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Bioware Goes To Hell. - Roland - 02-16-2003
Edit:
Additional links -
http://nwn.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.ht...&forum=42&sp=15
http://nwn.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.ht...&forum=42&sp=30
Link:
http://www.landsoflore.org/article.php?sid...order=0&thold=0
Summary:
"Some people got up in arms over the advertising in the new Patch for NWN. This latest patch has a big ad for their update on the main splash screen. Somebody made mention of it on the forums and this is what Derek French From Bioware had to say......
'You are welcome! I know its quite shocking to find that we actually make more games that just the original Neverwinter Nights and that we aren't going to just shut down the company after the release of NWN. Its because of that we want to make you aware of the other upcoming titles, because, quite frankly, we want to stay in business and keep making games for our fans. The SoU expansion is going to be fantastic and KotOR is just amazing. Hmmmmm. Maybe we should start selling X10 systems, too? Nah, we will just still with making computer RPGs.
________________
Derek French
Producer, Live Team
Neverwinter Nights
http://www.neverwinternights.com/'
I am not sure what I think of advertising in the game, but so long as it is only on the splash screen I do not blame them for wanting to try and sell updates. Mind you another player made comment on the forums that he did not like seeing advertising on his game, and this was the response.
'Um, its not your launcher. Its ours. We were just giving you a preview of what the XP1 launcher will look like. Showing you new art. That was the intent.Guess we better stop releasing screenshots and content on the community site, too, because its offensive, right?
_________________
Derek French
Producer, Live Team
Neverwinter Nights
http://www.neverwinternights.com/'
Share your views and opinions. Leave Comments."
Now tell me, does this REEK of bad PR, or is it just me? I swear, gaming companies are going to Hell more and more. And you know what? It's not because of the producers anymore. It's pure asshole-ish elitism, straight from the development teams.
Bioware Goes To Hell. - WarBlade - 02-16-2003
I remember when I bought either WarCraft 2 or its expansion, their was a little postcard sized page in the box for an upcoming ittle - not even a Blizzard product. And you what? I actually bought the game when it was finally released and enjoyed it too. (Lords of the Realm II)
Advertising can work when done right. I think you're probably right about advertising on the splash screen perhaps being a little too intrusive, but then it needs to be somewhere where it can be seen.
Something else I've seen done before (rather infrequently), is to have an option in the intial splash screen below the usual "Install product x", "Run product x" buttons is something along the lines of "Install product y Demo". I like this idea. An example would be a button on the D2 expansion splash screen saying "Install WarCraft III demo". ;)
Advertising can work if done right.
Bioware Goes To Hell. - Roland - 02-16-2003
WarBlade,Feb 16 2003, 01:30 AM Wrote:I remember when I bought either WarCraft 2 or its expansion, their was a little postcard sized page in the box for an upcoming ittle - not even a Blizzard product. And you what? I actually bought the game when it was finally released and enjoyed it too. (Lords of the Realm II)If you read my post in the link, you'd know that I (probably; I haven't updated yet, so I can't be certain) am not bothered by the advertising. It's the sheer "up yours" attitude of the NWN Development Team that I take issue with. Or did you miss their horrendously rude comments?
Advertising can work when done right. I think you're probably right about advertising on the splash screen perhaps being a little too intrusive, but then it needs to be somewhere where it can be seen.
Something else I've seen done before (rather infrequently), is to have an option in the intial splash screen below the usual "Install product x", "Run product x" buttons is something along the lines of "Install product y Demo". I like this idea. An example would be a button on the D2 expansion splash screen saying "Install WarCraft III demo". ;)
Advertising can work if done right.
Bioware Goes To Hell. - The Luminaire - 02-16-2003
I dunno, I kinda agree with the Dev guy. It is their software, and its well within their rights to put ads for an upcoming game in there.
I think he had the exact additude he should have with people like that. Hyper-sensitive people who dont like it if its not exactly how *they* want it. Sounds alot like the fight between alot of people and Blizzard and its stance on PvP.
Dont like it, dont play it. Just my $0.02.
Bioware Goes To Hell. - Roland - 02-16-2003
The Luminaire,Feb 16 2003, 01:58 AM Wrote:Dont like it, dont play it. Just my $0.02.I don't. It's kind of hard for me to do anything about it now, since I already own the game. But for the future? I think I'll be thinking long and hard before I buy another Bioware product.
Bioware Goes To Hell. - The Luminaire - 02-16-2003
Wasnt nessecarily putting that towards you, more as a summary of what the Bioware dude was stating.
But, just because some people dont like BW's position on this, doesnt impair their ability to make great games.
Bioware Goes To Hell. - Jarulf - 02-16-2003
The Luminaire,Feb 16 2003, 07:58 AM Wrote:I dunno, I kinda agree with the Dev guy. It is their software, and its well within their rights to put ads for an upcoming game in there. If I am not mistaken this was happinging with a PATCH. It was not the original game that had adds that people complained about. They complain that when their games had errors and the maker fixed it they also changed (and in this case added) adds. Imagine having your car in for service at Ford to fix something and when it returns it is full of adds for their next car and if you are really unlucky they have changed removed and added stuff to the car. Why should you NOT be upset? I would.
I think he had the exact additude he should have with people like that. Hyper-sensitive people who dont like it if its not exactly how *they* want it. Sounds alot like the fight between alot of people and Blizzard and its stance on PvP.
Dont like it, dont play it. Just my $0.02.
Bioware Goes To Hell. - Roland - 02-16-2003
Jarulf,Feb 16 2003, 05:25 AM Wrote:If I am not mistaken this was happinging with a PATCH. It was not the original game that had adds that people complained about. They complain that when their games had errors and the maker fixed it they also changed (and in this case added) adds.Yes. This issue arose with the latest NWN patch, patch 1.28. What it essentially did was alter the splash screen upon the startup of NWN. You know, the one where it has the buttons for "Play", "Toolset", "Update", etc. AFAIK, there are no ads in-game, but I can't speak from experience. I HAVE updated to 1.28, and I have seen the new ad. And, not surprisingly, Luminaire is right: it's a non-issue.
My concern is not the ads, but rather the way certain people on the development team have responded to criticism about the ads. Let's face it: Bioware has been under severe scrutiny (to the same level of Blizzard, if you can believe it) ever since NWN's release; it's no surprise that tempers may be running short in general, let alone when a new complaint arises. However, that is NO excuse for the comments of one Derek French, NWN Developer. Regardless of anything else, his actions, despite how they may not speak for the whole development team in reality, DO speak for the team, and the entirety of Bioware in the eyes of the public. He shows HORRIBLE form and personal skills with his response, and indeed it paints a very large black mark on Bioware.
I'm going to continue to follow this issue to see what develops. I'm interested to see how Bioware handles this, if they handle it at all. Chances are, if they do in fact take a stab at it, it'll be minor. Somehow I doubt they'll bother. But, we shall see. For a company who has been so into their community ever since day one, this is a SERIOUS turnaround compared to their usual attitude. It could mark a very significant, and dour, change for Bioware. Then again, it could be nothing. Here's hoping for the latter.
Bioware Goes To Hell. - Taeme - 02-16-2003
Quote:I don't. It's kind of hard for me to do anything about it now, since I already own the game. But for the future? I think I'll be thinking long and hard before I buy another Bioware product.
Blah blah blah.
Gamers are so full of it. Right. You'll think long and hard over it. No, no you won't. Game looks good, you'll buy it. You love your drama, lad, but it sure doesn't mean much.
As for the advertising and the forum posts? Get used to it. Developers have long run out of civility because the people who post on their forums are abusive, rude, stupid and annoying know-it-alls. The guy's attitude sums it up perfectly, that people somehow expect them to become completely detached from how the real world works.
Companies have to make money.
Bioware Goes To Hell. - Roland - 02-16-2003
You know everything. My bad.
Please, don't ever tell me what I will and will not do. It will only get you a kick in the teeth.
Bioware Goes To Hell. - Taeme - 02-16-2003
Quote:Please, don't ever tell me what I will and will not do. It will only get you a kick in the teeth.
Threats of violence are an EXCELLENT way to demonstrate maturity and intelligence, let me tell you!
Were or were you not one of the cheerleaders who has said before "I won't buy this because this" and then runs out on release date and buys it? Dramatic nonsense is just that.
Bioware Goes To Hell. - Kevin - 02-16-2003
I actually didn't have a big problem with the original comments by Derek when I first read Roland's post. It was a little harsh, but it didn't bug me that much. When I read the first linked thread, and saw the initial attitude he was responding to, and the the use of emoticons in his post I had even less issue with his comments. You do have to consider that Mr. French also gave instructions on how to completely bypass this launcher at game start up.
The 2nd link shows a lot of explanation from Derek, and then the quote that Roland posted. Of course this was in response to someone who obviously doesn't read EULA's calling it my launcher, which is why Derek said, umm no, it isn't your launcher. It was also kind of a tongue in cheek post by Derek as evidenced by the emoticons.
Basically by posting the statements like this, they are taken out of context. Like pretty much everything else in the world, if you take it out of context it can sound much different than it was intended to. There is a reason why libel protection extends to written text being taken out of context. Not that I think Roland libeled Derek in this case, but it can be done, which is why context is important.
My final comment is that, if this bothers you, you must get in huge fits about some of the posts that Geoff Frazier makes. GF uses much worse language and can be much harsher than this. I think he has toned down now, but GF has flat out called people words that are censored on some boards. He has displayed a much more flippant attitude than this in the past. This has been seen on the Blizzard and other forums (including the older versions of the Lounge). When left in context, must people didn't take much issues with GF's comments, but when taken out of context they were considered extremely inflammatory. So, I really hope you have the same problem with Blizzard that you now seem to have with BioWare.
Bioware Goes To Hell. - The Luminaire - 02-16-2003
nt
Bioware Goes To Hell. - FoxBat - 02-16-2003
Taeme,Feb 16 2003, 07:35 AM Wrote:Gamers are so full of it. Right. You'll think long and hard over it. No, no you won't. Game looks good, you'll buy it. You love your drama, lad, but it sure doesn't mean much.Still haven't bought war3 here.
I admit to downloading the demo, but that's it.
Bioware Goes To Hell. - Zarathustra - 02-16-2003
I have to say that I, too, feel it to be a non-issue. Eh, so there's an advertisement on the splash screen. I can deal with that. Every company wants to sell products, and they've not alterred the game itself to place these ads.
Now, if kobolds were running around with signs that read "Buy Shadows of Undretide!" while you're trying to hack them down....that'd be a different story.
Bioware Goes To Hell. - FoxBat - 02-16-2003
Gnollguy,Feb 16 2003, 11:01 AM Wrote:When left in context, must people didn't take much issues with GF's comments, but when taken out of context they were considered extremely inflammatory.Speak for yourself, I find him inflammatory either way. :P
Bioware Goes To Hell. - Roland - 02-16-2003
Geoff Frazier is not, in any way, on the development team of any Blizzard title. He's a webmaster. Nothing more.
And, in answer to your question, yes, I do have the same problem with Geoff Frazier of Blizzard as I do with Derek French of Bioware. However, as I said above, Geoff Frazier is NOT part of making Blizzard games.
Regarding his comments at the forum, I must admit that after reading them their, they did not sound as harsh. Even so, that is no excuse for his flippant attitude. Likewise, Geoff Frazier has no right to speak the way he does. Personally, I find him to be an arrogant prick at times, not worthy of a second thought. The fact that Blizzard allows his behavoir to continue in such a manner is truly poor conduct, especially since he seems to be the self-appointed PR man. Then again, Blizzard is FULL of bad PR (BNetD, for instance). However, since none of the bad PR stems directly from the developers (nay, only #$%&ty work on D2 stems from them :P; but hey, enough bitching about D2; it has a #$%&load of problems, and it blatantly shows that the developers are flat-out sick of the game, but it's still a good game, nonetheless; I still have my regrets about getting the expansion, but I did get some enjoyment out of it), it has nothing to do with their games directly. That's the key issue here, at least for me.
Were Blizzard programmers to respond in such a way, yes, I would have EXACTLY the same attitude towards Blizzard and its games. Since they don't, however, the only issue I can take up with their games is with the game itself. Blizzard and Bioware both are on shaky ground with me. Not that that truly matters to them, of course. I'm too forgiving, but even so, I WILL be thinking before I make my next purchases from EITHER company, for a variety of reasons.
I will openly admit that I am strongly looking forward to World of Warcraft, despite my hesitancy to invest in any RPG (let alone another game by Blizzard). However, even given that, I am still very skeptical, and it will take ALOT more than flashy content to win me over, especially considering how much it's going to cost in the long run. To be blunt, if they screw WoW as much as they did D2, I'll probably be done with Blizzard. The only hope they'll have for me buying any of their games is in their RTS department, as at least THOSE games are rock solid (say what you will about Warcraft III, but I for one enjoy it; it does lack the spark of WC2 just a bit, but enough of it is there to make me keep coming back; and I will keep coming back, regardless; WC3 is one Blizzard purchase of late that I can say I don't really regret at all; D2 is another story). Starcraft: Ghost looks to be quite interesting, but again, I'm highly skeptical. Aside from the fact that I virtually gave up console gaming when it died with the SNES (I still mourn that loss), I have my doubts as to the quality and fun-factor of Ghost. It looks to be a very interesting concept, and it is based in the SC universe, but it's gonna take more than a hook in a SC-junkie's mouth to lure this fish in. Sorry, but just because if has the SC label on it doesn't mean I'm going to like it.
Getting back on-topic, I don't see why it's such a big deal to take offense to someone being a jerk. Think about it: you're paying these people, and allowing them to treat you like crud? Sorry, but I don't buy into that. That's not how I work. It's one thing to ruin a game; it's another to ruin your reputation. Bad games crop up every now and then. No one can make every game great, every time. That's just a fact of life. But to be an ass to your customer base is flat-out wrong. It can be avoided, and should be at all costs. Aside from the fact that it only serves to hurt your sales, both current and future, it's totally inappropriate, immature behavoir. If no one stands up and says "Enough is enough. Cut it out, or we're leaving", what will happen? It will become the new standard; a low one, at that. I don't feel that is acceptable. I also don't feel that releasing #$%&ty games and expecting us not to gripe is acceptable, but that's a different issue (although still completely related between Blizzard and Bioware). Then there's the problem of ever-increasing game prices. But, again, that's a seperate issue.
I hold everyone to the same standards. Geoff Frazier is not the equivalent, employee-wise, as Derek French. That is the difference.
Bioware Goes To Hell. - Roland - 02-16-2003
My thoughts exactly. :P
Bioware Goes To Hell. - Roland - 02-16-2003
The people who are complaining about it, despite having a right to complain, are making an issue out of nothing. As I have said (time and again), my issue isn't with the advertising. It's with the attitude of the Bioware crew (or, at the very least, one of them). And you know what? The more I take a good look around, the more I see myself disliking Bioware's heading, in general.
I just chalk it up to another company on my "shaky grounds" list. Blizzard being one of the others. That's not to say I won't ever buy another Blizzard game (particularly if it's NOT by Blizzard North). It just means I'll put alot more thought into it before purchasing. I was NOT going to get Warcraft III. But you know what? I realized that Blizzard South does not equal Blizzard North, and that I have ALWAYS thoroughly enjoyed Blizzard's RTS games. I also realized that, despite how the beta did not appeal to me very much, I saw enjoyment in the game nonetheless. And, besides, it's Warcraft. Ironically, it has FAR more storyline to it than Diablo ever did, and that is one of the things that still draws me back to this day: the incredible storyline. So, with heavy regret at the time, I bought WC3 (CE, no less). And you know what? I'm glad I did. My gut was right: I've gotten alot of enjoyment out of it. Chances are, I'll probably continue to buy Blizzard South games, for the most part, depending on the game and factors surrounding it. However, it will be a long time before I simply run out and buy ANY Blizzard game right off the bat, especially one from Blizzard North, unless I have some truly compelling reason.
World of Warcraft, for example, LOOKS to be very interesting. And, I must admit, the storyline behind the other WC games has me deeply intrigued about this one. However, my gut says they stand a good chance at completely butchering the storlyine. On top of that, I'm skeptical about the game in general, and even MORE hesitant due to the fact that I'll be paying a monthly fee (and probably a damn expensive one, knowing Blizzard). Does that mean I won't be buying WoW ever? No. It just means I'm gonna put alot of damn thought into my decision as to whether I'll buy it or not (regardless of what anyone thinks). Just wlike with Starcraft: Ghost.
As for the NWN expansions, I had planned on at least considering buying them. But what's the point? They're basically only going to "fix" and "add" what already should have been in (another Blizzard trend), and cost me alot more money for something I probably won't even like all that much. And that's aside from my gripes with them currently. So, what's the point? None. So, I won't be getting the XPs anytime soon, if ever. And if I do, it'll be when they get close to the bargain bin. :P
Bioware Goes To Hell. - Roland - 02-16-2003
...that means we should tolerate either of them? Sorry, I'm not buying it. You want to be an ass? Fine. You'll just lose my respect, and my business. Sorry, but I don't deal with jerks. It's poor business practice.