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Talk is over - D-Dave - 03-18-2003
Well this is my first Post after mutely lurking the forums for ages...and yes it is sort of a hotbutton toppic...but i think it still complies with the forum rules as it is not meant to change anyones opinion...well, read ... and judge afterwards!
This is about the upcoming war in Iraq...
I've been stationed in the Region for the last 6 Month and just returned last week and I can tell you I am glad to be back. Enough Backround on to my "real" Post:
After watching Mr. Bush's speech two times now it is clear that war will start within a few days. So there is no point to discuss the pro or con about the whole matter over and over.
But because of the last 6 Month I feel a need to spread some words out to anyone I can reach...and this includes you Lurkers.
From now on it's not a matter of argueing about war but to pray for those involved. Many of the people I met during my stay in Kuwait will participate in the upcoming Battles and some of them may not return. With all due respect for weapon accuracy, civilians will get killed in this conflict. Last but not least many Iraqi soldiers will get killed not while fighting for what they believe in but while beeing forced to fight.
To show respect for those victims and to honor them I ask you not to fall for either sides propaganda. There is no "clean" war but this war is not against Iraqui people, "collateral damage" will happen but this war is not against the muslim religion, war will always be horror, fear, pain, anger and loss but if fortune smiles upon us the outcome of this war may bring stability to a region that has been at war almost non-stop since the days of the crusaders.
What it all comes down to is that this war, just like any other war in history, is caused by few claiming power over others and basicly it is not about oil, it's not about freedom, it's not about anything realy but those few fighting over who is more powerfull. Damn shame the world has still to learn to let those conflicts be handeled by those who cause them personaly. (In my opinion it would serve both Bush and Hussein damn right if they had to step in a ring and beat eachother up for at least a 20 rounds fight)
Well, thats about it. I apologize in advance if anyone should feel offended by this thread, but I realy had to write it to have at least a small vent for my emotions.
Get your heads down and stay down...I fear this will not be over quickly :ph34r:
Dave
Talk is over - AtomicKitKat - 03-18-2003
I agree with one of the last few statements. Were it up to me, any disputes would be settled mano e mano by either the leaders of the disputing parties, or a representative(or sports team) chosen by them, with the challenging party selecting the contest and their opponent picking the location. But, well, you know, it's NOT up to me, so if you want to see world leaders of the future fight it out with one another instead of causing mayhem with armies, vote ME for world leader! :P
Talk is over - Jarulf - 03-18-2003
Interesting:
> ... I ask you not to fall for either sides propaganda.
OK.
>Last but not least many Iraqi soldiers will get killed not
>while fighting for what they believe in but while beeing
>forced to fight.
>There is no "clean" war but this war is not against
>Iraqui people, "collateral damage" will happen but this
>war is not against the muslim religion,
>What it all comes down to is that this war, just like any
>other war in history, is caused by few claiming power
>over others and basicly it is not about oil, it's not about
>freedom, it's not about anything realy but those few
>fighting over who is more powerfull.
Oh well. Not that I might not agree or disagree though.
> but if fortune smiles upon us the outcome of this war
>may bring stability to a region that has been at war
>almost non-stop since the days of the crusaders.
Yeah right. With that track record, in comes US believing that with a swift blow, they will somehow miraculesly manage to acomplish it. Do you honestly believe that yourself? I would say that very, very seldom has anyone managed to force some people, region or country to change into some different direction, governement and so on. Especially when the invading force is one that is in general not liked by the ones geting invaded. Like it or not, but most people in Iraq and other parts of Middle east does not like US so they will hardly welcome being first invaded then ruled (even if temporary). Sure, some might take advantage of it as much as possible but that is hardly the same thing. My own believe is that it will actually be worse in the region. But hey, if US believes starting a war will end all future wars, be my guest, just don't get surprised when it doesn't work.
>Well, thats about it. I apologize in advance if anyone
>should feel offended by this thread, but I realy had to
>write it to have at least a small vent for my emotions.
That is OK, that is one of the purposes of forums I think :)
Talk is over - ShadowHM - 03-18-2003
As for me, I will haul out my CD of John McDermott singing Eric Bogle's anthem "The Green Fields of France".
I will listen to it again, and mourn for you and all of us.
In case the song is not known to you, the lyrics I prefer are here:
http://phobos.astro.uwo.ca/~sshorlin/macbride3.html
Talk is over - Scorzonera - 03-18-2003
D-Dave,Mar 18 2003, 04:07 AM Wrote:this war is not against the Muslim religionMaybe it isnât, but the president finished his last speech with asking for Godâs continuously blessing of America, didnât he ?
Upon which the Pope responded that the countries choosing to go to war without global support must answer to God for their actions.
Talk is over - FoxBat - 03-18-2003
Scorzonera,Mar 18 2003, 08:44 AM Wrote:Maybe it isnât, but the president finished his last speech with asking for Godâs continuously blessing of America, didnât he ?Allah is the God of Abraham, Issac, Jacob. So is the Father of the Christian Trinity. So is the Yahweh of modern Israel. This isn't some outside ecumenicist view, most who know these traditions will attest to it being differing understandings of what is really the same, one God, with a similar line of Jewish prophets.
Upon which the Pope responded that the countries choosing to go to war without global support must answer to God for their actions.
Asserting that there is God from a Christian standpoint thus does not deny these other two.
But of course, God is always on "your side." <_<
Talk is over - Scorzonera - 03-18-2003
Exactly. Given that there is but one God, would He then support one side in the forthcoming war only ?
Furthermore, I thought Christianity since long had left The Old Testament eye-for-an-eye way of retaliation.
Talk is over - NiteFox - 03-18-2003
I'm amazed that there are humans who still believe that God "takes sides."
Talk is over - Quark - 03-18-2003
I hate most religions simply because they think that a god would be benevolent (and, in many cases, benevolent only to them). One look at the world proves otherwise.
It's funny for me arguing what god is like since I'm an atheist. Of course, I could be wrong, so I should at least look at other options. However, if there is a god, I don't see how he could be anything but True Neutral.
Talk is over - Conner Macleod - 03-18-2003
First of all, D-Dave - Thank you SO MUCH FOR SERVING OUR COUNTRY! :) I have nothing but the ultimate in respect for people who sign up and who's job description includes - "Potentially 1) Dying for your country's interests 2) performing deeds no right minded person would perform 3) Living with the horrors you will see in a war".
I was personally against the first Gulf War. I was an 18 year old "mind-full-of-mush" kid at the time, and that war made me vote for the wrong guy in my first election. I was told it was MY VIETNAM. I was scared into that belief because of a high school teacher who was a former hippie who was kind enough to show us her husband's Vietnam photo collection. If you've never seen the result of a bullet to the head, you are not missing out. Anyhow...
But let me tell you what this is all about guys and gals, it's about ridding the world of threats to the future of the United States. It's not about oil (France and Russia's position), it's not about a father's vendetta, it's not about liberating a country. It's about a ruthless dictator who was told 12 years ago to disarm. It's about a ruthless dictator who hates America, Israel, and even his own people. It's about a ruthless dictator who has the connections to give (not sell) mass killing devices to terrorist groups to get what he wants.
I remember about 18 months ago, I was watching this show on television. For some reason, this show went on for a week! And for some other reason, it was on all the channels and it was COMMERCIAL FREE! Highest rated, most watched Reality TV series on television ever. See, the show played like this - 19 people, 3 buildings, 4 airplanes, one morning to finish it. The goal of the show was to kill as many Americans as you can. The reward? A warped vision of heaven if you complete the challenge. Only 3 or 4 of the players didn't complete the challenge, so I guess they get to burn in Hell for all eternity. But the one's that did finish it, caused massive carnage and showed America that we are NOT safe.
Myself, I want to live a life filled with normal problems. I don't want to live a life where some whacko blows himself up in line at McDonald's while I'm ordering a Big Mac. I don't want to be told that I have 30 seconds to live because some a-hole detonated a bomb downtown. I don't want to live a life where one day I go outside and all the birds are dropping from the sky because some jerk blew up an airplane loaded with chemical agents. Nuff said there.
See, imagine if the US was actually Iraq and Saddam was in charge. Here's what you would see. California would have been gassed and wiped out 30 years ago for speaking out and fighting the President. There would be random tribes of rebels on the run in the western states. You would not be allowed to travel anywhere without papers on you. All countries against us would be in ruin from the nuclear bombs Saddam used on them. You would not have cable/satellite TV. You would see no public debate. The Constitution would have been used to light a fire in the White House. Tom Daschle would be in prison for criticism of the President (although I can't stand him, I will fight to the death to make sure he can continue to be a jerk). Congress? Supreme Court? What Congress and Supreme Court - you have no representation in this country and no voice. Get caught with your dope or alcohol? Death. Don't pray to God or announce you are an athiest or agnostic? Death. No cars, no VCRs, not a single luxury. Prisons? Well, as numerous as houses.
People like Saddam have a vision of one world power - with them in charge. Does it seem unrealistic that a country would surrender to a dictator like him? 60 years ago, the French, Polish, entire Eastern European bloc, and ALMOST England had to surrender to Hitler. If Hitler had gotten nukes first, do you think he wouldn't have used them on the United States? He was researching missile/rocket technology up until the end. Hmmm. Well, reverse that, do you think that Saddam Hussein would not use nukes against us? Absolutely not. He would find the people to do it for him. He would talk with his buddies (terrorists), give them the weapons, and buy their plane tickets.
Imagine this - don't take him out of power. He develops more weapons. One day, you wake up and there is no television. There is no electricity. The phone is dead. And so are 60% of Americans. The remaining 40%? They get to live the life I illustrated, because we stood back and just took it. Don't tell me it can't happen. Don't tell me nobody could possibly do that to us. The world is a dangerous place, always has been, and 9/11 showed us how arrogant and naive we truly are.
Americans and Europeans (and some Pacific countries) are the most advanced cultures in the history of mankind. We don't like war, we abhor it. I don't like it, but I know the names of my grandfathers that fought in the Revolutionary, Civil, World I and II wars. Without these wars, your life would be dramatically different. I think alot of Americans have forgotten what it took to get us where we are and to stay where we are. To stay on top, you have to pay a price, and the altar of freedom is not clean. It's bloody, mangled, and not pleasant. Just like a pair of towers that we used to have here.
And p.s. God no longer watches over America, he's been told he's not wanted here anymore.
Talk is over - FoxBat - 03-18-2003
Conner Macleod,Mar 18 2003, 11:55 AM Wrote:First of all, D-Dave - Thank you SO MUCH FOR SERVING OUR COUNTRY! :) I have nothing but the ultimate in respect for people who sign up and who's job description includes...Rather than contradict this, I just want to point out that this post completely goes against the original spirit of thread. At the same time you praise D-Dave, you are falling for the "propaganda" that he is talking about. He's trying to point out that no justification or criticism will change the fact that real human beings will suffer, despite the best intentions, and primarily for the sake of power, which includes the control of the possibility of the scenario you mentioned. Meanwhile, you are again shifting the focus to justification, and away from the realities.
But let me tell you what this is all about guys and gals, it's about ridding the world of threats to the future of the United States... It's about a ruthless dictator who has the connections to give (not sell) mass killing devices to terrorist groups to get what he wants....
It also might help to reply to the correct post in the future, this board does have a threaded display mode.
Talk is over - concre+e - 03-18-2003
Wow Jarulf, I didn't know you were a terrorist!
Looks like they'll have to rename Jarulf's Guide to "Freedom Guide" or something. ;)
Oh, meanwhile Iraqi Officials have rejected Bush's ultimatum and said he should resign himself instead.
So referring to the first post in this thread, maybe Saddam Hussein and Bush jr. shouldn't step into a ring and beat each other up, but simply take each other's advice. :lol:
Talk is over - D-Dave - 03-18-2003
Conner Macleod,Mar 18 2003, 11:55 AM Wrote:First of all, D-Dave - Thank you SO MUCH FOR SERVING OUR COUNTRY! :) I have nothing but the ultimate in respect for people who sign up and who's job description includes...Well, first of all...I assume you are american so I did not exactly serve your Country. I actually served 6 Month with the Anti-Chemical Warfare Unit (German) ;)
Second: Thaks Foxbat that sums it pretty much up!
Third: This war has absolutely nothing to do with 9/11, Al Kaida roots are not anywhere near Iraq but they are mostly in Saudi Arabi which is not anywhere near to being an ally to Iraq.
Fourth: The 60% you quote is the CNN-Garbage Number. Actualy it is ~60% that support application of Force backed by a new UN resolution; Those supporting the current Bush position are only ~40%
Last but not Least: The points above are just to clarify that I do, by no means agree with the reasons presented by the Bush adminstration.
So, my original post in one sentence: People will die and suffer for the ego and ambitons of two men (and those whispering in their ears)!
ah and one last thing:
@Jarulf I personaly do agree with you that most probably this war will enourmously destabilize the whole Region even further, I just expressed my hope that the death of those who will inevitably die in this conflict will not be for nothing.
Talk is over - AtomicKitKat - 03-18-2003
Mabe the Bible is fortelling that Dubbya will die from combustion! Or maybe continue yakking while roasted...
Talk is over - Conner Macleod - 03-18-2003
Mine was a compliment. D-Dave :) I was trying to illustrate that most of the people against the military are people who have little or no respect for what the military does. Example: Bash the military, but partake of all the rights and freedoms that they die to protect. Kind of a Jane Fonda thing, which I can't stand. Remember Vietnam, these people spit on the very boys that were dying in the trenches, which makes me sick to my core.
But anyone here who posts against our boys on the front lines, please do us all a favor and please go back in your parent's basement and let the rest of us keep you free.
As for falling for propaganda? What propaganda!? The only reason the liberals are against this whole mess is because Billy Bob Clinton ain't in charge. What about Clinton's attack of Iraq in December 1998? What about Resolution 1441? How about 9/11? I think I'm preaching to the wrong crowd here! ;)
Talk is over - ShadowHM - 03-18-2003
Conner Macleod,Mar 18 2003, 02:12 PM Wrote: I think I'm preaching to the wrong crowd here!
This crowd is big on facts. Additional rhetoric will indeed fall on deaf ears, or, worse yet, annoyed and irritated ears.
Preach elsewhere, please.
Talk is over - Nicodemus Phaulkon - 03-18-2003
Trying regurgitation.
Your post resembles nothing more than the vomit produced from half-digested CNN soundbites.
Posting against the policies that place soldiers in harm's way isn't the equivalent of spitting on soldiers. Your opinion; misinformed, distorted, corrupted and bloated as it is... is still YOUR opinion. Trust that we have our own, and the ability to post them.
Talk is over - WarBlade - 03-18-2003
Conner Macleod,Mar 19 2003, 04:55 AM Wrote:But let me tell you what this is all about guys and gals, it's about ridding the world of threats to the future of the United States. It's not about oil (France and Russia's position), it's not about a father's vendetta, it's not about liberating a country. It's about a ruthless dictator who was told 12 years ago to disarm. It's about a ruthless dictator who hates America, Israel, and even his own people. It's about a ruthless dictator who has the connections to give (not sell) mass killing devices to terrorist groups to get what he wants."But let me tell you what this paragraph is all about guys and gals." It's about fish. Plain and simple. All the little fishies swimming happily in the sea with their mouths wide open ready to swallow sharp metal objects. Baited objects fed to them by people who apparently were correct in the assumption that their are enough stupid fish around who are willing to swallow anything
hook
line
sinker.
Spare us us the BS Conner. There aren't too many 'fish' at LL.
Quote:I remember about 18 months ago, I was watching this show on television. For some reason, this show went on for a week! And for some other reason, it was on all the channels and it was COMMERCIAL FREE! Highest rated, most watched Reality TV series on television ever. See, the show played like this - 19 people, 3 buildings, 4 airplanes, one morning to finish it. The goal of the show was to kill as many Americans as you can. The reward? A warped vision of heaven if you complete the challenge. Only 3 or 4 of the players didn't complete the challenge, so I guess they get to burn in Hell for all eternity. But the one's that did finish it, caused massive carnage and showed America that we are NOT safe.
Ah, the prelude to the defence argument.
Fish food. <_<
Quote:Myself, I want to live a life filled with normal problems. I don't want to live a life where some whacko blows himself up in line at McDonald's while I'm ordering a Big Mac. I don't want to be told that I have 30 seconds to live because some a-hole detonated a bomb downtown. I don't want to live a life where one day I go outside and all the birds are dropping from the sky because some jerk blew up an airplane loaded with chemical agents. Nuff said there.
*shrugs* You get what what you vote for.
Talk is over - Dani - 03-18-2003
Conner Macleod,Mar 18 2003, 05:55 PM Wrote:Get caught with your dope or alcohol? Death. Don't pray to God or announce you are an athiest or agnostic? Death. No cars, no VCRs, not a single luxury. Prisons? Well, as numerous as houses.What a load of crok, and the above paragraph shows you don't even have your facts straight.
Quote:Americans and Europeans (and some Pacific countries) are the most advanced cultures in the history of mankind
LOL!
As for your towers, I guarantee that there will be sequels with bigger budget and box office in this decade, and they will be the direct result of dubya's foreign policy. EXCEPT!
Except there's a far bigger threat to you, something that CNN etc. hardly even mention. There's a new king of the plague castle. Ladies and Gentlemen, we have a killer flu. A disease that is lethal, yet very contagious and airborne. According the WHO the lethal pneumonia is still a total mystery, and they haven't got a clue as for a cure.
Talk is over - Jarulf - 03-18-2003
... it is amazing what unexpected Lurker that turn up :)
Haven't seen you in a while. Nice to see you are still here.
I don't have the slightest idea how you managed to get to the conclusion that I am a terrorist, I am not.