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+--- Thread: Devil in the Details - Episode 7 (/thread-13937.html)
Devil in the Details - Episode 7 - Chesspiece_face - 06-04-2012
Episode 7 of the Devil in the Details Podcast. Wherein we welcome a Special Guest and go all-in on Inferno and the Blacksmith.
Mp3 Direct Download can be found Here!
RE: Devil in the Details - Episode 7 - swirly - 06-04-2012
Some thoughts on the Blacksmith. I've settled on three factors that play into his usefulness: AH, Rushing, and Twinking. Might as well talk about each separately.
AH
This one is a bit obvious, but people who use the AH understandably find less use in the Blacksmith. Just from the vast number of people playing and the cheapness of gold costs (from hearing people refer to the cost of AH stuff) it is just easier to buy gear than craft it.
Rushing
In the podcast Roland mentioned making a point of going back into hell so he would be 60 for inferno. This was a huge shock to me since the people I've been playing with have been hitting 60 in Act 2 of Hell. Now we play hardcore and so have good reason to take things slower and thus the difference makes sense. However it does explain some why the Blacksmith would seem less useful. If you hit 60 in Act 2 Hell and have your Blacksmith fully upgraded for hell then he has some crafts that are just huge upgrades for you (shields and shoulders come to mind.) This was the case in Nightmare too. Specifically there was one sword... the Illustrious Raid Sword... that our witchdoctors, wizard, and barbarian all started churning out during Act 4 nightmare because it was an absolutely huge upgrade for us. It requires level 47 though and I'm betting other people were partway through Hell at that level which would push the level range of drops back ahead of it and thus make the Blacksmith seem useless again. So it is all about the level range of drops, of your character, and what the Blacksmith can make at that level. If you aren't rushing then the Blacksmith pulls ahead of drops and can be a huge advantage.
Twinking
Treesh mentioned hardcore people storing old rares so when they die they have back up items for their characters. Myself (and some others) have been purposefully not doing this cause it just trivializes so much of the game. Similarly, for somebody who doesn't use the AH nor pass down old gear, the Blacksmith is hugely overpowering. I had a monk in Act 2 Nightmare that I lost to a disconnect that felt so overpowered just because I let her use up my leftover mats in the blacksmith. It was such a problem that when I remade her I decided to only use mats she actually salvaged herself. Using the Blacksmith just made it to where the old one could steamroll anything without thought.
So to sum up, I agree that if you use the AH or if you keep your level on par with the drop level (calling it Rushing earlier was unfair since it is really keeping pace with the drops where as us HC people let our level get ahead of the gear drops) then you find less use for the Blacksmith. If you play slower and don't use the AH then the Blacksmith becomes very strong and useful. Even for my new Monk it is a key part of her play. Like right now she is 33 in Act 1 Nightmare and I'm purposefully not spending any mats I find so that in 3 levels when the lvl 36 rare fist weapons open up to be crafted she will be able to make at least two (if not 3-4). Those will quite possibly double the damage she does. I actually worry that using the Blacksmith at all makes the game too easy even limiting mats to what is found. It just often feels over-powering if you know how to use it to get key upgrades at certain levels and play such that your level doesn't catch up or get ahead of the content.
Anyway, I just thought I would chime in since my experience with the Blacksmith seemed to be different from those voiced in the podcast.
RE: Devil in the Details - Episode 7 - Treesh - 06-05-2012
I was wondering what sound effect you were going to use when you mentioned you were going to bring one out for the "special guest". I laughed. I should have seen it coming, but I laughed anyway.
RE: Devil in the Details - Episode 7 - Roland - 06-05-2012
(06-04-2012, 08:59 PM)swirly Wrote: If you aren't rushing then the Blacksmith pulls ahead of drops and can be a huge advantage.
I hate to berate this point, but it's a sticking point for me. Your definition of "rushing" simply doesn't jive with my gameplay experience. I played once through the entire the game, clearing every area including all side dungeons, but did no repetitions of areas (I always ended by game by finishing a quest that dropped me in town). I was higher level heading into Nightmare than anyone else I spoke to (I was around 33 or 34, while most were around 31). That is not, by definition, rushing so I don't know why you (and others) keep throwing the term around. I soloed the entire playthrough (with exception of Hell Diablo, which I cleared helping a friend before I had even started the first quest in Act IV - I had just arrived), so I don't know if there are experience gains for grouping. To say that I "rushed" anything, however, is patently false.
I can see how the Blacksmith can be useful for those in HC, where farming gear is more dangerous. I can also see how he would be more useful for any class other than the DH. The simple fact is, however, as a DH the gaps between equipment are too big. A single Crossbow recipe at level 4, and then nothing up through 60 (barring plans)? Asinine. Bows at 23 and 31 are ok, but then you have to wait until 51 and 60 to get your next bows. That's a huge gulf. Hand crossbows go from 16 to 28, to 42, and then 57. That's the best spread I've seen, but I stopped using hand crossbows in Act I or II Normal. The higher DPS of crossbow and quiver (or, as I do now, bow and quiver for the increased attack speed) is just infinitely better, and the added defense isn't really needed until you hit Hell (where that level 42 Hand Crossbow probably isn't going to cut the damage you need for working through Hell).
Besides, as I and others have said the AH is simply a far more efficient way of finding upgrades, in terms of stats and cost. If you have some objection to using the AH that's your prerogative. The game was designed around the idea of using the AH, and I've done so because it's simply flat out better than the BS for 95% of the gameplay (barring some very lucky rolls), and because I simply don't have the time to farm over and over again looking for that one piece of gear I need (especially since I have 4 7-week old kittens who love to interrupt me at my computer).
(06-04-2012, 08:59 PM)swirly Wrote: Treesh mentioned hardcore people storing old rares so when they die they have back up items for their characters. Myself (and some others) have been purposefully not doing this cause it just trivializes so much of the game.
I understand your point, and agree twinking trivializes the game (just as it did in prior installments). However, that doesn't change the fact that the game itself is trivial until you hit about Hell. The increased damage and hitpoints of mobs combines with the 2 (or 3, in the case of Inferno) added modifiers to boss packs (not to mention they seem to ramp up in quantity in the higher difficulties) to make a truly challenging opponent. Outside of my first attempt at the Butcher in Normal, I didn't die once until sometime in Hell. Normal is a cakewalk even without twinking, and Nightmare is only slightly more challenging - and can still be trivial with good enough drops, or crafts.
(06-04-2012, 08:59 PM)swirly Wrote: So to sum up, I agree that if you use the AH or if you keep your level on par with the drop level (calling it Rushing earlier was unfair since it is really keeping pace with the drops where as us HC people let our level get ahead of the gear drops) then you find less use for the Blacksmith.
Thank you.
(06-04-2012, 08:59 PM)swirly Wrote: If you play slower and don't use the AH then the Blacksmith becomes very strong and useful.
I think the Blacksmith has a lot of room for improvement, but I love the concept and I do hope he finds use outside of max level (for both character and artisan). I love (good) crafting systems, so I was very excited about the Blacksmith. Unfortunately, he was completely useless to me until I hit Inferno (and even then it's more the allure of crafting AH gold farming equipment than anything usable). I hope they tweak him to make him better (he could definitely use some more recipes scattered throughout), as it is a great idea, and I love the concept of being able to take useless gear, break it down into materials, and then have a chance at gambling something that actually is useful.
(06-04-2012, 08:59 PM)swirly Wrote: Anyway, I just thought I would chime in since my experience with the Blacksmith seemed to be different from those voiced in the podcast.
I'm glad to hear from someone else's perspective. I always suspected HC characters would find more use out of him than SC. I just wish he was more usable throughout the character's life. I know there's a balance to find between drops and crafts so that the market isn't completely flooded (anymore than it already is). I just don't feel they've struck that balance yet. They've got a long way to go with this game, though (in terms of time) so I have some faith it will be addressed in the future.
RE: Devil in the Details - Episode 7 - Elric of Grans - 06-05-2012
(06-05-2012, 03:52 AM)Roland Wrote: (not to mention they seem to ramp up in quantity in the higher difficulties)
I recall something where Blizzard stated each difficulty adds new Elite spawn points over the last, so Inferno does have more Elites than Hell, which has more than Nightmare, which has more than Normal.
RE: Devil in the Details - Episode 7 - FoxBat - 06-05-2012
(06-05-2012, 03:52 AM)Roland Wrote: I hate to berate this point, but it's a sticking point for me. Your definition of "rushing" simply doesn't jive with my gameplay experience.
This was roughly my experience as well. It is arguable that the definition of "rushing" might be different in the Hardcore context, but to me Ironman was pretty much opposite in spirit to rushing/skipping, so I'm not so happy about seeing semantics slide in that direction. If you compare the player and monster/item levels you would be hard pressed to call that leveling rate "rushing" as well; req 60 items don't drop in A2 hell.
And yes, it's also my experience that the blacksmith is pretty much junk on your first playthrough doing a one-time full-clear. I'll have to see how he does for leveling a fresh character now; however, part of the effect the HC guys were seeing is again, being able to make higher ilvl items than could even drop for the regions they were playing in. Even Blizzard described the blacksmith as a way to cover any weak spots in your drop upgrades rather than a primary gear source. (Albeit inferno recipes are supposedly a different story.)
RE: Devil in the Details - Episode 7 - swirly - 06-05-2012
Let me start by repeating what I said in my other post. That referring to it as rushing is unfair due to the character keeping the same level as the item drops. It is simply the wrong word for it, but I can't think of a better one and so it gets used. It is a bit of an inherent problem with labeling. Labeling is a form of generalization and we all know generalization is bad. Yet labeling does help cut down on word count which a poster like myself really needs sometimes. Alas no matter what label we would settle on there would be somebody who found it to be the wrong one and insulting to them. That is the nature of the beast. So I shall use the label we have and call it rushing even though I do agree it is not the correct one for it.
I've been giving it some thought as to why it feels like rushing to me. What I have decided is that one full clear of all zones is simply counter to my feel for how a Diablo game should be played. My feeling is that half the point of a Diablo game is the requirement to replay zones in the effort of getting better gear. Now I freely grant that this is only my feeling for it. It may run counter to other players, the designers themselves, and every other being in existence. I mean to give no weight to it beyond it being how I solely feel.
That said, I do feel a Diablo game is such that a person should have to replay areas for gear before advancing on to more difficult areas. So thus the play style of clearing everything once and then moving on involves progressing at a pace faster than I feel a Diablo game should be played at. It runs counter to my preconceived notions (also always a bad thing btw) and so thus feels like rushing.
To sum up, I'm using a preconceived notion (a bad internal trait) to refer to something by a label (a bad external trait) and basing an argument upon that. So I freely admit I'm standing on shaky ground with all of this. That said, we are talking about feeling... which is emotion... and thus doesn't generally follow logical nor reasonable paths. So I end up with the statement that playing every single zone one time only before moving on feels like rushing to me.