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+--- Thread: Cataclysm NDA Lifted! Beta Begins! Exclamation points abused! (/thread-12328.html)
Cataclysm NDA Lifted! Beta Begins! Exclamation points abused! - Tal - 07-01-2010
Check it out on MMO-Champion. My initial thoughts?
I want more talent points. :p
RE: Cataclysm NDA Lifted! Beta Begins! Exclamation points abused! - shoju - 07-01-2010
My initial thoughts are that the gear inflation / reset is a tad overdone.
I know that all current gear will be getting reworked in 4.0, but the ilvl jump of nearly 100 from top tier t10 to lvl85 starter epics leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
I really like the maps, the zones, the nifty cool stuff like that, but the gear inflation is more than the reset from vanilla to tbc at this point.
Editing some nifty things I just found:
Engineering GEMS!!!!!!!!!!!!
These, could be oh so very cool, and possibly a very nice way for an engineering paladin tank to really crank up the threat, or the avoidance (yawn).
RE: Cataclysm NDA Lifted! Beta Begins! Exclamation points abused! - Mavfin - 07-01-2010
(07-01-2010, 04:30 PM)shoju Wrote: My initial thoughts are that the gear inflation / reset is a tad overdone.
I know that all current gear will be getting reworked in 4.0, but the ilvl jump of nearly 100 from top tier t10 to lvl85 starter epics leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Why? Are you really that attached to your current gear?
I've been saying a big reset was coming for months. It's the only way I could see where they could handle having decent quest leveling for both:
1) people in 251-277
2) people at 78 in Northrend quest greens.
From a thread elsewhere, it's said that level 78 mobs in Hyjal have about 12600 health, same as many in Icecrown. But, by level 81, quest mobs are 30K+, so yeah, gear reset.
Just too big an arc to cover any other way. Also, they want to get you in more stam gear, no matter what your class, and get you used to the new way they want to do things.
I personally don't care about putting my epics away or selling them. I'll get more later, after all. I got them to do a job, and now I'm getting items for a new job. <shrug>
Also, people doing Naxx in T6 just felt wrong to me, so I'm happy they're not going that way this time.
RE: Cataclysm NDA Lifted! Beta Begins! Exclamation points abused! - shoju - 07-01-2010
I have a problem with lvl78 blues from dungeons coming out with better stats than the gear I have yes.
I had a jolly good time questing on Sunetra in my t5 gear, and replacing the oddball piece from a dungeon or whatever along the way. I then had just as much of a jolly good time leveling my hunter, mage, death knight, and priest in far lesser gear, and the gear reset wasn't massive.
I'm not saying I expect to walk into t11 with my t10, but replacing gear from minute 1 isn't very enjoyable to me.
And really, the guilds that went in and trounced t7 with t6 gear? how many did that? How many people had the skill to not replace more than 3 pieces and crush a zone like that? By the time we were raiding I only had 4 pieces left over from TBC.
My t5 shoulders (because TBC gear with multiple sockets is OP for dpsers in wrath gems)
My crafted T5 belt (because TBC gear with multiple sockets is OP for dpsers in wrath gems)
My Cloak (because there are so few cloaks with hit, and it capped me)
Berserker's Call
RE: Cataclysm NDA Lifted! Beta Begins! Exclamation points abused! - TheDragoon - 07-01-2010
(07-01-2010, 05:16 PM)Mavfin Wrote: Why? Are you really that attached to your current gear?No reason for this personal attack.
On topic, I agree with Shoju that this seems a bit extreme. Things could get reset perfectly well without jumping from ~300 dps 2-handers to 650 dps 2-handers. The Classic-to-TBC and TBC-to-WotLK approaches seemed a good balance, to me, that if you had a ton of end-game TBC gear then you had a pretty good set of gear for the first 5 levels or so. Now it seems Blizzard has changed that approach and the end-game WotLK gear is being set up to be useless right out of the box (or close to). I guess they want to force all characters (be they new characters that go to Cataclysm areas at 78 in Northrend quest items or WotLK end-game raiders) to have the same difficulty when questing in the new areas. But even then, it seems a bit extreme to me.
In the end, it doesn't really matter other than this approach seems to make the "big numbers get ridiculously big" a more extreme than seems particularly necessary.
RE: Cataclysm NDA Lifted! Beta Begins! Exclamation points abused! - NiteFox - 07-01-2010
I'm oddly psyched about the Hunter changes; Stealth tauren! Aimed Shot being a friggin' opening nuke again and usable by said stealth tauren!! Most stings being converted to venoms and stackable with Serpent Sting!!! And... Aspect of the Fox for focus regen and friggin' auto shots on the goddamn move!!!!
And then the cynic in me will remember that it'll only take one forum thread of Rogue or Warrior whining to have all that removed. Bah.
RE: Cataclysm NDA Lifted! Beta Begins! Exclamation points abused! - Mavfin - 07-01-2010
(07-01-2010, 05:40 PM)TheDragoon Wrote:(07-01-2010, 05:16 PM)Mavfin Wrote: Why? Are you really that attached to your current gear?No reason for this personal attack.
Not a personal attack at all.
I'm just not that attached to gear other than as tools for the job at hand. Once I step into Cataclysm, I have no problem dropping my LK tools for Cata tools. I like to have the right tools for the job when I'm doing it, but when it's done with, they're just tools.
i.e. I don't understand being so attached to what will be 'old gear' once Cata is out.
<shrug> Difference of opinion is not a personal attack.
(If you have a problem with something I've posted somewhere out of sight, TD, you know where my PM box is. Please keep it out of this thread.)
RE: Cataclysm NDA Lifted! Beta Begins! Exclamation points abused! - TheDragoon - 07-01-2010
(07-01-2010, 06:27 PM)Mavfin Wrote: <shrug> Difference of opinion is not a personal attack.It's not, but when stated in an accusatory way (which I interpreted that to be) then it certainly can be made to be one.
At any rate you say it's not and attack and I agree about not clogging this thread, so if we have further rebuttals, I suggest we take it to PM.
RE: Cataclysm NDA Lifted! Beta Begins! Exclamation points abused! - shoju - 07-01-2010
I guess I don't see it as a 'easy' reset if the guys in 277 gear, and the guys in 187 blues are both replacing their gear in the first zone.
Your first zones are either going to be steamrolls for both of them, where you 1 shot the mobs and get insane gear to roll the rest of that zone, so that you can move to the next zone and not die (because these mobs will be beefy), or the guy in 277 gear is going to roll the zone, and get OP gear, while the guy in 187 blues (which are better than northrend questing gear) is crying because he is being eaten alive by the mobs while trying to get the OP gear so that he doesn't die and is on equal footing with the guy in 277's who is experiencing the TBC reset in an even more hardcore fashion.
Because of the gear differential a hard reset like this is going to be more punitive on the people who are leveling up in leveling gear than the people who are in raid gear, or there will be no challenge at for either of them.
The gear that they show up in is just too different.
I'm not saying that I want to raid in my t10, or even ding 85 in it. But I don't think that you should be replacing your ICC/RS gear with req78 blues from dungeons and quest rewards either.
Theoretically, if the tank gear is that big of a reset, you will find that later on, new tanks leveling up are going to get beaten down when they get to the second 'level' of dungeons on their way up, because they are tanking in northrend gear because the other pieces didn't drop.
I have to think that overall the numbers that we are seeing in the beta are going to get severely toned down, or the 4.0 restatting of everything is going to be massive.
RE: Cataclysm NDA Lifted! Beta Begins! Exclamation points abused! - Lissa - 07-01-2010
(07-01-2010, 05:16 PM)Mavfin Wrote:(07-01-2010, 04:30 PM)shoju Wrote: My initial thoughts are that the gear inflation / reset is a tad overdone.
I know that all current gear will be getting reworked in 4.0, but the ilvl jump of nearly 100 from top tier t10 to lvl85 starter epics leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Why? Are you really that attached to your current gear?
I've been saying a big reset was coming for months. It's the only way I could see where they could handle having decent quest leveling for both:
1) people in 251-277
2) people at 78 in Northrend quest greens.
From a thread elsewhere, it's said that level 78 mobs in Hyjal have about 12600 health, same as many in Icecrown. But, by level 81, quest mobs are 30K+, so yeah, gear reset.
Just too big an arc to cover any other way. Also, they want to get you in more stam gear, no matter what your class, and get you used to the new way they want to do things.
I personally don't care about putting my epics away or selling them. I'll get more later, after all. I got them to do a job, and now I'm getting items for a new job. <shrug>
Also, people doing Naxx in T6 just felt wrong to me, so I'm happy they're not going that way this time.
Some people keep gear around because it took a lot of work and it was memorable. How many Priests that have their Benediction/Anathema still have it in their vaults (guarentee it's a lot)? How many Hunters that made Rhok'delar/Lok'lelar (guarentee it's a lot)? How many folks that made Thunderfury still have it in their vault (guarentee it's a lot)?
Some gear is memorable and it is why people keep it.
Likewise, why shouldn't the top tier gear be just as usable at the start of the next expansion? Naxx (Tier 3 gear) was just as effective as the blues and purples people got in the heroic dungeons of tBC. Hyjal/BT/Sunwell gear was just as good as the blues and purples people got in heroic dungeons in WotLK. So why the huge jump going from ICC/RS gear to the blues and purples of the heroic dungeons of Cata?
RE: Cataclysm NDA Lifted! Beta Begins! Exclamation points abused! - Mavfin - 07-01-2010
(07-01-2010, 07:07 PM)shoju Wrote: the 4.0 restatting of everything is going to be massive.
That's what's going to happen. They're not going to back off their stam numbers now.
ilvl 359 crafted epic plate chests, DPS and tank both, have 512 stam on them.
(equiv to 200 starter epics in LK)
(07-01-2010, 07:14 PM)Lissa Wrote: Some gear is memorable and it is why people keep it.
Sure. I have a few pieces in my bank. But it's in my bank for memories. I'm not expecting to wear it into the next expansion very far. Its time has passed.
New times, new tools. I guess I like getting new gear for a new expansion, but I don't get offended by replacing old epics with new greens/blues. To each his own, I guess. To me it's about the experience, not all about the gear. The gear starts to matter when you start raiding again, and need X level to progress.
RE: Cataclysm NDA Lifted! Beta Begins! Exclamation points abused! - TheDragoon - 07-01-2010
(07-01-2010, 07:07 PM)shoju Wrote: Your first zones are either going to be steamrolls for both of them, where you 1 shot the mobs and get insane gear to roll the rest of that zone, so that you can move to the next zone and not die (because these mobs will be beefy) ...This is how I felt the Classic -> TBC and TBC -> WotLK transition went for the level 58/68 quest green characters. Those intro quests are all about getting those quest greens replaced with new and improved, TBC/WotLK quest greens.
(07-01-2010, 07:07 PM)shoju Wrote: or the guy in 277 gear is going to roll the zoneI'm not sure that I ever really did play through the TBC -> WotLK transition with a character that had end-game gearing from TBC (because the very geared characters I had swapped specs and had to basically start over again) but the Classic -> TBC transition for an end-game character was certainly different if you had end-game epic items.
I know my character that had geared up in AQ40/Naxx before TBC basically went through most of Outland using much of the best gear (replacing some of the less-great gear midway through).
That balance between the quest characters feeling like they gear up at a massive rate in the first zone and the very-well-geared characters that could use their gear through part/most of the new areas felt like Blizzard had hit the sweet spot. That's why I think it's somewhat surprising that it sounds like the model might be changing. Is the difference between quest geared and end-game geared characters that different now?
(07-01-2010, 07:16 PM)Mavfin Wrote: To me it's about the experience, not all about the gear.I think the thing the rankles with some people is that it feels strange from a quasi-roleplaying standpoint to enter a new zone using equipment wrenched from the hands of of the baddest creature in the WotLK universe only to squash a bug that drops not-quite-as-clown-suit-as-it-used-to-be armor which blows your awesome stuff out of the water. As I noted above it seemed, to me, that Blizzard had hit a sweet spot between making old gear useful and catching up the quest geared new characters so it's surprising to see it change.
RE: Cataclysm NDA Lifted! Beta Begins! Exclamation points abused! - Mavfin - 07-01-2010
(07-01-2010, 07:21 PM)TheDragoon Wrote: Is the difference between quest geared and end-game geared characters that different now?
Actually, I think that's exactly the point.
Vanilla--> TBC, people were wearing from ~ilvl 60 greens to ~ilvl 86-92 (T3), so about a 30 ilvl range.
TBC --> WotLK, people were wearing from ilvl ~95 greens to ~165ish epics, so about a 65 ilvl range.
WotLK --> Cata, people are wearing from a mix of 138-187 (new 78), to epiced out in 251-284, so roughly 100 or more ilvl range.
So, you see, it gets harder to balance the starting experience for everyone as you go up. Add into that the fact that they want to change the whole combat setup for players, in the stam vs damage setup. That and the above is why I've been expecting a steep gear reset for months.
Cata will actually end up with a smaller spread than LK produced, since they did away with the 10/25 ilvl split for Cataclysm, and I would expect that Heroic T11 will equal non-heroic T12, or maybe a half-tier between them only.
RE: Cataclysm NDA Lifted! Beta Begins! Exclamation points abused! - shoju - 07-01-2010
Sunetra was for the most part a t5 geared ret paladin with a couple of odd pieces from BT (cloak, ring, maybe one other thing), and while I never felt in danger of dying in Borean tundra, I had irritations starting in dragonblight, and didn't feel incredibly over the top after that point.
I liked the balance of leveling in wrath. My weak pieces were replaced quickly, my good pieces stuck around, and I had a few pieces (that were arguably fantastic pieces at 70) that made it into naxx, and a couple of those were just because I was a little poor (no DMC:G off the bat) or had bad RNG in the heroics.
When I leveled my mage who had 2 epic pieces of loot at wrath launch (shoulders from the invasion and the badge wand) I didn't feel a lot different. Sure, Borean Tundra took a little longer, but not much, and I still had a piece of TBC gear when I hit 80 (that wand with its socket was AWESOME).
Both characters leveled fine. so my mage took a little longer. Big deal, it was hardly noticable. So I did a little less DPS in a dungeon. Big deal, it was a leveling dungeon.
I remember when I leveled my hunter, he was in heirlooms and tbc socketable gear when he hit northrend. The big difference between him and the mage, was that his gear was infinitely better because I had more socketable gear. He was probably the fastest to 80, aided by my knowledge of northrend, and Wrath gems in TBC gear.
I think that this is looking like a massive amount of overkill. I don't think that it needs to be this steep of a reset to get to the point where they don't want the next ensidia facerolling their content in <60hours.
RE: Cataclysm NDA Lifted! Beta Begins! Exclamation points abused! - TheDragoon - 07-01-2010
I'm not sure that the numeric ilvl difference is an accurate measure since the ilvl numbers of gear keeps going up. In Classic there was a HUGE difference between ilvl 60 greens and ilvl 90 epics.
Also, even if the spread is bigger now, the ilvl could also be set compared to the high-end ilvls to provide the same sort of questing progression as seen in TBC and WotLK. For example, quest gear could be designed to provide the following sort of progression in Cataclysm. Note that I have used the phrase "epic-equivalent XXX" below. This is meant to account for the fact that Blizzard has said they'd like to see more to distinguish greens from blues from epics while still comparing the overall power of an item to the overall power of epics in WotLK.
This is how I would have done it, though Blizzard appears to have taken a different approach:
Level 78 - ilvl 238 epic-equivalent greens from quests, ilvl 251 epic-equivalent blues from dungeons
Level 79 - ilvl 245 epic-equivalent greens from quests, ilvl 258 epic-equivalent blues from dungeons
Level 80 - ilvl 252 epic-equivalent greens from quests, ilvl 265 epic-equivalent blues from dungeons
This progression would catch the quest-green people up to ilvl 245 gear (which is the random heroic badge gear available in end-game WotLK) which is widely available at end-game WotLK by level 79. This progression essentially builds on the 5-man progression already built into the WotLK end-game 5-mans and providing a modest incentive to jump directly into the new 5-mans. As leveling up, I set the ilvl to increase 7 ilvls per level so that it would be equivalent to one tier of raiding gear per two levels. I also set each tier of progression (quests -> 5-mans -> heroic 5-mans -> raids) to be 13 ilvl different than the previous, as done in end-game WotLK 5-mans.
Level 81 - ilvl 259 epic-equivalent greens from quests, ilvl 272 epic-equivalent blues from dungeons
Level 82 - ilvl 264 epic-equivalent greens from quests, ilvl 279 epic-equivalent blues from dungeons
Level 83 - ilvl 273 epic-equivalent greens from quests, ilvl 286 epic-equivalent blues from dungeons
Level 84 - ilvl 280 epic-equivalent greens from quests, ilvl 293 epic-equivalent blues from dungeons
Level 85 - ilvl 287 epic-equivalent greens from quests, ilvl 300 epic-equivalent blues from dungeons, ilvl 313 epic-equivalent blues from heroic dungeons, ilvl 326 epics from the starter Cataclysm raids
Overall, this would allow ICC-25 (normal) raiders to have gear equivalent to Level 82 quest rewards or 5-man dungeons done at level 80. ICC-25 (heroic) raiders would have gear equivalent to level ~84 questing or Level 83 5-man dungeons. All of the gear gets overshadowed by the time you reach the level 85 5-mans, heroics and raids (though you might be able to use some of that gear if you haven't found a good replacement, yet). That seems like a pretty decent progression but without the massive ilvl bloat that appears it is going to occur to yield ilvl 359 epics to start the end-game.
RE: Cataclysm NDA Lifted! Beta Begins! Exclamation points abused! - Mavfin - 07-01-2010
(07-01-2010, 08:56 PM)TheDragoon Wrote: Overall, this would allow ICC-25 (normal) raiders to have gear equivalent to Level 82 quest rewards or 5-man dungeons done at level 80. ICC-25 (heroic) raiders would have gear equivalent to level ~84 questing or Level 83 5-man dungeons. All of the gear gets overshadowed by the time you reach the level 85 5-mans, heroics and raids (though you might be able to use some of that gear if you haven't found a good replacement, yet). That seems like a pretty decent progression but without the massive ilvl bloat that appears it is going to occur to yield ilvl 359 epics to start the end-game.
I think Blizzard actually wants everyone out of the old gear as soon as they can because of the changes they're making, and I'm sure they're not going to change it now so that 25-man raiders can keep their epics a bit longer.
RE: Cataclysm NDA Lifted! Beta Begins! Exclamation points abused! - Taelas - 07-02-2010
(07-01-2010, 08:56 PM)TheDragoon Wrote: I'm not sure that the numeric ilvl difference is an accurate measure since the ilvl numbers of gear keeps going up. In Classic there was a HUGE difference between ilvl 60 greens and ilvl 90 epics.Not really, no. A level (and ilevel) 60 2-hand mace had 22 strength, 10 agility, and 46.2 DPS (Skullcracking Mace). Might of Menethil, an ilevel 89 2-hand mace had 20 strength, 46 stamina, and 28 crit strike rating, and 95.3 DPS. The difference seemed a lot bigger because the spread was so much smaller.
And yes, the ilevel difference is so big this time around because Blizzard wants to move health pools up so high that tanks won't be hit quite so hard, relatively. The easiest way to accomplish that without weighting stamina differently (which would have other consequences) is to increase the ilevel.
RE: Cataclysm NDA Lifted! Beta Begins! Exclamation points abused! - shoju - 07-02-2010
Guild Perks are up and listed on WoW.com.
Wow. Those perks are going to ensure that I put Shoju back in guild, and turn some worthless lacky who doesn't craft anything as my personal bank manager.
RE: Cataclysm NDA Lifted! Beta Begins! Exclamation points abused! - Mavfin - 07-02-2010
(07-02-2010, 09:38 AM)Alliera Wrote: And yes, the ilevel difference is so big this time around because Blizzard wants to move health pools up so high that tanks won't be hit quite so hard, relatively. The easiest way to accomplish that without weighting stamina differently (which would have other consequences) is to increase the ilevel.
Here's a blue comment on exactly the subject most of this thread has been on, the jump in ilevel from LK to Cata, from Zarhym:
Since we're only raising the level cap to 85 in Cataclysm, one of the goals is to pack as much content and gameplay as possible into the new 78-85 zones and dungeons. We don't want the leveling experience from 80-85 to feel as if it's only half of the content we've provided in the last two expansions. So, with that comes more substantial scaling of items and character power with each level gained. A level-82 character should feel significantly more powerful than a level-80 character, for example. There are some epic and legendary items from Wrath of the Lich King raid content which may take a while to replace, but chances are most of your gear will be replaced by the time you start running level-85 normal 5-player dungeons.
The first rule of thumb, as usual, is that you'll probably be focused on the stats most important to your class. If you're, say, an Unholy death knight, you probably won't be replacing items until the strength on the new gear outweighs the strength on what is currently equipped, even with gems and enchants considered. By the time this occurs you'll also likely be incorporating the benefits of Mastery rating.
One thing people have pointed out: If you have 264-277 armor, putting new gems/enchants on it will let you keep it longer, especially the 3-slot pieces.
Gem stats have changed for Cata, however, and Satorri has a primer here.
RE: Cataclysm NDA Lifted! Beta Begins! Exclamation points abused! - Taelas - 07-15-2010
31-point talents up on http://cata.wowhead.com/talent