even hard.
Quote:Wait. You're saying a big beefy man-cow (or woman-cow) with 5% more health than other races makes no sense?No, what makes no sense is that Horde gets such a massive advantage over Alliance. The health bonus was fine pre-TBC -- it might even have been too little, with BoK -- but afterwards...
Rogue + Shadow Priest 2v2 - Tal - 12-14-2007
Quote:No, what makes no sense is that Horde gets such a massive advantage over Alliance. The health bonus was fine pre-TBC -- it might even have been too little, with BoK -- but afterwards...
I'd have to do some more research but doesn't the racial only apply to raw stamina with gear rather than buffs like Fortitude and Blessing of Kings?
Rogue + Shadow Priest 2v2 - Taelas - 12-14-2007
Just the opposite. It's a health bonus, not a stamina bonus. It is applied after everything, and thus scales with even normally non-scaling health buffs (such as Flasks).