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+--- Thread: Why Golems suck? (/thread-10473.html)
Why Golems suck? - whyBish - 08-11-2003
I haven't seen any MPQers mention this in here so :
http://www.battle.net/forums/thread.aspx?F...unt=3#post17729
"
It seems there's a problem with ALL necromancer synergies, not just Bone Armor.
Instead of adding +35% defense or +5% life per point in other golems, etc, the synergies give a direct +35 and/or +5. In the long run, this means you get almost NO synergies bonus... leading people to believe that golems "just plain suck!!" when they dump 80 points into golems and see no improvement over 20 points into golems...
"
Can anyone here confirm?
Why Golems suck? - Zath - 08-11-2003
This isn't so much a bug as bad documentation I think. The problem here is that synergy bonuses are applied additively with skill level bonuses to the base life of summoned creatures. A Bone Wall, for example, has 431 base life in Hell, and each additional skill level in Bone Wall will grant it a +25% life bonus, whereas each additinal synergy level in Bone Prison or Bone Armor will grant it a +10% life bonus. The combination of L20 Bone Wall (+500% life) and L20 Bone Armor (+200% life) will therefore apply a combined +700% life bonus, giving your Bone Walls 431x(1+7)=3,448 life.
Why Golems suck? - Pren - 08-11-2003
I don't think you follow.
Instead of receiving a bonus percent from prison/wall, bone armor receives a direct increase each level. Which is larger than bone armor itself gives.
This guy is saying that the same holds true for all necromancer synergies and seeking confirmation.
Why Golems suck? - Zath - 08-11-2003
Bone Armor receives +10 absorption per level, and +15 absorption per synergy level. This was not the issue being discussed in that B.net post whyBish had linked to however. The original poster there was complaining about golem life instead. My apologies if the Bone Wall example seemed out of place, but the same principle with calculating Bone Wall life applies to golems as well.
Myself above Wrote:The problem here is that synergy bonuses are applied additively with skill level bonuses to the base life of summoned creatures.
The result of this is that synergies are effectively increasing base life by a fixed amount. In other words, there is no difference between a percentage bonus or a direct bonus. The base life of a golem is fixed, therefore a fixed percentage of that fixed base life must be fixed as well. If a golem had 1,000 base life, and the skill description said you gained +10% life per level, why would you complain about it only adding 100 life per level to the golem?
Why Golems suck? - Obi2Kenobi - 08-12-2003
What is being said that instead of it adding 100 life because of the 10% of 1000%, it would add 10 life. It is a number added, not a percent multiplied. Which isn't what is says it is.
Why Golems suck? - Zath - 08-12-2003
I give up. Someone with more clout try again please.
Why Golems suck? - whyBish - 08-12-2003
It actually looks rather sad...the golems would get *worse* in many of the attributes if it was changed to a % bonus (assuming they are currently additive).
Golems have less life than a low level shadow, and can't do anywhere near the damage a shadow can. I think the base golem life needs to be multiplied by a factor of around ten. This would at least give some of them HPs in the 1000 ranges rather than the low hundreds currently...
Why Golems suck? - Pren - 08-13-2003
What was posed by the original thread was that instead of
Fire Golem Receives Bonuses From:
Golem Mastery
Summon Resist
Clay Golem: +20 Attack Rating Per Level
Blood Golem: +5% Life Per Level
Iron Golem: +35% Defense Per Level
Fire golem was receiving +5 hp per level from blood golem, and +35 defense from iron golem
Now, as fire golem is listed as
Hit Points: 328
Defense: 195
Obviously, a gain of 5% hp would be significantly better than a gain of 5hp. Same with the defense, almost twice as much.
Are we on the same page now? Yes, as the golem base life is fixed, a bonus of 20% is always going to give the same amount. However, a bonus of 20% is only going to give 20 hp if the golem's base life is 100, which only effects the Clay golem.
Now, we're debating this based off some person posting on the battle.net forums. For all we know, he's completely wrong and is misunderstanding it just like you suggested.
But, with this game, who -knows- what could possibly be broken. If anybody could actually check and see if this is true, it would be wonderful.
The bone armor/wall example was given because of how it is currently bugged. The original poster speculated that the summoned syngeries were likewise bugged.
Why Golems suck? - Zath - 08-17-2003
Fire Golem base life in normal difficulty from MPQ files: 313
Actual life of L1 Fire Golem in normal difficulty with L1 Blood Golem (+5% life) prerequisite in game: 328
Actual life of L1 Fire Golem in normal difficulty with L2 Blood Golem (+10% life) prerequisite in game: 344
313+5=318!=328
313+10=323!=344
Case closed. There is no problem with Golem life calculations except any confusion arising from how their life bonuses stack. My apologies if I did not make that explicitly clear.
Why Golems suck? - Ruvanal - 08-17-2003
Actually there is a major bug in the internal (DLL) formula that is being used to display the life of minions on the skill screens. For most of them they are not correctly generating the amount of life to show the player on the character screen. The skills are however generating the amount of life correctly for what will actually be getting used in the games actual play. For example check out how badly that the necro skeletons and skeletal mages life is being displayed verses what teh game actually uses in this thread.
http://www.theamazonbasin.com/d2/forums/in...3&t=29043&st=15
While the problem with inncorrect life values is very bad with the skeletons, it still is happening to some degree with most of the "monsters" that have a complex life calcuation to display to the character. This does not mean that the life that is actually being used in the game for the monster is not being correctly handled though. See my testing example in that thread concerning the life of the skeletons.
For the case of the synergy that is applied to the Bone Armor skill; in the skills.txt file the amount that is actually set up for the skill is a straight addition and not a percentage as the character screen is indicating. The error in this case appears to be a matter of using the wrong description string (showing +X% intead of just +X) for the skill display, not the value that is calculated to show as the amount to be absorbed.
With the amount of skill points available to be spent, this can be good that the 'synergy bonus' is better than spending skill points on the skill itself. Putting most of the points into Bone Wall or Bone Prison will allow them to have good durations while still giving the necro a good defensive armor of indefinate duration. For balance though the bonus might be better at +10/level instead of the +15/level as it is currently.
Why Golems suck? - kier - 08-18-2003
I'm sooo annoyed with blizzard, they have wrecked the nec, he is now as boring as a sorc, well, not quite ;)
I have re-made my summmoner nec so that he summons 132 summons, a vast majority of them skellies (I'll post a screenshot of him 1 day with a full army, It's very impressive), yet thanks to blizzard summons have been nuked to oblivian. They are terrible, revives are lame, even skelentons are lame, and now He'll summon less than 100 monsters.
Golems, well, in the current patch they are ok. You max a golem, generaly people choose a blood or iron, get golem mastery highish and summon resist highish, give the nec curses and corpse explosion and you have an ok build, but again, golems suck in 1.10.
Yes, you can now make great fun bone necs, that everyone will make, along with elemental druids, with maybe a few sparkie/foh palas, but come on!!! OK, so 132 summons is extreme, and it does cause lag, but that is the most spectacular display I've seen on diablo2 LOD.
Flame, over and out.
Why Golems suck? - Lileofavelion - 09-26-2003
I guess my reply in this topic
http://www.lurkerlounge.com/forums/index.p...t=ST&f=9&t=1775
is more appropriate here.