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BuriBear - Olon97 - 04-24-2003
Despite the title, I'm not trying to claim a 'variant' idea or write a guide. The crux of the idea is: enough strength for armor and switch weapon, a little vitality to get by in early-mid levels, and pump dexterity as much as possible thereafter.
Basically, I like how druids can use bows/xbows in wereform, and have enjoyed using a Buriza (with a shael of course) on werebears and werewolves in the past. Not as cheeze as an Amazon using one, but still cheeze.
I'm fairly certain that wereform using Buriza uses dexterity instead of strength in damage calculations. That's based on the character screen, which I'm always hesitant to trust. I remember how CD2 amazons used to pump dex to insane levels to make their bow damage more effective (some bowazons probably still do), why not do the same on a werebear?
I have more charms that add to life than add to dexterity, and for softcore PvM, a werebear doesn't need all that much vitality to get by. I'm sure I'll put some points in vitality for the sake of dying less in mid-levels, but probably not more than the 50-80 vitality range. Strength, well I haven't totally figured out what other equipment I'll use (I may even play untwinked besides the Buriza for a little extra challenge).
Of course, a nice side effect of all this dex is I won't be hurting for AR like some werebear builds do. Also, if I do a shield / weapon combination on my switch (thinking 6 shael phase blade for the 4 frame attack+elemental charms - maybe baranar's if I find one), then my block % will actually be pretty good. If I do get a 4 frame attack on the switch, I'm thinking about wearing some knockback gloves and occasionally going into 'Leb disable' mode - another case where not missing very often is handy (gaps in 4 frame hits allow the LEB to finish its hit recovery anim and trigger a spark).
Anyway, I'm going to try this idea out starting tonight. Any thoughts / suggestions?
BuriBear - Sporky Smurf - 04-25-2003
This was at the Amazon Basin. The thing about Wolves/Bears is that IAS on a weapon speeds up their attack more than the base speed of a weapon. It's supposed to be an excellent build, especially if you use Hunger (it uses a different attack graphic, and it goes a lot faster) with lots of elemental damage.
BuriBear - FenrisWulf - 04-25-2003
You're talking about RogueMage's Hungry Hunter? Yes, that will work, but you can also do fine as just a regular Melee Werebear, with the Buriza instead of some conventional weapon, and Dex pumped, instead of Strength. It's a solid build with just a little twist, so it should work fine. I'd suggest you Shael it and get Highlord's Wrath, taking you to 7 frames. Check out TheDragoon's guide for appropriate weapon socketing and all-around good advice. :)
BuriBear - Olon97 - 04-25-2003
Thanks for the thoughts. I tracked down the 'Hungry Hunter' thread here. Very interesting observations on Hunger speeds, and I am tempted to try out gloves with fire arrow charges some time just for kicks. The Hunger speeds tested seemed to come out generally 1 frame faster than normal attacks, at least in the 6-10 frame attack range. I'll be plopping a point onto hunger just out of the principle of being a speed addict.
I'm quite familiar with Dragoon's guides for wereforms, best IAS references for wereform out there, although I already had an excel spreadsheet that gets similar information based on one of the formulas brought up here at LL more than a year ago (probably one trying to match IAS/WIAS inputs to observed data). The two handed -10 base chart on Dragoon's bear guide doesn't go down to 120 WIAS (stops at 80 - probably because that's the max for cruel X of quickness with 2 sockets), but I calculated (and observed) a 4 frame attack on a 6 shael champion axe with a small amount of external IAS (at least 25 if I recall).
I had a successful werebear on an account I let lapse while taking about a year long break from D2 - he used Highlords and Gore Rider for that nice deadly strike. This time around I have the option of using an Atma's scarab (haven't found a Highlords and I'm trade currency poor so it isn't likely in the short term) - and I will naturally use some gloves get the 20% external IAS to push the Shael Buriza to the next breakpoint.
BuriBear - Occhidiangela - 04-25-2003
Patch 1.10 will make this build obsolete by fixing the 'feature' that allows a Burriza Do Kanon to be treated, for damage purposes, as a melee weapon, when it's function, as a cross bow, is as a MISSILE weapon. Funny, you dont see any bolts coming out of it when usnig Feral Rage, do you? :)
IMO, it should disable all Wereform attack modes when equipped, as wereform is a MELEE attack mode. Alternatively, it should give out damage like a wooden club in the hands of a were creature: a big piece of wood being swung as a weapon. :P
Sorry, rant over, but this 'feature' smells to me. For those who enjoy it, I suppose that fun is where you find it. :)
BuriBear - Albion Child - 04-25-2003
I like the feature that allows wereforms to use missile weapons for melee. I just wonder....The Buriza is tried and true, but what about goldstrike arch, eaglehorn, windforce, etc. Has anyone build a wereform around those bows?
BuriBear - Olon97 - 04-25-2003
Occhidiangela,Apr 25 2003, 04:16 PM Wrote:Patch 1.10 will make this build obsolete by fixing the 'feature' that allows a Burriza Do Kanon to be treated, for damage purposes, as a melee weapon, when it's function, as a cross bow, is as a MISSILE weapon. Funny, you dont see any bolts coming out of it when usnig Feral Rage, do you? :)I've gotten used to patches making my builds obsolete (low dex CD2 smite pally for instance). Since I plan on playing ladder chars (not to compete, but to be in a fresh economy), I'm not too concerned.
IMO, it should disable all Wereform attack modes when equipped, as wereform is a MELEE attack mode. Alternatively, it should give out damage like a wooden club in the hands of a were creature: a big piece of wood being swung as a weapon. :P
Sorry, rant over, but this 'feature' smells to me. For those who enjoy it, I suppose that fun is where you find it. :)
The fact that a bolt/arrow doesn't get depleted each hit and also that you're able to attack without any bolts/arrows is the cheapest part of wereforms with bows, IMO. It makes it like a free 'indestructable' modifier. I would prefer that they just fixed that element of bow/crossbow wereform use. I don't see any sign of any weapon when using werforms with any attack skill, as far as I can tell the weapons totally dissapear and their innate properties are magically tied into the powers of the wolf's/bear's claws. If it's a well crafted axe or a well crafted bow, you're still talking about some defiance of the law of conservation of mass seeing the thing meld into animal claws and back.
No offense taken on the rant - I understand your perspective. I played a CD2 hammerdin and a CD2 sorceress with a piercing bow (that made glacial spike pierce). If there is a build that probably wasn't forseen by blizzard, and yet is still interesting to play - I don't have any personal inhibitions about trying it out. Both of those other builds were fixed because they weren't what Blizzard intended, and that's fine too.
BuriBear - Olon97 - 04-25-2003
Albion Child,Apr 25 2003, 05:32 PM Wrote:I like the feature that allows wereforms to use missile weapons for melee. I just wonder....The Buriza is tried and true, but what about goldstrike arch, eaglehorn, windforce, etc. Has anyone build a wereform around those bows?A bear with a 40% WIAS hydra bow (WF with a shael) would have roughly a 12 frame attack (based on Heri's speed calculator, which I don't fully trust for wereforms), and could potentially get that down to a 10 frame attack with external IAS. A slvl 20 wolf would have a 9 frame regular attack and a 4 frame fury (again, take these number's with a grain of salt - I've seen that calculator return 3 frame fury for some setups, and I'm pretty sure that's not what happens in-game).
If you have a spare Windforce kicking around (I've never even seen one) - trying it on a werewolf probably would work just fine, but it might be a tad slow on a bear, depending on your tastes.
Eaglehorn is quite dubious - not enough weapon IAS possible.
Goldstrike arch with a shael (70% WIAS) seems like it would be decent too. The calc claims an 8 frame werebear attack, and 8norm/3fury for a slvl 20 werewolf (I highly doubt the 3).
BuriBear - Mavfin - 04-25-2003
Unfortunately, Occhi, I believe Isolde has already said that this will not be changed in 1.10. The bow/xbow wereform builds will still work. :blink:
BuriBear - Occhidiangela - 04-25-2003
I can still hope. However, it is 'non mainstream' enough to not get high up on the list of
Things We Must Fix.
Sort of like the Manashield bug in Diablo I, except that one was almost a game breaker for some folks. :P
BuriBear - Logic_X - 04-25-2003
I used goldstrike w/ a WW.....it was decently fast (it was an unsocketed Goldstrike tho.....so dunno if it'd hit that questionable 3 frames....) - it's pretty fun too......I used it until I got to a respectable level .... then switched to my real weapon (shael sazabi sword.....heh.....speed druid....) - just so ya know.....I use that shael sazabi for speed weapon testing....(60% ias, -10 WSM = nice) ....I need to get my hands on a 3 sock Cruel Cryptic of Quickness....that's my ultimate target melee weapon....
As for weapon speed.....I don't think any character's attacks drop below 4 fpa, so it would stand to reason the druid's would cap around there too....I could be mistaken though....(seeing as how I haven't ever looked up the FPA's on things like Strafe or zeal in quite a while)
BuriBear - Nicodemus Phaulkon - 04-25-2003
Quote:I used goldstrike w/ a WW.....it was decently fast (it was an unsocketed Goldstrike tho.....so dunno if it'd hit that questionable 3 frames....) - it's pretty fun too......I used it until I got to a respectable level .... then switched to my real weapon (shael sazabi sword.....heh.....speed druid....) - just so ya know.....I use that shael sazabi for speed weapon testing....(60% ias, -10 WSM = nice) ....I need to get my hands on a 3 sock Cruel Cryptic of Quickness....that's my ultimate target melee weapon....
You seem to have a bad case of virtual asthma, there. Can I offer you a puffer? :huh:
*gasp*..... *puff*..... *wheeze*..... *pause*..... *
Or perhaps a semi-friendly nod towards reading on how a comma, semi-colon and period could be used so your paragraphs don't resemble a 1930's Tommy-gun target range. ;)
Quote:el·lip·sis ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-lpss)
n. pl. el·lip·ses (-sz)
The omission of a word or phrase necessary for a complete syntactical construction but not necessary for understanding.
An example of such omission.
A mark or series of marks (... or * * *, for example) used in writing or printing to indicate an omission, especially of letters or words.
As you can see, THREE dots is sufficient. Far less painful to read, as well.
BuriBear - Archon_Wing - 04-25-2003
Umm, I believe we should do more before he virtually suffocates to death! I think the speed of the weapon has put him in shock. :ph34r:
BuriBear - FenrisWulf - 04-25-2003
Occhidiangela, I don't really see anything wrong with a Wereform Druid using a Ranged Weapon as Melee, any more so than I do for him using any weapon at all. Or wearing armor. Or using a shield. For all of these things, there is no exact equivalent in Wereform: does this armor make my fur naturally more repellent to attacks? Or does this shield cause my arms to become miraculously hard, such that they can turn aside the fiercest blow without leaving so much as a scratch? I found the previous point about item properties being passed magically onto the Wereform Druid a decent realization of how these things might actually come about, and thus I see no problems with the power and speed of the Buriza being imbued into my Werewolf/Werebear's claws.
But yes, in any case, Isolde has made it clear that, for now, this is not a bug, and it is not slated to be changed.
BuriBear - Logic_X - 04-25-2003
Heh....I've gotten better about it actually... (I picked it up from IRC and it never went away.....really hard to break a bad habit....it's like chewing fingernails - which I happily do not do)
I'll try and limit it more :P.... but it's hard to overcome the 4-8 dot habit (btw.... as you can tell I usually lean towards 4 :D, and have all but eliminated the 6-8 range lol)
I prefer a saying an old friend had - "Looks like a little kid with a hole puncher went crazy on your post".
Happens more when I'm tired or not really paying attention (this one occured because the latter) - You'll also notice I use "-" a lot instead of ( ... ) stuff.
And I also use the ... improperly *gasp* - I tend to use it to show a moment of distraction or thought :).
Think about it this way.... at least I didn't do a whole guide that way lol (I actually do have a guide - it's for necromancers though, I'll probably put it up for nit-picking on here after I release 1.09.3... right now it's only on Dii.net forums heh, they're not nit-picky enough for me anymore though, I've purposely left stuff out and they say nothing...NOTHING!!!! *smirk*)
BuriBear - FoxBat - 04-26-2003
Jeeze, you actually had me thinking this was true for a moment. :P
I've got to figure out some way to stop wereforms w/bows, else there's a lot of abuse in store for a new "feature" bows will get...
BuriBear - electricblue - 04-28-2003
Quote:As for weapon speed.....I don't think any character's attacks drop below 4 fpa, so it would stand to reason the druid's would cap around there too....I could be mistaken though....(seeing as how I haven't ever looked up the FPA's on things like Strafe or zeal in quite a while)
3 fpa is bugged or may be capped, that is you can not do dmg, i tried this once and ended in no dmg, no hitting sounds, no stuns etc.. (i could reach 3 fpa fury with some experimental gear).
BuriBear - Olon97 - 04-29-2003
electricblue,Apr 28 2003, 11:31 PM Wrote:3 fpa is bugged or may be capped, that is you can not do dmg, i tried this once and ended in no dmg, no hitting sounds, no stuns etc.. (i could reach 3 fpa fury with some experimental gear).Good to know.
A few observations from playing my bear:
- Hunger with a shael Buriza feels FAST. Either I'm dropping from a 7 frame maul to a 5 frame hunger, or shael Buriza + 20 OIAS doesn't really reach the 7 frame breakpoint to begin with and I'm observing 8maul/6hunger (I suspect it's the former, because I have no reason to doubt Dragoon's tables). This is subjective, and I probably don't have as good of a nose for such things as when I was playing a CD2 smite paladin (when smite min/max was really close I would just time how long it took to take down a lightning spire in the arcane sanctuary with different IAS setups). I just wouldn't expect a 7/6 difference to be so drastic.
- I love going back to NM or Normal to help people, because the 'freezes target' modifier from Buriza kicks in much more often in melee than it does ranged, and with mlevels lower than mine I'm freezing and shattering everything but bosses (CD2 iceblink flashbacks anyone?). Of course freezing is a little redundant with maul's stun (and shockwave's), but the slow effect on bosses is always welcome. I love the way a monster looks when it becomes an icecube, and the shatter graphic and sound are delicious too. :)
- Each point in dex packs a nice punch. I get better damage, better AR, and my defense keeps creeping up, especially with the bonus from maxed werebear. Considering druids only get 2 life per vit (compared to 4 per vit for a barb), pumping dex (or strength for a standard weapon build) and relying on item/charms for life seems like a no-brainer. Less % chance of getting extra healing from a red, but that doesn't matter when you fill your belt with purples. I did put some points into vit early on, because I play through all the acts in all the difficulties and I felt I needed more life to avoid pointless deaths.
- Despite having a fair level of 'cheeze' quotient, this character is far from Uber. Somewhat weak in cows, which is OK because I didn't really expect cows to be a strength. Non-cold immune monsters who are immune to physical go down quickly (I'm finding Hunger does take them down faster due to the lower frame per attack). My switch is still a socketed axe from normal diff with 2 chips in it, because I don't have the shaels or the weapon (or the knockback gloves) I'll need for my LEB disabling mode. Haven't decided between a 6 shael champion like my old bear or a 6 shael phase blade with some shield (haven't been finding/ shopping for much in the way of shields). Isolated bosses don't stand a chance of course.
- I like warcry better than shockwave for keeping a mercenary safe in big packs. Chock that up to laziness / lack of aiming skill on my side. If the shockwave duration gets upped in 1.10 to the amounts stated in the skill description... oh my. (ok - that has nothing to do with this bear in particular)
- I'm thinking about getting my hands on a koku for cold/phys immunes. Backoff, unshift, and fire normal arrows (which become fire arrows). I've already had a few instances where firing normal bolts from the Buriza was the best thing to do (like in flayer jungle when I saw the opposite side of the river was flooded with might enhanced flayers, blowdart guys, and birds - may as well thin things out a bit before wading into that mess).
On the whole, I'm having fun with my bear. Subjectively it seems like a middle ground between a cookie cutter, Cruel X of Quickness with 2 shaels bear (not speaking from experience - never had a cruel X of quickness with 2 sockets), and some druid builds that struggle beyond nightmare. Viable (what isn't), but still a fair amount of work and a lot of fun.
BuriBear - TheDragoon - 04-29-2003
Quote:Hunger with a shael Buriza feels FAST. Either I'm dropping from a 7 frame maul to a 5 frame hunger, or shael Buriza + 20 OIAS doesn't really reach the 7 frame breakpoint to begin with and I'm observing 8maul/6hunger (I suspect it's the former, because I have no reason to doubt Dragoon's tables).Actually, it could very well just be the difference between 7 frames and 6 frames. When every attack is going at 6 frames, it feels VERY fast (often significantly faster than most Werewolves). Here's the way I've always seen it:
7 Frames - Nice and Fast
6 Frames - Significantly faster, tons of fun!
5 Frames - Almost to the point where I can't count the number of swings over a given time interval
4 Frames - So fast I can hardly tell where one swing ends and the next begins
3 Frames - You can actually make out 3 frames of animation so it looks kind of funny
2 Frames - 2 Distinct frames of animation that sort of blur together making it look like they are both going at once. :)
BuriBear - Logic_X - 04-29-2003
hmm...how would one go about getting 2-3 frames (or is there no way to w/o playing it in a mod or using a illegit item?).....
If I'm not mistaken....a 6 shael phase = like 4 frames per hunger for a bear right? (-30 1hswing, 120% ias) - same as a 5 shael for frames per attack for hunger heh...
would a 2-3 frame require something along the lines of a Jeweler's Demon Crossbow of Swiftness (4 sockets, 20% ias, -60 speed) - with 4 shaels..... ( 100% ias, -60 speed) - or a 5 socket Demon w/ 5 shaels (same speed)
*can't remember if the 2 highest ias can spawn on missle weapons....so I stuck w/ swiftness for 20%...*
Those are in relation to hunger (that's bloody quick on a bear)