• from a nascent communications technology
  
• to an amazing invention that will usher in a new phase of humanity
  
• to an over-commercialized mess
  
• to a privacy-destroying potential communication dystopia (remains to be seen)
  
• to the terrible echo chambers that have likely made humanity much worse off, segregating us into tiny bubbles
  

(12-24-2018, 05:27 PM)Chadvoluted Wrote: I have to say, specifically speaking as someone who spent their formative years in a deeply pentecostal environment, The conditioning is hard to overcome. I'm still not at the point Taem is, but I don't believe any longer.

But it was a long process of getting to this point. I'm 39. I walked away from the Church at 18, completely frustrated by the double standard upheld by the people in the church.

In my early 20's, as my father (a Pastor), went through his first brain surgery with no success, I decided that I hated God. I believed still, but I believed that he was some sort of petulant being, handing out his grace, love, and "healing" on some whims. I was furious that my father, who had been such a pillar of the churches he worked in his whole life was somehow undeserving of the miraculous healing that I had been conditioned to believe existed.

In 2006, when my father again laid in a hospital, this time with a "Blood Stroke" (Cranial Hemorrhaging from a ruptured aneurysm that exhibited signs of a stroke, and called a Blood Stroke in the world of AVM care) I decided that there was no God. Certainly, with all of the terrible things that happened around the world to innocents, and the further "Job-ing" of my father, it was all the proof that I needed to know that truly, there was no God. (At least not in the Abrahamic Faith sense).

In late 2017, and early this year, as my father yet again laid in a hospital, this time dying from pancreatitis induced organ failure that ended up killing him, I was once again filled with an anger for a being that I believed didn't exist. It was a weird crisis to find myself in. Angry at something that I didn't believe in, yet still angry regardless.

Part of the refuting of ideas that counteract the belief system of Abrahamic faiths comes from the Bible itself, and the thousands of years of perpetuation that those who don't believe, that are pushing a viewpoint that is in contradiction to their beliefs, are not just wrong, but that they are "the enemy" or "controlled by Satan", or some other built in rebuttal to the arguments presented.

It's hard, No one could have convinced me that there was no God, or that the bible was infallible. I had to see it. I had to witness it. I had to be subjected to it. I had to live it. And even then, after I had come through the other side of it all, and was comfortable in my atheist ideologies, I found myself drawn back into that same belief system in crisis. I never prayed for my father to be well again. That part was fine. But as he worsened, lost consciousness, and then we had to remove him from life support, I was, yet again, drawn back to that base instinct of revulsion towards that being that I knew wasn't actually there.

But, even now, when I've lived longer outside of the church, than I did inside the church, I can give you all the rebuttals. I can give you the biblical citations. I can give you all of the standard stock answers for refuting atheism.

At my father's funeral service (it was held in his church), I gave a eulogy completely devoid of faith based... anything. I talked about the simple lesson that my dad taught me, that was (in my mind) actually a refuting of Religion. My dad always made life about the journey, not the destination. But, the people that were there saw it as some sign that I should be a Pastor. That somehow, me talking was some sign from God that I should be giving a message to people about how amazing faith is. It was in the response, that I realized that so often, People of faith want to... "Glom on" to someone who can speak charismatically to the crowd, and make them feel good. I never thought I was charismatic in public speaking, but the response to the Eulogy would say differently.

And when those charismatic people are armed with a significant amount of education in the doctrines, of a religion, coupled with a healthy amount of history (at least in my parent's denomination), they are able to weave together a compelling reason for refuting the evidence, even when it looks to be so overwhelmingly against their position.

Couple that with indoctrination starting VERY young, and the ability to build an insulated community, wherein your friends, families, future spouses, etc... are all of the same hive mind, and it becomes a situation where trying to disarm them, will only make matters worse.

The first girlfriend I ever had that wasn't a part of the church, is the mother of my oldest son. We were teens, had sex, and she ended up pregnant. It wasn't a mystery. It wasn't some shocking situation of "HOW COULD THIS HAPPEN!?" It was, what happens. People have sex. Young people who aren't taught proper sex education, make terrible mistakes, and terrible decisions, and predictably, end up ruining the integrity of the condom they were using, because they weren't really sure what they were doing. The church didn't see it that way. They saw my 17 year old fatherhood as a punishment by God for breaking the rules, and having premarital sex.

Anyway, long personal ramble about insulated pentecostal communities over.

(12-22-2018, 05:06 PM)Jester Wrote: It's really, really hard taking honest stock of your beliefs, especially when they are under question. Double especially when that undermines a larger network of related beliefs. Triple especially when that undermines a larger network of sources, friends, allies, mentors, and so on who taught you those beliefs and whom you rely on to continue to provide you with a safe, reassuring, consistent world view so that you don't think you're crazy.

But that's what we have to do if we want to be thinking people.

On a related note, thanks for running this place all these years, Bolty. It's been very important to my version of the above process. And I really do still miss Pete.

-Jester

(12-20-2018, 06:40 PM)Bolty Wrote: The Oatmeal's been stepping up his game.