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Optimizing Skill- and Synergy-Levels - MadScientist - 07-30-2003
After getting my hands on the new skills.txt and the real formulas how the damage of elemental skills is calculated I decided to write a little c-porgram to find the optimal distributions for skill points over the actual skill, the synergy skill(s) and (if applicable) the mastery skill for a given number of skill points to achieve the maximum average damage. I also wrote another routine that calculates where to put your next skill point starting from an initial configuration.
It seems that putting points in synergy skills does not really pay off unless the level of the original skill is very high and where masteries are concerned only the first point is very important and maxing the original skill is most often the primary objective as well.
For your amusement the result for the sorceress' Chain Lightning (if you are interested in more results just post)
[edit] deleted that - use my calculator [/edit]
The Mad Scientist
Optimizing Skill- and Synergy-Levels - Brista - 07-30-2003
Bolty muttered something about hosting 1.10 guides once the patch goes final. You might want to PM him if you are interested in that option
I think this would be very useful indeed if you develop a decent interface. The Dragoon's Wereform Central is an excellent example
One thing it could do with is a Where do I put my next point? function. So if you have Hydra 12, Fire Mastery 5 and Firebolt 9 it compares the effects of adding a point in each and tells you where to put your point to get the best effect. It should list them as there are often judgment calls to be made, more damage is not always the best option
If you can host it elsewhere please do and give us the link :)
Optimizing Skill- and Synergy-Levels - TheDragoon - 07-31-2003
Quote:The Dragoon's Wereform Central is an excellent example* TheDragoon gets all teary-eyed
Thanks for the compliment! I honestly tried to make it look nice and work well and it makes my day to see people actually hold it up as a good example! :D
Optimizing Skill- and Synergy-Levels - Loschonorg - 07-31-2003
you didn't know we all loved it?
* Loschonorg raises hand amongst thousands of others.
losc :D
Optimizing Skill- and Synergy-Levels - MadScientist - 07-31-2003
So, I finished a first version of a calculator. Try it out and please report all mistakes, typos and the like! At least, something to do while waiting for my Mone-Carlo simulations to finish :)
http://stud4.tuwien.ac.at/~e9325732/skillcalc.html
The Mad Scientist
Optimizing Skill- and Synergy-Levels - TheDragoon - 07-31-2003
Might I suggest making the output fields read-only? I mean, I don't really see any reason to type anything into them. :)
Optimizing Skill- and Synergy-Levels - TheDragoon - 07-31-2003
Well, I know that it works well in that it returns correct values, but that's the first time I've ever seen someone talk about it as an artistic layout. :) I spent a long time trying to make it look good (and still modifying it every once in a while) and seeing it pointed to as an artistic example makes me happy that the work I put into its appearance is appreciated!
Optimizing Skill- and Synergy-Levels - Raziel - 07-31-2003
That is superb. But you're gonna hate me for saying this.
You need to represent that information in a 3d bar graph of sorts.
X axis: slvl of [skill]
Y axis: free skill points
z axis: [skill], [synergy1], ...., [synergy x], [mastery]
then plot out a 3d "terrain"-like graph representing the points you place in the skill, it's synergies, and the mastery to achieve optimum at each slvl of skill
actually, that explanation is really confusing :(
and how the heck would you do multiple synergies??
Optimizing Skill- and Synergy-Levels - Quillan - 07-31-2003
I must commend you on an excellent resource for sorcs... If you can't sleep feel free to drum up a similar program for the rest of the classes! Assuming all your information/outputs are correct (beyond my math skills!) this information will be used by many many people, and harkens back to chippy dips days!
Cheers, keep it up
Quillan
Optimizing Skill- and Synergy-Levels - Shaft.ed - 07-31-2003
Yes this is certainly sweet. Now I don't have to estimate or find a calculator and scrap paper everytime I level up.
Thank you for bringing mathmatical happiness to many :D
Optimizing Skill- and Synergy-Levels - Brista - 07-31-2003
Excellent
I'll put a longer post in about design but first
1) Who is the target audience? Lurkers? Everyone?
2) If it were to become popular would that present your host with bandwidth issues? (It's a college?)
3) Would you like it if lots of people used it?
Optimizing Skill- and Synergy-Levels - Erthshade - 07-31-2003
I don't see Enchant listed in your skill dropdown box. And I take it that the cold armors aren't included because they're not damage-dealers in a normal sense?
Optimizing Skill- and Synergy-Levels - Dagni - 07-31-2003
The calculator truncates to an integer the min and max damage, then gives the average damage based upon that. It shouldn't. The game only truncates to a 1/256 increment.
Because of this, the calculator can give incorrect results as to where to put the next skill point. For example, with Firebolt level 2, and one skill point unspent, the calculator says to put it in Fire Bolt, when it should be put in Fire Mastery for the best average damage.
This is how to calculate it with correct truncating:
[(2)^hit_shift * min_dmg * (100 + mastery) / 100] / 256
With Fire Bolt slvl 2 and mastery slvl 1, that's:
[128 * 9 * 130 / 100] / 256 = 5.84765625 min damage (5.85 with no truncating at all)
[128 * 15 * 130 / 100] / 256 = 9.75 max damage
So that's ~ 7.8 avg damage, versus exactly 7.5 average damage with Fire Bolt level 3 and no mastery.
- Dagni
Optimizing Skill- and Synergy-Levels - TabithaWolf - 07-31-2003
Quote:HitShift: 8
EMin 1, EMinL: 0/0/0/0/0
EMax 40, EMaxL: 11/13/15/15/15
What exactly does this mean?
Also, you might want to do a check for certain skills who's prereq is also a synergy. If a skill has say 4 prereqs and 2 of those prereqs are synergies to that skill, the synergy skill level must be at least 2. That's assuming you aren't automatically calculating those.
It would be nice if you would add a +skills option, as well, so you can see what the damage levels will be like with +skills gear.
Optimizing Skill- and Synergy-Levels - GenericKen - 08-01-2003
TabithaWolf,Jul 31 2003, 11:45 PM Wrote:Well, I don't think we'd need the calculator to told your hand for you or anything. The optimal skill point distribution is a relatively simple system: whichever skill would give you the most damage boost (including bonuses it recieves from other skills) is the skill you should drop points in.Quote:HitShift: 8
EMin 1, EMinL: 0/0/0/0/0
EMax 40, EMaxL: 11/13/15/15/15
What exactly does this mean?
Also, you might want to do a check for certain skills who's prereq is also a synergy. If a skill has say 4 prereqs and 2 of those prereqs are synergies to that skill, the synergy skill level must be at least 2. That's assuming you aren't automatically calculating those.
It would be nice if you would add a +skills option, as well, so you can see what the damage levels will be like with +skills gear.
In the case of addative bonuses, the best skill to invest in is of course always the one that has the biggest +% per level in it (presuming an initial point in all skills, of course). This is the case with many combat skill synergies and with multiple synergies with different +%s per level.
In the case of multiplicative bonuses, the best skill to invest in depends on the effective bonuses recieved from the skills it multiplies with. The effective multiplicative bonu of a skill with +% (a) multiplied with another +% bonus (B) is (1+a)*(1+B). It's fortunately a very stable system, as the higher b gets, the more effective points in a would become, and vice versa.
Calculating for +skills is surprizingly simple. Simply treat non-synergy skills as though you had invested them up to where they are with +to skills. As a consequence, nterestingly enough, having +to skills generally makes investing in the synergy more effective.
Optimizing Skill- and Synergy-Levels - lemekim - 08-01-2003
A simple request - allow skill level and mastery levels to go beyond 20? =)
Optimizing Skill- and Synergy-Levels - MadScientist - 08-01-2003
Nice to hear that you like it!
@Dragoon
yep - they should be read-only. I'll do that!
@Raziel
how do you you do 3d-graphics in java? I could create the data quite easliy but I don't know what to do with it. Any help would be appreciated!
@Brista
1: I think everyone will ike to use it not just lurkers but I think lurkers are my best bet to get it error-free!
2: right now the calculator is at an university server - I don't think there are bandwidth issues but if there are they will contact me for sure <_<
3: when it is finished - why not?
@Erthschade
I forgot Enchant, I will add it to the next version!
@Dagni
Thanks, I did not know that! I will modify the code!
@Tabithawolf
What about a checkbox that allows only legal synergy-values?
@lemekim
I will add fields where you can enter the bonus you get to the actual skill and the mastery-skill from items and the like - that's what the second column is for. I did not have time to do that - I really wanted to go home!
Besides that I think I should modify the code for Charged Bolt to calculate the damage if all bolts connect. Is it true that in 1.10 the # of bolts is limited to 25?
[Edit] The new version is online Skillcalculator
I won't make any changes since for two weeks I'll have no access to a computer. Keep posting suggestions![/Edit]
The Mad Scientist
Optimizing Skill- and Synergy-Levels - lemekim - 08-01-2003
TabithaWolf,Jul 31 2003, 11:45 PM Wrote:Also, you might want to do a check for certain skills who's prereq is also a synergy. If a skill has say 4 prereqs and 2 of those prereqs are synergies to that skill, the synergy skill level must be at least 2. That's assuming you aren't automatically calculating those.Just to point out, sometimes you might have a skill from an item, and in that case it will not have/need any prerequisites. So technically, it is possible to have, say, level 6 Fireball, level 3 Mastery and nothing into synergies.
So a checkbox enabling/disabling this feature (as Mad Scientist suggested himself) would be the way to go I think.
The +skill boxes look great =) I just thought of something else - currently the % fire/coldghtning skill damage increase items stack with mastery. Is it possible to add a dropbox (or perhaps input field) so that you could see your damage and skill plan with such items? They will most certainly affect the choice of where to put your skillpoints.
Optimizing Skill- and Synergy-Levels - Olon97 - 08-01-2003
The missing factor in these optimizations is mana use.
Given a mana pool / cast rate / % regen bonuses (including a handy box for slevel warmth) - I would like to know how many consecutive seconds I can spam the spell in question before running out of mana. Potion use is all fine and good, but if you can get very similar damage without needing to return to town to restock on mana potions, then that in my mind is closer to "optimal".
Factor in the rarity (hopefully) of SOJs during early ladder play, and people playing caster types may realize that using a less than maxed primary spell with maxed synergies/mastery (or a constant mana use primary spell) may be the way to maximize their kills per playing session, despite the damage per cast not being totally optimal.
The trouble with throwing a factor like mana use into a calculator would be that people's expecations of reasonable mana use can vary alot. Things like how much downtime between fights people give themselves, and how good they are at picking up mana potions as monsters drop them all vary what drain rates are optimal.
OK. Done with my rambling. Great calculator BTW. :)
Optimizing Skill- and Synergy-Levels - GenericKen - 08-02-2003
Olon97,Aug 1 2003, 04:29 PM Wrote:The missing factor in these optimizations is mana use.You're asking for an entirely different sort of calculator man.
Given a mana pool / cast rate / % regen bonuses (including a handy box for slevel warmth) - I would like to know how many consecutive seconds I can spam the spell in question before running out of mana. Potion use is all fine and good, but if you can get very similar damage without needing to return to town to restock on mana potions, then that in my mind is closer to "optimal".
Factor in the rarity (hopefully) of SOJs during early ladder play, and people playing caster types may realize that using a less than maxed primary spell with maxed synergies/mastery (or a constant mana use primary spell) may be the way to maximize their kills per playing session, despite the damage per cast not being totally optimal.
The trouble with throwing a factor like mana use into a calculator would be that people's expecations of reasonable mana use can vary alot. Things like how much downtime between fights people give themselves, and how good they are at picking up mana potions as monsters drop them all vary what drain rates are optimal.
OK. Done with my rambling. Great calculator BTW. :)
Besides, most of us get by simply eyeballing our mana usage. There are only so many really mana-intensive skills.