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+--- Thread: 1.10s Strafe question (/thread-10123.html)
1.10s Strafe question - Nicator - 10-10-2003
In 1.09, there's a nasty feature were only 1-arrow per attack hits a monster. Being myself an old strafazon advocate, I learned to live with it.
But I'm noticing a different behaviour in 1.10s:
1. A large group of monsters die faster when they're aligned with the strafe attack than when they're spread.
2. Monsters get a knock-back more than once on the same strafe attack.
So, things have changed and returned to pre-1.09, or the screen graphics and/or my eyes are telling me things that aren't true?
1.10s Strafe question - Ruvanal - 10-10-2003
Nicator,Oct 10 2003, 01:18 AM Wrote:In 1.09, there's a nasty feature were only 1-arrow per attack hits a monster. Being myself an old strafazon advocate, I learned to live with it.Well I know that what you are referring to in v1.09 and strafe was a bad myth, I had tested it. You could get multiple arrows from a strafe burst hitting a single target. There did appear to be some sort of problem with its to-hit chance though.
http://www.theamazonbasin.com/d2/forums/in...showtopic=10401
Anything that ended up correcting for the to-hit problem would put the skill back into a hitting pattern like you were used to seeing in the earlier versions though.
There is another more serious problem with the v1.10 strafe though, listed in this thread.
http://www.lurkerlounge.com/forums/index.p...ltipleshotarrow
1.10s Strafe question - Zath - 10-10-2003
My guess is that NextDelay is killing Strafe...
http://www.theamazonbasin.com/d2/forums/in...showtopic=31932
1.10s Strafe question - Nicator - 10-10-2003
From your links/replies and my observations I can conclude:
1. Current strafe damage is, by mistake, the same ¾ as multiple shot because the game is taking the same line.
2. Although it looks like, there is no just 1 arrow per target damage on a multiple strafe attack. However, the target wonât receive new damage from a missile before 4 frames, no matter the AR or ITD. If the NextDelayâs fourth frame is included it can explain why a 1.09 8/2 3-missiles strafe attack on a single monster hits just once. The chances to hit remain as long as not inside the 4-frames NextDelay window.
3. This explains why targets get knock-back several times on a multiple 8/2 strafe attack: First missile hits, second missile misses, third missile misses, fourth missile hits, and so on. Also explains why monsters aligned with the strafe attack die faster than when theyâre spread: If 10 monsters exactly aligned, thereâs a chance (given by the to-hit-formula on the same 8/2) that the first one will be damaged by missiles 1, 4, 7 and 10. Surely some will see 40% arrows hitting, while others will see 4x damage per attack.
Taking into account the observations and NextDelay effect, I can ask: Will other sources (players) of missile attacks, using multipleshotarrow and multipleshotbolt or not, be ignored if inside the 4 frames NextDelay?
Edited: Answered here.
1.10s Strafe question - Ruvanal - 10-10-2003
See my reply in the thread that Zath linked to. The way that Stafe was set up work in v1.09 is not the same as it is set up to work in v1.10.
1.10s Strafe question - Nicator - 10-10-2003
I read your article and Zath's, at AB, before starting this thread:
Ruvanal, AB, Jul 22, 2002
Quote:Strafe.
I see from some digging at old posts and the guides that there is a misconception on the missiles that are generated with Strafe. The claims are that the extra missiles that are generated by the presence of minions, hirelings, decoys and such are phantom missiles that do not hit. All the missiles from the Strafe volley are real and can hit, but there is another more troubling bug with the skill that has lead to this false belief. I did not see any of the reports on how this testing was done to see where the errors actually came from, since the original posts have been deleted.
Test set up.
Changed zombies to have 150 life, 100% physical resistance (physically immune), 0% resistance for the other attributes, set their damage regeneration to zero. Equipped the test amazon with a charm the delivered 50-fire damage (the only non-physical damage on her). She was already equipped with a charm that gave 100% chance of deadly strike (for the spark effect).
Observation from attacking zombies using Decoy and Valkyrie to get 2 extra shots in. It is possible to kill a single zombie in a three-arrow volley of strafe; all arrows can do damage. But there does seem to be something broken with Strafe none the less. The amazon was showing as having a 95% hit rate (zombie mlvl 1, amazon clvl 32 with an attack rating of 1764 using strafe), but about 1/2 of the strafe arrows were consistently missing stationary targets (engaged with the Valkyrie or Decoy). This last resulted in only about 10% of the tests on a single target actually hitting for all 3 arrows in the volley (which is close to consistent with 0.5^3=0.125). Also it was not a case of every other arrow missing as I could at times have every arrow hitting or only 1 or 2 when testing in large groups that would have 6+ arrow salvos. So while all the arrows can do damage there appears to be a problem with the arrows hitting with the chance that they should be.
What this translates to is that while all the missile are real and can hit, they only have a chance-to-hit that is about half of what is should be. This chance-to-hit being so low is what is making this skill less than what it was before and is giving the illusion that some of the missiles are phantoms.
Strafe.
and Zath, AB, Oct 10, 2003
Quote:I know Ruvanal's original test was performed in v1.09d, but I have checked the MPQs and it seems like nothing has changed in this respect.
While I accept your observations there's one thing in your test you didn't mention: Attack speed. Assuming NextDelay 4 frames window, 2 out of a 3 and 4 missile volley can hit if a 4-frames strafe, and only on those two chances-to-hit should be analyzed.
Besides that, in your very first thread, there was this reply:
TrueMuppet, AB, Aug 16, 2002
Quote: Hm. Maybe we need to go back to square one with Ruvanal's Strafe testing - I performed a similar experiment and could not duplicate his results or anything that'd prove the existence of a flat-out 'Strafe has lowered / bugged chance to hit' phenomenon.
Test setup: Old strafe testazon I had around: lvl 75 Zon, 300 DEX, roughly 1700 AR; single 6 fire dmg charm to visually verify hits; no skills except 7 points in strafe, 20 in Valk & Decoy. Equipment: 1.) Ballista of molasses (-20 IAS, to achieve as slow as possible strafe speed); 2.) Ballista of molasses w/ ITD (to test whether the lowered CtH, if it existed, was AR dependent); 3.) Ballista of molasses w/ +100 AR / cLvl; +10% AR / cLvl (achieve ITD by hugely blown up AR, to test whether results would differ from 'plain' ITD)
Opponent: Hell Zombie set to 100% physical resist, otherwise unchanged.
CTH according to the lying char screen: 85% with weapon 1 & 2, 95% with weapon 3.
First round of testing immediately revealed that there is no flat CtH reduction - single target strafe (i.e. one arrow) against normal attack; 100 shots each.
Strafe hits: 81
Normal attack: 88
Well within the parameters of what should happen.
Same picture strafe against 3 targets (no valk & decoy), 100 strafe cycles (single click each time):
Average number of hits per cycle: 2.42; '1 out of 3' were few & far between, didn't get a single '3 misses' cycle.
So far, so good. Strafe is working as advertized. Got another single target & added Valk to the mix:
2 arrow strafe against 1 opponent, 100 shots:
Average number of hits per cycle: 1.46
Two blanks this time, with 73% average CtH straddling the line between 'number of shots too low' and 'something's fishy here.
Added decoy, pretty much same picture - 2.15 average hits now against a single.
Where the weapon and ias was established: a 18/5 strafazon. Therefore, no NextDelay 4-frames window is applied and an explanation for the different results on both tests.
Quote:The way that Stafe was set up work in v1.09 is not the same as it is set up to work in v1.10.
I accept it, and accepted the 3/4 damage because that bug. However, I'm not aware of anything against NextDelay on 1.09's strafe, and truely a target's 4-frame immunity fits well, both in 1.09 and 1.10s, explaining strafe missiles' behaviour.
Therefore my conclusion regarding target's memory and a single strafe attack (up to 10 missiles):
5 frames and slower strafe: All missiles will be checked by chances to hit;
4 frames strafe: 1 missile will go unchecked after an effective hit;
3 frames strafe: 1 missile will go unchecked after an effective hit; and,
2 frames strafe: 2 missiles will go unchecked after an effective hit.
Another thing I didn't mention: It seems, from my experience, that the angle made by the strafazon and the target(s) has something to do with the chances to hit and/or pierce. I can't explain it but it looks like I get better results when attacking to 0, 180, 90 and 270 degrees.
1.10s Strafe question - Ruvanal - 10-11-2003
The test character that I had used had a couple of hundred or more IAS from some previous use for something else, so it should easily have been in one faster (less than 4) frame rates for the testing (used only bows, not crossbows). I imagine that if I had checked the actual speed, the Strafe cycling would have been at 2 frames.
Quote:Therefore my conclusion regarding target's memory and a single strafe attack (up to 10 missiles):Since I had some 3 arrow Strafe volleys that would have all 3 arrows generating hits that would preclude any of the cases that you listed there wherein one of the arrows hit and would end up stopping a successive arrow from being able to hit at all. If Strafe had been using a missile that had a NextHit, NextDelay factors on it; I would never have been able to get 3 hits out of any of the 3 volley runs. This in turn effectively precludes Strafe from having used one those missiles in the v1.09 game.
5 frames and slower strafe: All missiles will be checked by chances to hit;
4 frames strafe: 1 missile will go unchecked after an effective hit;
3 frames strafe: 1 missile will go unchecked after an effective hit; and,
2 frames strafe: 2 missiles will go unchecked after an effective hit.
I had opted for the fast speed to help eliminate problems from a monster (zombie) from moving the position too much through an entire Strafe cycle. I was also looking for the posibility of missile overlap (i.e. the NextHit, NextDelay stuff) possibly being a part of what some players were experiencing. I was well aware of how these factors were effecting some of the missile attacks such as Nova, even though most players/modders had never even been aware of them in the game at the time.
1.10s Strafe question - Nicator - 10-11-2003
Quote:Since I had some 3 arrow Strafe volleys that would have all 3 arrows generating hits that would preclude any of the cases that you listed there wherein one of the arrows hit and would end up stopping a successive arrow from being able to hit at all. If Strafe had been using a missile that had a NextHit, NextDelay factors on it; I would never have been able to get 3 hits out of any of the 3 volley runs. This in turn effectively precludes Strafe from having used one those missiles in the v1.09 game.
Yes, I agree. 3 out of 3 takes NextDelay out of the answer, in 1.09. However, you must remember that True Muppet had different results, where his effective hits were closer to the screen CTH. You wrote that only about 10% had a 3 out of 3. While the evidence supports a NextDelay effect, only this observation supports a 50% chance to hit from another source.
In my conclusions I made it clear that it's impossible to get more than 50% effective hits from several missiles on a single target, because NextDelay.
Ruvanal, AB, Jul 22, 2002
Quote:What this translates to is that while all the missile are real and can hit, they only have a chance-to-hit that is about half of what is should be. This chance-to-hit being so low is what is making this skill less than what it was before and is giving the illusion that some of the missiles are phantoms.
And you wrote about that same 50%. Of course, it can be that 1.09's strafe had a 50% CTH as 1.10s' from different sources, but it's unlikely because, if my memory works fine, 1.09 strafe's bug comes from using the lines assigned to Multiple Shot and, if no TimeDelay all Multi arrows would have been checked as in previous versions.
1.10s Strafe question - Pren - 10-11-2003
Wow, from this thread, strafe is unbelievably broken.
Bolty, if you end up seeing this, are you reporting all of the bugs we find directly to blizzard, or only the really serious ones like the multiplicitive-/death effect on item effects bug and other stuff?
1.10s Strafe question - Nicator - 10-12-2003
True, Strafe isn't what it used to be but this comes from some game versions ago.
Ok, this is somewhat off-topic but, Strafe is still my choice mainly because some tactical issues:
1. If several monsters in line, there's a real chance to, on a single Strafe attack, make up to 4x damage on some of them.
2. Both the mercenary and the valkyre usually wander around and wake up monster groups when I'm engaged with another(s). Strafe missiles alert me of their presence, number and direction even before they're inside my 800x600 screen.
3. I didn't give much importance to knock-back in earlier versions, but 1.10s' monsters are so fast and lethal that it isn't uncommon to be attacked from 2 opposite angles at the same time. Strafe and knock-back allow me to keep the fire on the front line (mercenary and valkyre engaged in melee) and protect my back at the same time. AFAIK, only Act bosses are knock-back immune.
4. Sometimes my melee army and my missiles aren't enough to hold the ground against several groups attacking from several directions. Strafe missiles tell me where not to retreat.
5. On a fast 8/2 multizon and a medium/large monster group approaching at full speed against me, if the volley misses the front line attacking enemy I have to wait 8 frames to try to knock-back him, while an 8/2 strafazon has another chance to stop him after 2 frames.
6. My experience tells me that Multi-Shot makes more damage/time over medium/large groups, and that the defensive attributes on the skill rely on the the ability to kill the enemies on the firing direction before enemy groups coming from another directions reach me. Strafe, on the other hand, will usually make less damage (even if Blizzard fixes the 3/4 missile damage) but allows me to hold a position better than Multi-Shot because the ability to fire over any direction. Therefore, it isn't the chance to kill faster what moves me, but to control large and tough groups, holding the ground over larger periods of time without risking deaths.
1.10s Strafe question - Raziel - 10-14-2003
Hmm i'm still looking for consensus on this.
I'd love to see someone mod the game and point Strafe at a missile without a NextDelay... whether that would fix it... and more importantly.. when was Strafe broken? 1.09?
(Not only is Strafe being 3/4'ered in damage, but it's being NextDelay'd also. Lame.)
1.10s Strafe question - Nicator - 10-14-2003
Quote:and more importantly.. when was Strafe broken? 1.09?
Yes, 1.09 at the very least. Although I noticed a damage drop back to v1.08. I must add that I hardly do tests, but I play almost all areas several hours a day so when something changes I just notice it.
About 1.10s Strafe, I see that using knock-back is enough to keep the enemies away. I don't care that much if the engagement lasts some time, as long as I don't take hits. But I haven't developed the mouse-speed to do the same when using Multi-Shot because the increased speed in monsters coming from several different directions.
1.10s Strafe question - ak404 - 10-28-2003
Of course, when you invest 20 points in strafe, you expect to kill them...faster. Personally, I liked the way Strafe worked in v1.03.