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Social Engineering with a Badge - Rhydderch Hael - 03-05-2008
This article showed up in the local cage-liner today:
Quote:PALMDALE - Four women were arrested Friday on grand theft charges in a sting operation set up to determine whether individuals would turn in a bag or wallet containing $400 to Antelope Valley Mall personnel or law enforcement officials.
However, some of the women believe they were wrongly arrested and never given the chance to hand over the bag or wallet to authorities.
"They were given the opportunity to turn in the property," said Deputy Charles Lemke of the Palmdale Sheriff's Station. "There is no particular prescribed method in how we do it."
Individuals were arrested if they picked up the property and tried to conceal it or didn't immediately turn it over to authorities, who Lemke said were walking around the mall during Friday's sting operation.
An armed uniformed deputy or security guard, he said, walked up and stood next to the individuals who picked up the wallet.
"They made themselves very known," Lemke said.
Quote:...The operation was the second of its kind, he said. Supported by mall security and personnel, it was conducted by the sheriff's station's Partners for a Better Palmdale deputies to determine if individuals misappropriated found property or committed grand theft, Lemke said.Incidental observation of a crime being committed and making an arrest from that is one thing (an important thing called "probable cause", I imagine) but deliberately setting up a situation to arrest anyone who reacts disfavorably to your action reeks of entrapment to me. And if the second paragraph I quoted suggests that this was an exercise to educate people that they better be angels (or else!), then why use a wallet with $400 as bait instead of one carrying considerably less? Oh, because they wanted to press Grand Theft charges on the offenders.
"We are trying to make the mall a safer place for everybody," he said. "We want people to have a conscience to turn in property to the proper authorities."
I'd be happy with the idea that police are there to catch people who haven't learned their "Sunday-school" lessons, so to speak. I'm less than happy that they'd take up the job of teaching folks that lesson through false circumstances, punctuated by very real consequences.
Social Engineering with a Badge - Nystul - 03-06-2008
I don't mind sting operations in general, but this sounds fairly ridiculous. In the first place, we have far bigger crimes to worry about than someone taking the money out of a lost wallet. If they had taken the wallet/purse, pulled out a credit card, and attempted to make a purchase with it at one of the mall's stores, that would be another matter. Since they were arrested on the premises where they found the property, the number of excuses they can make for not turning it over to the first officer in sight are endless, legitimate or not. They are trying to convict people of an inaction, which surely can't be defined in legal statute. It should just about impossible to prove these people are guilty of theft, and they should probably sue for malicious prosecution after the fact.
There was a local story around here involving a sting operation in which a female officer would sunbathe in the city park sans top, and coax men into exposing themselves. That is apparently legal dress for public parks in Columbus, but hardly within the social norms. The creeps are a real problem, but could be caught more accurately by going out there at night in plain clothes and looking behind the trees or something. Instead of deterring the common criminal, they go after people who react poorly to an unusual situation. Same with this purse turn in.. how about trying to catch actual pickpockets or shoplifters instead of the lady who would dare to find a dollar in public and pocket it?
Social Engineering with a Badge - Zippyy - 03-09-2008
Same Old Story Wrote:"Hey man, got any weed?"
"No."
"C'mon, I know you got some."
"I don't have any."
"Don't be a holdout. Hook me up!"
"Look, I don't have any, but I know where you can get some."
"You're under arrest."
Do precincts get paid per arrest? Is that why they feel they have to trick people into being criminals?
Social Engineering with a Badge - Jester - 03-09-2008
Quote:Do precincts get paid per arrest? Is that why they feel they have to trick people into being criminals?
It's like a grand game of cops and robbers. Once you get the idea that you're wearing the spiffy hat and they're wearing the stripey shirt, anything you do is justified. After all, you're the good guys!
-Jester
Social Engineering with a Badge - Munkay - 03-10-2008
Back when I was in college, we had a former police chief speak to some of the residents. They explained in addition to locking your door, its important to always close your door when you're not in it - even if its just for a moment.
He cited at the time some statistics (which he admitted were a bit fuzzy), which charted 'opportunistic crimes'. These were crimes where usually law abiding citizens see an opportunity and commit a crime they otherwise wouldn't. In the case of the dorms, this was usually taking laptop computers out of rooms that were left out in the open.
This 'sting' operation reeks of the same type of opportunistic crime. Baiting people to commit crimes, and then jumping out of the bushes yelling 'Gotcha!'. The whole thing is an absurd waste of time. People do 'strange' things when they think they're not being watched - just think of the things you do when you have the house to yourself. The fact is, these strange things aren't really all that strange - they're the things we do when we don't need to worry about others, about civilization and civil rules.
Cheers,
Munk
Social Engineering with a Badge - Nystul - 03-10-2008
A lot of crimes surely take place because the opportunity is there. If we relied on the good will of people to stop all crimes without any sort of enforcement, we'd have some serious problems. To me it's kind of a line that isn't clearly defined. For instance, if that particular dorm building were experiencing a string of thefts, I would have no problem with the city or campus police setting up a sting involving an dorm room with an open door and something common yet valuable in sight. The key points being that you are targetting a known criminal element working the specific area, you aren't going out of your way to suggest to people passing by that they should commit the crime, and that there is really no justification for anyone going into someone's home and stealing stuff no matter how tempting and easy you make it. The last question that has to be raised is, is this really the most effective way of catching the criminals and stopping the crime at hand? Or I suppose that should rather be the first question, because if the answer isn't a resounding yes then there is no reason to even consider the ethical issues at hand.
Social Engineering with a Badge - Vandiablo - 03-10-2008
Quote:just think of the things you do when you have the house to yourself.Ack! How did you know about that????
-V
Social Engineering with a Badge - Munkay - 03-11-2008
Quote:Ack! How did you know about that????
-V
I won't tell about what you do, if you don't tell what I do!
:whistling:
Cheers,
Munk
Social Engineering with a Badge - Ashock - 03-12-2008
I bet the local Dunkin Donuts closed and left them with nothing to do.
Yeh, I hate cops.
Social Engineering with a Badge - Rhydderch Hael - 03-12-2008
Quote:I bet the local Dunkin Donuts closed and left them with nothing to do.Well, the local Krispy Kreme shop near the mall did close down in recent times. You're on to something there.
Yeh, I hate cops.
Social Engineering with a Badge - Rhydderch Hael - 04-06-2008
Quick Update: looks like the court decided there was enough to actually charge three of the four arrested.
Interesting.
Quote:...Huidor said she; her mother; her husband, Jesse; and the couple's children had gone to the mall to buy a skateboard for her son.
While Huidor's children and husband were inside a skateboard shop, Huidor and her mother, who had come from San Diego to visit her that day, walked to a water fountain and sat down to rest beside a woman who was rifling through a purse, she said.
When Huidor returned to the fountain after trying to buy her mother a soda from a cookie shop, she said she saw the woman was gone and had left behind a plastic bag and a wallet.
Huidor told her mother to pick up the bag and wallet so they could turn it over to the service desk.
Huidor and her mother went inside the skateboard shop first to get her children and husband. Two men in plainclothes with badges entered the skateboard shop and asked if she picked up a wallet, grabbing her and her mother.
Social Engineering with a Badge - Nystul - 04-07-2008
Not seeing the proof or even suggestion of intent here. It would be interesting to hear the story from the perspective of the arresting officers and find out what key detail is being omitted here. I hope they at least saw the money if they are being charged with grand theft. Remind me to never pick up anything on the ground that could be large enough to have a few hundred dollar bills or a Micky Mantle rookie card tucked in it...