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+--- Thread: Warlocks Getting Buffed (/thread-6406.html)
Warlocks Getting Buffed - Drasca - 05-11-2005
KiloVictor,May 10 2005, 03:26 PM Wrote:The idea of an escape mechanism is one really good example of this. A 'lock that is properly prepared (i.e. has the right pet out at the moment) has a bagful of tricks to escape a given situation. A 'lock caught unawares is easy pickings, which IMO is how it should be. Why should warlocks have any better escape tools than any other class?
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I'll repeat what I said to MJ. The enemy won't let you prepare. What can a warlock do on rez? Fear and run if someone doesn't target you for a powerul stun, fear, or snare.
Any abiltiy to get out of snares? No. Break or resist stun? No. Shield? Heal? No. No. Cover distances in short times? No.
These aren't escape tools. We have talentless no escape tools, only a talent costly very weak snare.
Sacrifice? You think the enemy's going to wait 10 seconds? Warlock pets disappear from regular felsteed riding. Someone sap you, stun you, snare you, dispel you, what then? Sacrifice? That's not an escape tool. That's an act of desperation.
You won't get the fear off while a rogue is sprinting off in all directions around you either. Line of Sight simply kills.
Warlocks are not on par. The chances of having a voidwalker out at all times before PvP battle are too slim. Our pets disappear by simply traveling around. That alone disrupts any theory that warlocks are on par.
Lissa's got it right. Anyone with half an ear to general chat, or fora know what classes are 'easy pickings'.
Oh, and Shamans EB/FS... or just kick everyone's ass. That works.
Watch out for enemy warlocks with felhunters out too, they'll devour soul link. Have trash buffs Underwater breathing and detect invisibility up. It helps.
MJ: Warlock PvP rank 3 trinkets have 5 minute cooldowns too.
Warlocks Getting Buffed - Drasca - 05-11-2005
savaughn,May 10 2005, 08:22 PM Wrote:Fear+Seduce+DoTs are pretty much a death sentence. [right][snapback]76895[/snapback][/right]
What kind of lame opponents do you fight?
DoTs are easily removed though dispel and cleanse by priests and pallies. Ice Block/Wall (not sure of name) by frost mages. Warriors will just laugh and shrug off the damage while they mortal strike, shield bash, or simply crit your cloth rear with 800 damage hits all the while breaking out of charm/fear with their bloodrage, berserk, and other anti fear methods or might even intimidating fear you and charge/intercept.
Forgot if feign death / disengage remvoes dots or not. They'll match your dots with drain shot or venom sting and a pet, so that's no easy victory using the 'good ole' charm.
Rogues? You won't get to fear them if they have sprint. Seduce, maybe if she was invisible to begin with. Mid battle, he'll blind powder you and kill your pet.
This doesn't even consider the anti-fear/charm trinket or WotF.
Am I missing any classes? Seduce is universally considered folly in warlock pvp circles for actual battle. There are uses in PvP but... its nowhere near an 'i win button' or even a 'marginally effective' button
Warlocks Getting Buffed - Drasca - 05-11-2005
mjdoom,May 10 2005, 08:59 PM Wrote:As I see it MF is completely worthless in an escape situation because you can't be running and flaying at the same time. [right][snapback]76903[/snapback][/right]
If you've already invested in Mind Flay, you'll have the tier 1 chance to stun with shadow spells talenta s well. Any priest with shadow will have that tier 1 Blackout talent. So not only MF slow the enemy whilst they approach or run away, you get a good chance to stun as well. Shadow priests consistently stun when they get to use repeated MF/ SW:P. In that time, you may bubble/scream/heal or dash.
MF is sick :angry:
Warlocks Getting Buffed - Raelynn - 05-11-2005
savaughn,May 10 2005, 09:22 PM Wrote:So, do me a favor and stop for a second. Take a look at this argument. Fear is an exceedingly powerful PvP tool that I've personally used to kill people in PvP. Fear+Seduce+DoTs are pretty much a death sentence. What you are arguing is that situationally, fear is less useful. True.
That's true for every single escape mechanism in the game. And Warlocks have more than many classes.
Various people in this thread have made sweeping generalization after generalization about how every class has an escape mechanism except warlocks, and then when shown how warlocks have as good if not better escape mechanisms than most (Mages and Rogues are kings of escape and exceptions to the rule), proceed to quibble how they aren't really escape mechanisms because they don't work all the time. NO ONE's escape mechanisms work all the time. My priest LAUGHS at frost nova ever since I built a self-cast dispel magic macro. I can make far better cases for hunters and warriors and no one has it worse for escape mechanisms than slow slogging paladins.
There are 9 classes in this game. Two of them have great escape mechanisms. Warlocks are on par with the rest but a bit more situational. If someone attacks you, no, the odds are you aren't getting away. You have to fight them. If they are higher level or have more numbers, you're probably going to die. That's the nature of 1:1 PvP in this game by design, even if you don't like it and think everyone should have an infallible "I win" button.
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My complaint is not the fact that we "don't have escapes". My complaint is every method we have is in some way tied to something. We don't have an escape chance spell that is universally available and instant cast. Every method that people claim as an escape depends on some factor. Sure there are a bunch of them, but they aren't truely escape mechanisms if we have to rely on a situation. What other class has to be prepared beforehand to cast their escape spell (barring reagents)? As far as I know, warlock is the only class where the supposed escape spells require either a large talent point investment or a specific pet out. With changing pets being far from simple and having such a high cost, that's not a very good escape either.
The generality I give is more the truth than just saying that warlocks don't have an escape. I agree that there are many different individual spells that can help a warlock escape. The problem is more that the only one that's always available is fear, and there's been enough talk as to why that doesn't work.
Warlocks Getting Buffed - Raelynn - 05-11-2005
mjdoom,May 10 2005, 09:59 PM Wrote:You are juxtaposing two situations here and I'm not sure how much you are agreeing with me and how much not...
I will agree very easily that MF is a wholly better snare when fighting an opponent. The damage and slowing effects are certainly better and there is no argument there. But you go on to make points about running away (and a lot of the discussion here is centering on escape mechanisms). As I see it MF is completely worthless in an escape situation because you can't be running and flaying at the same time. This is entirely synonymous with the warlock arguments that HoT is worthless because it can't be cast on the run. In this case CoEx is better because at least you can cast it and start running. Our only snare cannot be used while running.
So there are two discussions here. The relative merits of MF and CoEx show that MF is wholly superior when fighting. CoEx is superior to MF in any case where you are trying to escape. Even if it's not a great snare (which I can agree that it is not) at least you still have something.
Take an equivalent case where a priest and warlock get surprised. I get one shot to hit Psychic Scream. If it is resisted or otherwise stopped outright I am done for. There is no way for me to put space between myself and my opponent to make good use of MF. The warlock has the disadvantage of a cast time on their fear, but if it gets stopped outright they can at least attempt another fear or throw CoEx on to try to get some space to fight in.
In the end I think we're both in the same boat of losing our best escape mechanism with more ways to stop fear. You have more options to try after that (although not all may be useful) whereas I can try to keep myself alive long enough to run away. If I am healing and running the only way I "win" is to get to a safe place as SW:P will not kill any other player on its own. You can throw on a few more DoTs but due to lack of healing probably have less survivability in many situations (avoiding mortal strike for the moment). Either way we've both had our best escape mechanism take another hit.
- mjdoom
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Due to the number of stuns and interrupts and just general slow down of casting, anything that is not instant is not an effective escape spell. We may be able to cast several times in a row, but it requires us to be standing and casting, as opposed to the priests trying PS, while on the move away from combat. We're sitting ducks while trying to fear the opponent who has gotten the jump on us. That's why fear is not to be truely considered an escape spell.
HoT is in the same boat as well.
CoEx is an iffy one because it requires not only a talent point to get, but several more talent points to make it worth anything. The sacrifice we make by putting on CoEx is two-fold. Your snare is better and deals damage. Our snare is worse and actually takes the slot of a different curse which would be doing damage. We're down double because of that, which no one really seemed to take into account when comparing the two. As an escape, I'll give you that CoEx is better only because MF is channeled, but it's not much, and the utility overall is just lower fr CoEx.
Warlocks Getting Buffed - MongoJerry - 05-11-2005
Drasca,May 10 2005, 07:13 PM Wrote:Only in large scale engagements where individual targets don't matter. Even then its risky to STAND IN PLACE for 1.5+ seconds. Small scale (less than 5v5) and 1v1 engagements. The DR kills me
Lucky bastard gets a healer. Presence of dedicated healer completely shifts battle.
Absolutely! And the presence of a huge dps cannon who can take some hits shifts the battle a lot, too.
Quote:Try asking him how it goes solo battling, or when its just 3-5 warlocks defending all of hillsbrad against paladin, druid, priest and assorted other alliance (pre-patch obviously, when pvp wasn't rewarded). We were the only ones stupid enough to think we can solo anything.
So, you're complaining, because you can't beat an overwhelming force made up of a healthy mix of classes helping each other? I'm curious what group of 3-5 of any class you believe could beat that.
Quote:I duo'ed with a druid very successfully, but that's in part because warlocks are very easy to heal. High health pool, and limiited self healing abilities.
Exactly, they're quite good in groups.
Quote:Trying to dot doesn't work when stunned at ranged from 5 different sources, or jumped behind lines by rogues, and having no healer to make things better.
I don't know of any class that would do well when stunned at range from 5 sources or when jumped from behind by multiple rogues. Thankfully, this is true. Back to my "duh" comment.
Quote:a rogue isn't going to take advantage of a warlock life-tapping, taking himself to dangerously low hp (usually 50-70%) to regain mana, enabling rogues to one or two shot him?
You can drink, too, you know. Plus you don't have to take your life down that far before healing yourself. In PvP, you get out of combat a lot.
Quote:Mages can polly one and take care of the other.
Mages are free honorable kills if they're alone. They're better in groups where they can polly an opposing healer and then help with the dps while they stay behind partymembers, but the idea that they can "take care of the other" on their own is laughable.
Quote:Rogues essentially fight 1v1 in Multiplev1 situations whenever they can vanish away. There are other tactics too, but highly depedent on what mix you're fighting.
Rogues don't fight 1v1 in Multiplev1 situations. They're too vulnerable. They usually team together 2 or 3 on one. The idea is to kill somebody and vanish before anyone can get a dot or hunter's mark on them. As annoying as they can be, I can appreciate the teamwork it takes to pull that off.
Warlocks Getting Buffed - Tal - 05-11-2005
lemekim,May 10 2005, 07:00 PM Wrote:You can run in with Blessing of Freedom on, Consecrate, then shield and run away - and you can't stop that because shield breaks sheep, fear, stuns, anything.
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Blessing of freedom will not prevent me from being sheeped - only snared. The trick then would be to use a little coordination and hit me with a snare when I use the anti-sheep trinket. Charge broken.
But except for in large group PvP my bubble and run tactic only delays the inevitable. All my attackers have to do is follow me until my shield wears off and kill me. Something that happens all too often. :unsure:
I would be interested in hearing from the horde on how they would balance the paladin if they took away our shields. If you up our damage or defense then the warriors will scream that they're being replaced. If you up our healing abilities the horde will scream that we're priests in plate even more than they already do. Personally I would like the return of our undead skills working on the forsaken. Then we'd be wanted in PvP action. ;)
Warlocks Getting Buffed - savaughn - 05-11-2005
Lissa,May 10 2005, 06:50 PM Wrote:You don't get it. I don't want an "I win" button, I want, "I'm in over my head and time to boogie", I don't have that.So, you have three choices. Play a mage, shaman, or druid. Those are the only classes that have that. Everyone knows to dot/snare rogues at this point so not even they have this non-situational escape mechanism you're looking for.
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Warlocks Getting Buffed - vor_lord - 05-11-2005
Drasca,May 10 2005, 07:20 PM Wrote:Nope. Causing chaos, and breaking lines while your party whomps on the enemy, potentially turning the battle into a rout is just fine.
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To cause this kind of ignorant chaos, usually paladins are using consecration. That's going to put you into combat (I should have been clearer, by combat I mean combat state, meaning it is impossible to get on a mount). But Tal already covered that.
I'm not saying the shield doesn't have its uses (12 seconds of being able to heal DPS dealers while being untouchable? The Horde doesn't have something comparable). I just don't think bubble + mount is an escape from PvP.
Warlocks Getting Buffed - savaughn - 05-11-2005
Drasca,May 10 2005, 08:02 PM Wrote:DoTs are easily removed though dispel and cleanse by priests and pallies. Ice Block/Wall (not sure of name) by frost mages.I'm sorry, which priest or pally ability removes curses? And are you seriously suggesting that ice block that has a 5 minute cooldown is a trump card for your instant cast dots? Every mage I have ever seen cast ice block in the middle of PvP died the second that wall came down since they had to face a fully healed and prepped for combat target the second they came out. In multiplayer PvP, it just gives you time to kill his allies.
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Drasca,May 10 2005, 08:02 PM Wrote:Forgot if feign death / disengage remvoes dots or not. They'll match your dots with drain shot or venom sting and a pet, so that's no easy victory using the 'good ole' charm.No, they don't. I find it hysterical that you're suggesting that a hunters single sting is a match for the plague of dots a warlock can toss out or that somehow a warlock can't match a hunter pet for pet. And yes, if you dot the pet and seduce the hunter, it's pretty much an easy victory. Dot the hunter and he has no escape mechanisms (turning on aspect of cheetah in combat is a death sentence).
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Drasca,May 10 2005, 08:02 PM Wrote:Rogues? You won't get to fear them if they have sprint. Seduce, maybe if she was invisible to begin with. Mid battle, he'll blind powder you and kill your pet.Blind lasts 10s. What do you have out, an imp?
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Drasca,May 10 2005, 08:02 PM Wrote:Am I missing any classes? Seduce is universally considered folly in warlock pvp circles for actual battle. There are uses in PvP but... its nowhere near an 'i win button' or even a 'marginally effective' buttonWell I have to say this makes me happy. Considering how effectively it has been used against me (my hunter has been killed enough by warlocks seducing him, killing off the pet, and then taking him down 2:1) that if you willingly choose to discard one of your most effective tools, I'm happy with it. My warlock likes it just fine as do the ones I PvP with.
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Warlocks aren't some kind of elite gods in PvP (no one should be), but they have, hands down, the best PvP spells in the game. In 5s, a warlock can drop an inferno and enslave the resulting demon. Curse of Doom is an instant cast death sentence unless the PvP group has a mage specifically assigned to watch for it standing in the back ready to clear the curse (something I've never seen). In exchange they have some harsh penalties including the soul stone issue which I will completely agree is a problem. Warlocks and Priests are best in PvP when supported by a group and aren't as great 1:1. But that's the trade off for being as phenomenal in a group as they are. Same reason they wear those big targets.
Warlocks Getting Buffed - Quark - 05-11-2005
savaughn,May 11 2005, 09:06 AM Wrote:So, you have three choices. Play a mage, shaman, or druid. Those are the only classes that have that. Everyone knows to dot/snare rogues at this point so not even they have this non-situational escape mechanism you're looking for.
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Oh please, like Vanish worked without the DoTs to begin with.
:angry: *had Vanish fail 3 out of 4 times last night*
Vanish is the best escape skill on paper. In reality, it's the worst.
Warlocks Getting Buffed - Treesh - 05-11-2005
Quark,May 11 2005, 09:18 AM Wrote:Vanish is the best escape skill on paper. In reality, it's the worst.Eth now has vanish rank 2. I wish I would have stuck with rank 1. Rank 1 worked fantastically! Rank 2 doesn't, which is what I heard and what I feared but had to see for myself anyway.
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Warlocks Getting Buffed - savaughn - 05-11-2005
Treesh,May 11 2005, 07:26 AM Wrote:Eth now has vanish rank 2. I wish I would have stuck with rank 1. Rank 1 worked fantastically! Rank 2 doesn't, which is what I heard and what I feared but had to see for myself anyway.I've flipped stances on this. Van1 is pretty flawless so I just didn't getit. I had kept hearing about vanish not working and as I got my rogue up to the point Van2 was available I had a guildy show me van2 and have it just fizz twice in a row for no reason. I'm holding out with van1 for now. :(
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Warlocks Getting Buffed - Drasca - 05-11-2005
savaughn,May 11 2005, 08:53 AM Wrote:I'm sorry, which priest or pally ability removes curses? [right][snapback]76956[/snapback][/right]
Blessing of Freedom removes CoEx
Shadow resistence aura reduces CoA and all shadow damage by 20%
CoA, 1k damage over 30 seconds isn't enough to kill a paladin who can heal that in 2 seconds or less.
Divine Shield also removes the curses.
Quote: And are you seriously suggesting that ice block that has a 5 minute cooldown is a trump card for your instant cast dots?
A good frost mage can cast ice block 2-3x in a battle with his winter's talent ability that can reset all frost cooldowns.
Quote: Every mage I have ever seen cast ice block in the middle of PvP died the second that wall came down since they had to face a fully healed and prepped
You don't get how our frost mages use ice block then. 1v1 vs me, they use it to remove dots and cancel it.
Quote: Dot the hunter and he has no escape mechanisms (turning on aspect of cheetah in combat is a death sentence).
Fiegn death, and freezing trap at the warlock's feet.
Quote:Blind lasts 10s. What do you have out, an imp?
10 seconds? Rogues can do 2-5k damage in 10.
Quote:(my hunter has been killed enough by warlocks seducing him
I pretty much own hunters 1v1 without seduce, even with an imp. They get scared easily, and most aren't very good. Too used to PvE depending on autoshot. Not enough FD, Freeze trap, scatter shot, poison, drain shot, concussion blows, wing clip.
If a warlock closes distance, and he should, you should wing clip him.
Quote:In 5s, a warlock can drop an inferno and enslave the resulting demon.
2 seconds, 1400 mana, and it turns on the warlock within 2-30 seconds.
Enslave takse 4-8 seconds, all the while taking 300ish damage every 2 seconds from the infernal, and whatever other skills his pvp enemies are pounding on him. One concussion shot, stun, silence or other interrupt and he's done for.
Not worth it. Yet another suicidal WL ability.
Quote:Curse of Doom is an instant cast death sentence
Doesn't work pvp.
Quote:Warlocks and Priests are best in PvP when supported by a group and aren't as great 1:1.
You haven't fought good warlocks/shadow priests 1v1 then. They're sick. Along with other PvP'ers. You really get to see the difference how much mastery of class matters when watching, and participating against the best, and the mediocre. Heck, its an embarassment to see level 50 shadow priests take down level 60 warriors.
Right now, I'm particularly impressed by a level 51-52 mage named berito able to kite anyone or anything level 60 who isn't at a top skill level. I can't wait to see what kind of monster pvp'er he'll be once he's actually 60.
Warlocks Getting Buffed - Drasca - 05-11-2005
MongoJerry,May 11 2005, 02:03 AM Wrote:So, you're complaining, because you can't beat an overwhelming force made up of a healthy mix of classes helping each other? I'm curious what group of 3-5 of any class you believe could beat that.
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Who said anything about winning? We made our defense against superior numbers because we're the only ones masochistic enough to do so, and few healers wanted to fight at the time. Alliance has more characters on our server, and generally less skill on average. We fought the good fight pre-patch, and boogeyed when it became overwhelming (3-4x odds).
Quote:I don't know of any class that would do well when stunned at range from 5 sources or when jumped from behind by multiple rogues.
Paladins with immuniety shield ready, Ice block mages, rogues that can vanish, warriors with that break out of stun ability ready, mage blinking, druids beast form run (less reliable obviously, but we have a range of situations here)...
My error when using rogues plural. Usually its single rogue vs one while drinking, not multi rogue.
Quote:You can drink, too, you know. Plus you don't have to take your life down that far before healing yourself. In PvP, you get out of combat a lot.
Drinking's not always an option. Heck, 70% is healthy for a lock. I personally try not to LT that much, but I still do. Sitting down also makes you a big red target. I've sat down specifically to play bait too.
Quote:Rogues don't fight 1v1 in Multiplev1 situations.
Maybe that's just Omr, and the really good rogues I've played with. They manage to pop in and out of stealth scaring the enemy party into wasting aoe looking for him, movign their party out of position, and taking out anyone vulnerable. Quite an impressive feat to watch actually, but I suppose only the rogues I've played with do this. Obviously better in duo situations when available, but they can solo this way.
Warlocks Getting Buffed - mjdoom - 05-11-2005
Lissa,May 10 2005, 09:28 PM Wrote:You missed though that CoEx is useless if the opponent can snare you (and I can't think of a class that can't). While MF gives you damage and snare and allows you a chance to possibly win the fight when PS is resisted and/or dispelled, CoEx does little more than give a half-snare for 12 seconds and does nothing more than that. Atleast MF has a very nice secondary effect, CoEx does not.
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This is my last post about this and I'm running for the hills, but... You can't MF when running. You have never responded to this point. I spelled it out in the last post. If a warlock and a priest try to run (which we've been talking about getting away as part of this discussion) the priest has absolutely no useful snare. Even if CoEx relatively sucks to other snares it is still better than no snare last I checked. That is the simple point.
I thought I made it clear that there were two situations, staying and fighting and trying to get away....
mjdoom,May 10 2005, 06:59 PM Wrote:So there are two discussions here. The relative merits of MF and CoEx show that MF is wholly superior when fighting. CoEx is superior to MF in any case where you are trying to escape. Even if it's not a great snare (which I can agree that it is not) at least you still have something.
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- mjdoom
Warlocks Getting Buffed - mjdoom - 05-11-2005
Drasca,May 10 2005, 10:15 PM Wrote:If you've already invested in Mind Flay, you'll have the tier 1 chance to stun with shadow spells talenta s well. Any priest with shadow will have that tier 1 Blackout talent. So not only MF slow the enemy whilst they approach or run away, you get a good chance to stun as well. Shadow priests consistently stun when they get to use repeated MF/ SW:P. In that time, you may bubble/scream/heal or dash.
MF is sick :angry:
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This is a good point and recasting SW:P solely to try to proc blackout may be a good tactic for a priest trying to get away. You're going to want to keep moving at least until blackout does actually proc so MF won't work in that situation and we're talking about being surprised so you won't get the chance to MF at range as they are coming in. I'm talking about when you have been surprised and your Scream has failed for one reason or another. This won't work nearly as well against multiple enemies but could certainly save your bacon against a solo enemy. That said it is still a bit unreliable. Probably the best option (going under the assumption that scream has failed) but still not a guaranteed escape (which IMO is the way it should be).
- mjdoom
Warlocks Getting Buffed - mjdoom - 05-11-2005
Raelynn,May 11 2005, 12:28 AM Wrote:Due to the number of stuns and interrupts and just general slow down of casting, anything that is not instant is not an effective escape spell. We may be able to cast several times in a row, but it requires us to be standing and casting, as opposed to the priests trying PS, while on the move away from combat. We're sitting ducks while trying to fear the opponent who has gotten the jump on us. That's why fear is not to be truely considered an escape spell.
HoT is in the same boat as well.
CoEx is an iffy one because it requires not only a talent point to get, but several more talent points to make it worth anything. The sacrifice we make by putting on CoEx is two-fold. Your snare is better and deals damage. Our snare is worse and actually takes the slot of a different curse which would be doing damage. We're down double because of that, which no one really seemed to take into account when comparing the two. As an escape, I'll give you that CoEx is better only because MF is channeled, but it's not much, and the utility overall is just lower fr CoEx.
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Hmm, I don't understand why you guys (with the exception of Drasca who made a good point IMO) seem to want to contradict me so much. I am certainly not trying to argue that fear is an effective escape spell for warlocks. I think you have the slight advantage (when anti-fear is assumed, not otherwise) that fear can be recast faster than Scream. Sure, many times standing still for 1.5 seconds (maybe more with the universal spell timer and interrupts) is a death sentence, but at least the option is available. Still, as I said at the end we are both getting jobbed even more with that trinket.
My central argument in the post you were quoting was that MF is a better snare when fighting and CoEx is a better snare when running (even if it is crappy compared to many other classes' snares). You seem to have agreed with this point. If you want to argue with people who think fear can be chain cast to save you any place, any time then argue with those people and not with me.
- mjdoom
Warlocks Getting Buffed - Lissa - 05-11-2005
savaughn,May 11 2005, 06:06 AM Wrote:So, you have three choices. Play a mage, shaman, or druid. Those are the only classes that have that. Everyone knows to dot/snare rogues at this point so not even they have this non-situational escape mechanism you're looking for.
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You forget Sprint as well.
Likewise, you forget many things about the other classes, you have damage mitigation on the Warrior and Pally along with stuns and snares they can do to try to get away.
The Hunter has two skills that can drop them from combat, useful snares and roots that can be used and a speed buff as well.
I've just covered useful escape mechanisms for 4 of the remaining 6 classes. So why do the 2 remaining classes, Warlock and Priest, have crap for escape skills (while Priest is hit hard by Fear trinkets and other anti-fear methods, they atleast have a damage mitigation shield 100% of the time compared to the Warlock's being able to cast single target fear multiple times, but a damage mitigation shield only when they have a VW out and sac it). Simply put, all classes have some way of escaping a large percentage of the time, BUT the Warlock and Priest.
Warlocks Getting Buffed - MongoJerry - 05-11-2005
Quote:Who said anything about winning? We made our defense against superior numbers because we're the only ones masochistic enough to do so, and few healers wanted to fight at the time. Alliance has more characters on our server, and generally less skill on average. We fought the good fight pre-patch, and boogeyed when it became overwhelming (3-4x odds).
You implied in your ealier post that the reason you didn't turn back the Alliance was because the town defence was made of warlocks. My comment is that I'd ask you to choose another class that you think would have turned back the Alliance at that moment in your defence of Hillsbrad. I suspect that the answer is "none," because overall the classes are pretty well balanced in WoW. Yes, things need tweaking, but overall, the balance is quite good. If you had said that you had managed to turn back an overwhelming force made of a mixed set of classes working together, I would be worried. But you seem to take the fact that you weren't able to win as an indication that warlocks are gimped characters in PvP. That's just not the case.
Drasca,May 11 2005, 08:09 AM Wrote:Paladins with immuniety shield ready, Ice block mages, rogues that can vanish, warriors with that break out of stun ability ready, mage blinking, druids beast form run (less reliable obviously, but we have a range of situations here)...
Paladins are about the only ones who could escape this situation (which is why it's incredibly laughable that anyone here thinks that Paladins don't have an escape mechanism). Mages only have a limited shot to get away if they happen to be facing the correct way away from the enemies (unlikely) and have a group of friendlies to blink to that haven't been overrun while the mage was in the block. Otherwise, they're toast the moment the ice block fades. Warriors will just get restunned and killed. Rogues can't vanish while stunned and anyway they'll have so many dots on them that they won't be able to vanish anyway. Druids can't transform while stunned and anyway they would simply be restunned once they do transform and killed. The fact is that a character of any class, except for paladins, is vulnerable when hit with "ranged stuns from five different directions." That is as it should be (except perhaps the paladin part).
Quote:Maybe that's just Omr, and the really good rogues I've played with. They manage to pop in and out of stealth scaring the enemy party into wasting aoe looking for him, movign their party out of position, and taking out anyone vulnerable. Quite an impressive feat to watch actually, but I suppose only the rogues I've played with do this. Obviously better in duo situations when available, but they can solo this way.
I see rogues attempting to do this and I suppose if they haven't given up on the tactic, they must have some success. The thing is that I always expect the rogue whenever I drink, so for one thing I don't go all the way back to the zerg to drink. Or in a pinch, I make sure to drink near groups of town guards so that when I do get attacked, I'll have a little extra help. The danger of being a solo rogue is that it generally takes too long to take someone down unless they're already at a sliver of life due to some other source, so the rogue is vulnerable to someone dotting, crowd controling, or placing a hunter's mark on them. Some rogues intentionally do suicide missions but other than in a spot with a nearby graveyard (Kargath with its nearby graveyard is a favorite camping spot for Alliance rogues), that doesn't seem a time-efficient method of getting kills. The tactic that I have seen work well is rogue teams, though. Pairs work well, but a group of three is just deadly. They can kill someone so fast and get away so fast that's it's quite impressive. Or, even better, one rogue can sap a person who might help the intended victim, then the group kills the victim, and then if there's time the group goes back to kill the sapped person.