Quote:As usual, your links show little to nothing to support your case. How do you suppose Mr. King achieves his goal? By instructing readers to get 'background' information about other players before the game, or by telling them how to interpret the moves they make during?

Quote:Here they are conveniently summarized by ( J. Neil Schulman);

1. Allow for disagreement.

2. Punish people only for the bad things they've already done.

3. Live and Let Live.

Quote: . . . let me point out that the review doesn´t mean predict what your specific opponent would do.

Quote:Are you sure you haven't confused "America" with "Ayn Rand"?

Quote:No. The United Nations Convention Against Torture standard is "severe mental or physical pain."

Quote:Clearly, if someone has information you want, and he doesn't want to give it to you, you are going to either 'force' it out of him or do without. Saying 'pretty please' isn't going to do it.

Quote:Were they POWs, they would have immunity. But, many of those captured in the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq fail to meet the criteria for being POWs, and therefore are covered under civilian law.

Quote:Now that's a strange remark, if you think about it. You think that people in a military uniform have more Human Rights then others? Does that mean that all Americans with a weapon and not in the army should be considered 'unlawful' combatant, if some enemy military force would set foot on American soil? And what happened the right of civilians to remain silent, because "... anything you say, can and will be used against you"?

Quote:No. The United Nations Convention Against Torture standard is "severe mental or physical pain." It also bans "cruel, inhuman or degrading" treatment. There are plenty of interrogation methods, whereby you "force someone to do something against their will" by giving up information, that are neither torture nor otherwise banned.

Quote:In other words, the country club standard is required.

Quote:Please, Occhi. The debate is nothing to do with the UN imposing "country club" values on the US. It's to do with the US torture of terrorists, which --- I remind you --- is illegal under US law.

Quote:Occhi drives too fast.

Quote:You hit the nail on the head with your comment.

Quote:IF it were that simple, the charges would have already been written up, don't you think?

Quote:You hit the nail on the head with your comment. It comes down to the 2002 Rumsfeld / Justice department discussion...

Quote:Maybe Chrysler won't need to advertise, since it might be that a Chrysler/Dodge electric or hybrid's will be handed out by the thousands in government transportation programs. Or, perhaps, his plan for change will obsolete the automobile, and deliver us all to the sophisticated, urban, high rise, high density housing with mass transit hubs.

Quote:The Eighth Amendment of your Constitution includes torture, of course. However, it applies only to people on American soil (regardless of nationality, btw). For situations outside the USA there is section 2340A of Chapter 113C of USC 18.

Quote:The Bill of Rights does apply to everyone on US soil, but I would argue that some constitutional rights only apply to citizens of the US, or those in the process of becoming citizens. Since immigration is an administrative action, the Supreme Court has ruled in the past that Congress has nearly full authority to regulate immigration without interference from the courts. So, indefinite incarceration, or deportation to the nation/prison of US choice is also an option for illegal aliens on US soil.

Quote:The Justice Department memo I referred to was a discussion between them and the DOD on the limits of presidential power in the event of a National Security threat. By precedence, the president has in the past suspended individuals constitutional rights, and has set aside sections of USC in the interests of national security. In fact, I believe one intention of the memo was to warn the DOD on the exact boundaries of the law to prevent them from straying over the line.

Quote:I see a great deal of discussion along these lines. Would you do me the courtesy of citing the law in question, rather than a general principle?

Quote:'Twas the "country club" reference that drew my ire. Let's make no bones about the fact that the US has engaged in torture.

Quote:Hmmm, well, I guess I've been tortured too then. But, never while in custody, just by the school bullies, assorted riff raff, and my 10th grade gym teacher. Oh, and I guess I should count various project managers who kept me awake for over 96 hours around deadline crunch times. I must have grown up in an era and area where people were made a little tougher.

Quote:It was here that the most intense interrogation occurred, led by three experienced CIA interrogators, all over 65 years old and all strong and well trained. There were the “emirs.” Although of course they never revealed their own names, I gave them names by which I could refer to them, all beginning with ‘Abu’. I think that ‘Abu Captain’ was of South American origin, whereas ‘Abu Hanan’ was perhaps of Moroccan origin and ‘Abu White’ was of Eastern European descent.

As the interrogation again resumed I was told by one of the “emirs” that they had received the green-light from Washington to give him “a hard time”. They never used the word “torture” and never referred to “physical pressure”, only to “a hard time”, I was never threatened with death, in fact I was told that they would not allow me to die, but that I would be brought to the “verge of death and back again”.

Apart from when I was taken for interrogation to another room, I was kept for one month in the cell in a standing position with my hands cuffed and shackled above my head and my feet cuffed and shackled to a point in the floor. Of course during this month I fell asleep on some occasions while still being held in this position. This resulted in all my weight being applied to the handcuffs around my wrists resulting in open and bleeding wounds. The cuffs around my ankles also created open, bleeding wounds. [Scars consistent with this allegation were visible on both wrists as well as on both ankles.] Both my feet became very swollen after one month of almost continual standing.

Initially I was interrogated for approximately eight hours each day. This gradually became less until after one month it was about four hours each day.

For the interrogation I was taken to a separate room. The number of people present varied greatly from one day to another. Other interrogators, including women, were also sometimes present along with the ‘emirs’. A doctor was also usually present. If was perceived not to be cooperating I would be put against a wall and punched and slapped in the body, head and face. A thick flexible plastic collar would also be placed around my neck so that it could then be held at the two ends by a guard who would use
it to slam me repeatedly against the wall. The beatings were combined with the use of cold water, which was poured over me using a hose-pipe. The beatings and use of cold water occurred on a daily basis during the first month.

In addition I was also subjected to ‘water-boarding’ on five occasions, all of which occurred during that first month. I would be strapped to a special bed, which could be\ rotated into a vertical position. A cloth would be placed over my face. Cold water
from a bottle that had been kept in a fridge was then poured onto the cloth by one of the guards so that I could not breathe. This obviously could only be done for one or two minutes at a time. The cloth was then removed and the bed was put into a vertical
position. The whole process was then repeated during about one hour. Injuries to my ankles and wrists also occurred during the water-boarding as I struggled in the panic of not being able to breathe. Female interrogators were also present during this form of
ill-treatment and a doctor was always present, standing out of sight behind the head of bed, but I saw him when he came to fix a clip to my finger which was connected to a machine. I think it was to measure my pulse and oxygen content in my blood. So they
could take me to breaking point.

After each session of torture I was put into a cell where I was allowed to lie on the floor and could sleep for a few minutes. However, due to shackles on my ankles and wrists I was never able to sleep very well.

The harshest period of the interrogation was just prior to the end of the first month. The beatings became worse and I had cold water directed at me from a hose-pipe by guards while I was still in my cell. The worst day was when I was beaten for about half
an hour by one of the interrogators. My head was banged against the wall so hard that it started to bleed. Cold water was poured over my head. This was then repeated with other interrogators. Finally I was taken for a session of water boarding. The torture on
that day was finally stopped by the intervention of the doctor. I was allowed to sleep for about one hour and then put back in my cell standing with my hands shackled above my head.