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LotR: RotK - Guest - 12-21-2003
whyBish,Dec 18 2003, 10:28 AM Wrote:OK, so I dare say I will be flamed for saying this, but I thought that (from the point of view of someone who hasn't read the books or seen any extended versions) that the movie came accross as B-grade, and the plot as random.Heh, you're among the few which would say that. It's how I viewed #2, so I'm not too happy about seeing #3, and why I didn't mention anything about how aweful it was, thinking that everyone would say otherwise.
I actually turned off #2 at the middle, I didn't enjoy one single moment, and the drawn out talking with the elf girl and that other guy, ugh . . .
#1 was among the best films I've ever seen, but how people can think of #2 is good at all. I don't feel like writing a coherent whine on it, and I'm sure most wouldn't be interested . . .
I should really read the books though.
LotR: RotK - Nicodemus Phaulkon - 12-21-2003
Quote:I actually turned off #2 at the middle, I didn't enjoy one single moment, and the drawn out talking with the elf girl and that other guy, ugh . . .
And with that, any qualification to your opinion just flushed itself down the toilet... :lol:
LotR: RotK - Mavfin - 12-21-2003
You must live in an expensive place, Nico. I paid 14.75 for me AND 2 10-year-old girls [My daughter and her friend](who were very quiet) and no one even had a cell phone RING, let alone talk into one during the movie. You just have to see the movie in the right place, I guess!
As for the movie, yes, they did miss a few loose ends, but I would bet they're in the extended version. Oh, and Legolas gets his good stunt sequence again. Neat.
LotR: RotK - Mavfin - 12-21-2003
Hmm. Just as I figured. We have 3 types of posters here.
A) Those who have read the book, understand the plot, and aren't so picky as to whine about what was left out. It was a 3 hr 20 minute move, it wasn't perfect, but, compared to the way many of my favorite books were murdered by Hollywood moviemakers, this was a GREAT adaptation. I liked it just as much as the other two.
B) The book purists who whined that there was too much stuff left out.
C) The Tolkien-clueless who never read the books and have no clue about the plot. "The eagles are coming!" is in RotK, and in the Battle of Five Armies. The rescue of Sam and Frodo by the eagles is again, right out of the book. At least *most* of the non-readers are forgiving. I think this movie would be the hardest for the uninitiated to watch. Too many plot threads finish here, like Denethor, Eowyn/Faramir, etc. Hey, at least they resolved Sam and Rosie. As far as the Scouring of the Shire, it would have been great in a movie for purists, but, coming AFTER the 'climactic' scene (the fall of the Barad-dur), it would have confused those who didn't read the book a LOT. (I thought we won? What's this?)
I, myself, loved it. Great movie. All are entitled to their opinions, of course. And the categorizations above are not meant to insult any of the three categories. Just to classify.
LotR: RotK - LemmingofGlory - 12-21-2003
Quote:... the coughing, cell-phone-ringing, seat-kicking, "Orlando is so cute!" masses.
People who bring BAWLING BABIES TO THREE HOUR MOVIES! WHO thinks this is a good idea? We don't honestly need "Please gag your brat" signs at the door, do we? Oh, I'd hate to be the unfortunate soul who sits next to this person and their undoubtedly "fragrant" spawn. But, no, luckily the other theater patrons and myself just had to enjoy this "miracle of life" screeching along with the Nazgul for but one scene.
Ah! but I do not regret going. If not for stupid, annoying people life would be much less interesting.
[o: *LEMMING* :o]
LotR: RotK - Mavfin - 12-21-2003
Strange. No sqalling babies when I saw the movie. My 3-month-old was at home with my wife, who has no interest in LOTR. We wouldn't have brought him to it, even if she did have interest in the movie. We do try to be considerate. My 7-yr-old wanted to come, but she's not mature enough to sit through a 3.3 hour movie. My wife, however, did express some interest when I told her they showed the Azkaban trailer before the movie, and the 10-year-olds with me were very interested.....
LotR: RotK - Selby - 12-21-2003
I find myself half-way between A and B. I thought the movie was great and is THE definitive movie set for doing the book justice. I wasn't too picky about certain things, but the "Scouring" and Saruman resolutions being left out make me a trifle unhappy. Saruman being left out annoyed me because that is important and the Scouring being left out because Peter Jackson didn't like that part of the book and never even filmed it REALLY aggravates me (so no extended DVD footage of it).
I personally felt that TTT could have been edited a bit and merging some parts of RoTK into it and adding Saruman's resolution into RoTK and I would have been a happy camper. I am very pleased that Jackson didn't wimp out and end it at the ceremony and went through and filmed the Grey Havens with the ship to the west scene and doing the final line from the book with Sam. THAT did the book more justice in my opinion than anything else filmed (essentially showing the relationship between Sam and Frodo and that Frodo may have carried the ring but Sam was truly responsible for journey actually ending on a positive note while strengthening Sam was the unlikely hero who did what he had to do and went back and carried on with his life as before).
Just my thoughts.
The wife on the other hand is in category C and I was having to constantly fill in for her why certain characters acted the way they did (Denethor's madness caused by the palantir, etc) and what was going on when it wasn't too clear.
Definitely the best of the 3 movies. Blows away TTT.
LotR: RotK - [wcip]Angel - 12-21-2003
Went to see Master & Commander last week. The guys behind us actually kicked our seats repeatedly. I mean, we all had to endure the same crappy film, but no one else bothered to kick the living crap out of the seats.
There's no excuse for that kind of behaviour. I'm still fantasising about ripping off their knee caps.
LotR: RotK - Nicodemus Phaulkon - 12-21-2003
Quote:You must live in an expensive place, Nico. I paid 14.75 for me AND 2 10-year-old girls [My daughter and her friend](who were very quiet) and no one even had a cell phone RING, let alone talk into one during the movie. You just have to see the movie in the right place, I guess!
I do; it's called Canada. Multiplex evening shows here are 13 to 17 dollars, dependant. I consider the "right place" to be my DVD player, my popcorn and my laz-e-boy.
Quote:As for the movie, yes, they did miss a few loose ends, but I would bet they're in the extended version.
The extended (read: REAL) DVD will include SIXTY FIVE (65) minutes of unreleased footage.
Have I made my point? ;)
LotR: RotK - bschultz - 12-21-2003
where did you hear/read that? source please.
LotR: RotK - whyBish - 12-21-2003
After 2nd viewing tonight:
Am I right in that the film is actually giving me what I expected, is the sailing off to the west of Frodo an implication that he is dead/dieing?
LotR: RotK - Arutha - 12-21-2003
But this is known since the FotR: the wound he took on Amon Sul will never heal. It was beyond even Elrond's powers.
All that Elrond could do is get Frodo a reprieve.
LotR: RotK - Nystul - 12-21-2003
Is the date or nature of Frodo's death published in any of the appendices or other Tolkien literature (I have no recollection of it, and don't have the references on hand)? The ending is poetic but vague. The elves and the ringbearers fade away into the sea. The elves have fulfilled their purpose on Middle Earth, and are going home. The same can be said of Gandalf. Mortals can't make this trip, but Bilbo and Frodo now can. Frodo hints to Sam that since he was a ringbearer he too may get to make the trip, but for now his place is in the Shire.
So Frodo and Bilbo get to visit the lands of the immortal. This is not how humans and hobbits "die" in Tolkien mythos. I don't recall ever reading the implications of this. Does it mean they are on their deathbeds, that they have become immortal, or just that they get to spend retirement with the gods and elves before dying normally? Whatever the case, it is a one-way trip.
LotR: RotK - Occhidiangela - 12-21-2003
Some Spoilers:
So, if you have not yet, go see the film, and Bishie, read the books! You will like them, methinks. :)
1. Yay for sparse Liv Tyler presence, the only actor besides Sean Astin in the film with American Orthodontically perfect teeth. Yay for the general exposition of imperfect teeth in the mouths of players, it is more "authentic" of the era before braces. ;) (I still find the film's Eowyn pretty and wonderful, even though Jackson almost squeezes her down to two dimensions.)
2. Paths of the Dead was . . . good enough, sad to see the Rangers and the Stone of Erech not included, but as it was done, it worked well enough.
3. OK, I can swallow Anduril being delivered to Aragorn, not the banner, but NOT BY ELROND! At least they did not send Arwen to deliver it. *barf* However, I understand why that was done too, movie wise. It passes. (UH, Arwen going cold and all that, I understand why that was done for movie explanation reasons.)
4. Too much weepy boy mouth open staring nonsense by various hobbits, which ate time that could have been spent on Denethor, Faramir and Eowyn, Saruman and Isengard, etc. It strikes me that Jackson wants to please the gay audience, (blast you Cassie Claire, you have ruined me forever! :lol: Sam will kill me if I try anything. ) and the "chick flick" audience. One of the RBD ladies advised me that LOTR was built as an estrogen fest, and yep, it is to a certain extent a "chick movie" masquerading as an action film. How about that, Jackson really does understand the current Tolkein fan base, so for that synthesis, he gets high marks. :).
5. The charge of the Rhohirrim across the Pelenor was nicely done, though 6000 appear to have turned into more. Dragons and Nazgul were good, but what up with the Craven Gondorian soldiers and archers???? That rubbed a raw nerve, TOlkein had them as braver than that. Excellent death of Witchking, excellent Eowyn and Merry pulling that off, but
DAMNIT
Theoden keeps stealing Eomer's lines! "Death" was for avenging Eowyn, whose near mortal wound by the Witch King is not given correct treatment. So as payback, Eomer gets to spear the Mamukil riding leader.
6. Faramir was heroic in the book, and Jackson screwed up the retreat from the walls, the sortie, and made Farimir into a hopeless rube, not a brave captain who many admired and who kept a retreat from turning into a rout. Bah, Faramir deserved better, and m ore backbone, than Jackson gave him, bah bah bah!
7. Gandalf with the light versus the Nazgul is right out of the book, and well done, during Farimir's retreat.
8. Good Mumakil surfing, even if it has naught to do with the book and only counts as one. :) Where was Imrahil and his mounted sortie? Where the archers taking down the oliphaunts? Nowhere . . . but I understand why the cast of characters was used as the focus. Depicting Faramir as suicidal, and his charge as "the charge of the light brigade" did not sit well. Bah again.
9. Damnit, why was there no in battle meeting of Eomer and Aragron, though a field of enemies stand between us??? Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
10. After the "you bow to no one" scene, my son turned to me and said "it's over now, right?" Hah! But he was right. The way the film was written, from that to the Sam and Rosie wedding would have been a decent end . . .
11. Denethor: Jackson buggered that one badly, as in his character's treatment. His mental acuity and wisdom is not well represented, only his despair, and his atrocious table manners. (????) Unlike some, I rather liked his fiery suicide scene, The Denethor Plunge. The treatment of all that allowed Pippin to be a bit more useful in the saving of Faramir. Gandalf whacking Denethor with a stick seemed out of place, but he was possibly losing patience with idiots by that point in Jackson's view (I know how that feels). Oh, and orcs breaching the gate . . . whaaaaaaaaaaat? OK, it allows the dead army to come in and win that fight, I guess I can deal with that.
12. Scale and distance of the Black gate, the distance from Osgilliath, to the mountain, etc, was way off, but I understand why it was done. Had to, I suppose. But, what about standing on two slag heaps and the sea of orcs around them? OK, I can live with the way "Aragorn charges for Frodo."
13. The Eye as a search light that Sam could see? Hmmmmmmmmmmm.
14. Shelob. That whole bit was very well done, though why there was light in the spider cave before Frodo brings out the light is a mystery to me.
15. Gollum was not screaming "Precious!" as he fell. Boooo, but I am being picky here. I LOVED the "Gollum fights invisible Frodo" bit. Liked the ring's letters lighting up before the great melt down.
16. A good bit of acting and camera work went into: "Frodo doing the same thing, and starting to look like, Isildur." The facial expressions and mimicry of the early film's scene were most excellent. Once again The Ring is the star of the scene.
17. The Eagles over the lava river was great, right out of the book.
18. Personally, loved the artistic license taken with the wraith-dragon teams. I thought it was a nice touch to have them mix it up that way, even if not canonical.
19. Scene at the Havens was TOO LONG! Elven boat out to sea was right out of either an Alan Lee or Jonathan Howe picture, I have seen that before. :)
20. Sam's courage generally well characterized. "And that one's for my old gaffer!" The climb up Oroduin very well done. Sam, go home? Whaaaaaaaaaaaaat? And Sam as a "sensitive new age guy?" Hmmm.
21. Minas Morgul: I thought that was extemely well done, that scene and its feel, even if not perfectly "from the book" insofar as the dragon versus a horse. (I was eerily reminded of the Dragon Lance books during that scene.)
22. Loved the entire watchfire lighting sequence. Well done, the Red Arrow was not needed, I don't care if it was not canonical.
All in all, a lot to like. We all know it is not canonical, but
Too much wasted time on weepy crap. With that complaint, I still liked the film enough to recommend it to a friend, although, Nico, your easy chair approach has much merit. They don't serve beer in American theatres, sad to say.
LotR: RotK - Oomph-aak - 12-27-2003
Since I haven't read the books in twenty years or so, I can't nitpick the plot or the "essential elements" that should or should not have been in the movie. I have to reread the books so I can answer my son's questions about certain characters and scenes. From what I can remember, I would have to agree with just about all of Occhi's points, I do remember Faramir being much more noble and brave in the book.
I enjoyed the movie for what it was, and think it was the best of the three. Peter Jackson and crew did an excellent job of making an epic movie from a set of books that I thought could NEVER be made into a movie, seeing as there is so much detail, history, exposition and backstory presented in the books that we never see in the picture. I am eagerly awaiting the extended DVD so I can have even more of the story on film, but rereading the books is my New Years resolution ( after I finish the new Gunslinger book by Stephen King, of course ).
The only thing that got me mad was that goddamned Fred Flintstone dismount from the dying Oliphaunt that Legolas did during the battle at Minas Tirith, even if it did only count as "one". Unnecessary Hollywood-Fu just like riding the shield down the steps at Helm's Deep. I don't think those details were in the books, but I'm going to reread just to make sure.
Oomph-aak
LotR: RotK - Vandiablo - 12-28-2003
It got about 2 shots of about three-quarters of a second, but Eowyn got some.
Here's what happened (book spoiler):
Eowyn was near death from her battle with the Witch-King-Now-Nazgul-Foreman. Her shield arm was badly broken from being smashed, and her weapon arm was cold and lifeless (as was Merry's) and she was unconscious. In fact, she was brought from the battlefield presumed dead. She most likely would have died, but Aragorn saved her by healing her with the help of kingsfoil (the plant that he used on Frodo in the first movie). So he did not snub her. While he was healing her, he was telling her bro Elmer, er, Eomer, that it was heavy on his heart to not be able to return the love of a fair lady... but that, really she loved him more than Aragorn. She only loved Aragorn because he was an idea, the idea of something more noble than her life in Rohan.
So she wakes up and starts her recovery process. (Hi, I'm Eowyn, and I struck a Nazgul. --Hellloooo, Eowyn...) During her recovery, the able-bodied soldiers still alive ride off to Mordor, leaving her in the House of Healing. While she's there, she meets Faramir. Now, in the movie, Faramir is a whiny incompetent boy in search of a father's love, but in the "Tolkien version" Faramir is wise, charming, self-confident and is an excellent leader of men in war and would be an excellent leader in peace (IMO). While on the sidelines, they share something in common. They wait their almost-certain doom while powerless to do anything about it. He thinks she is the most beautiful woman he's met, and admires her strength in the affairs of both women and men. He lays on the praise. She accepts it, and starts to think of herself differently... she becomes interested in matters of healing, rather than in the dealing. She and Mr. F stand on the battlements awaiting news, and soon they do it (watching, that is) while holding hands.
When Aragorn returns, she no longer has any interest in him. She and Faramir are a thing. For Faramir, her love is his happy ending... in fact it's a happy beginning for both of them-- evidently neither had ever expected to find anyone or get the chance to.
All that is summarized in the 1.5 seconds that the movie shows them standing together in Aragorn's Debutant Bash. Did you blink?
So, don't cry for Eowyn.
-V
(Currently, Eowyn is my fave character... can you tell?)
LotR: RotK - Bun-Bun - 12-28-2003
Quote:Too much wasted time on weepy crap. With that complaint, I still liked the film enough to recommend it to a friend, although, Nico, your easy chair approach has much merit. They don't serve beer in American theatres, sad to say.
Y'all need to come to Austin and the Alamo Drafthouse. Food is served to you as you watch, beer too, although that's not my tipple. There's one in Houston as well , if Austin's too far from Corpus.
I've seen ROTK three times now, and I must say it affected me more each time. My only quibbles were the oliphaunt dismount and, as you say, a bit on the weepy side for many characters. Still, one of the major themes is loss, so I suppose I can forgive PJ for bashing us about the head a bit.
My most memorable moments include the signal fires on the mountains, and the speech leading up to "Forth, Eorlingas!" Bernard Hill rules! The tavern scene at the end had a nice wordless commentary; you could see the separation that the four were feeling.
I rather hope the extended version explains more about Denethor's wackiness. I understood about the Palantir, but a Tolkien neophyte has every right to be confused.
One more nit: Merry and Pippin should have been quite a bit taller than Frodo and Sam after imbibing the Ent-draught. I didn't see any noticeable scale change on them.
LotR: RotK - Vandiablo - 12-28-2003
Yeah.
I agree, on most if not all of the 22 points.
but first some notes, for not just Occh:
Please STOP calling them "dragons". To call them that diminishes the Tragedy of Smaug. Tolkien only refers to them as "beast". They can't breathe fire, they have beaks (in the book) and in both versions Dernhelm (Eowyn) kills one with a single blow. Compare with Smaug. Please call them, uh, "those flying thingies".
Now, in my opinion, the biggest agreement with Occh I have is:
"Too much wasted time on weepy crap."
HEAR HEAR! Oh, Sam. Oh, Mr. Frodo. Oh, Sam. Oh, Mr. Frodo. I couldn't do it without you, Sam. Don't you leave me, Mr. Frodo. Oh, Sam. And then, Eowyn and her uncle went too long, too. Anyway, it was supposed to be Merry and Theo, not her. If they'd built the Merry-Theo relationship properly, it would have made sense.
My wife disagreed, said the film needed MORE weepy crap and less battle stuff. Hey, a GUY wrote the book, and the weepy stuff was kept in the right proportion (in the book).
As for "RANDOM" death scenes. So all death scenes are supposed to be predictable? Although that Elf-sentry dude at Helm's Deep, that was so random it hurt.
Ha, Sam is a "new age" guy. HAW HAW *snort*. Yeah he led his corner of the Shire into the New Age. But yeah, he might seem sensitive if you equate sensitivity with crying and the feeling that he and Mr. Frodo were on the verge of a big sloppy wet kiss. But that's not gay-- it's that Sam is basically Mr. Frodo's dog. Big sloppy wet kisses from dogs are a wholesome, family activity. (so it's okay)
Okay, now let's have the joy of commenting on the 22 points!
Quote:1. Yay for sparse Liv Tyler presence, the only actor besides Sean Astin in the film with American Orthodontically perfect teeth. Yay for the general exposition of imperfect teeth in the mouths of players, it is more "authentic" of the era before braces.
Now now. Liv Tyler, er, whatsherface, has a large percentage (50?) of Elf blood. Elves should be forgiven for having perfect teeth. Half-elves can be forgiven for straight teeth.
Quote:(I still find the film's Eowyn pretty and wonderful, even though Jackson almost squeezes her down to two dimensions.)
Yeah, she is pretty and wonderful, Eowyn's my fave char right now, and I am very pleased with the actress they chose for her. (whom I wouldn't mind squeezing...)
2, 3, agree. 4 already spoke to.
Quote:5. The charge of the Rhohirrim across the Pelenor was nicely done, though 6000 appear to have turned into more.
I noticed that too. And the "tens of thousands" from Isengard in TTT looked to be only 10,000. They shoulda adjusted their constants in their computer programs.
So, did anyone else, when the big ol' quadrupeds were coming, think that the fighter ships should wrap cables around their legs???? Just checking.
6-7 Agree.
Quote:8. Good Mumakil surfing,
Another poster here refers to that as Fred Flintstone, kungfu gratuitism. But I thought it was great -- shows what lithe and limber can do to brainless brawn.
9-22. Agree, except maybe for use of dragons, er, beasties.
Some points of my own:
Someone here posted that the book only followed the heroes, and that glimpses of the enemy scenes did not happen. Well. The conversations between two orc chieftains were detailed in the book. Technically they had Frodo locked up in their tower, but he was unconscious, so I think we can't really count that as "seen by hero" can we?? These conversations showed the basis of why almost all the orcs in the tower were dead when Sam entered. The movie showed two orcs fighting over booty and showed a bit of escalation, but it didn't make much sense.
HEY! I WANTED TO SEE THE MOUTH OF SAURON!!! I especially wanted to see Gandalf come up and grab the mithril.
My fave part of the book is Eowyn and Merry dispatching Naz One. When it happened in the movie, I wished to clap, but alas, the audience was silent. I had to beat my knees, quietly, to let my excitement flow. In the book, IIRC, the spirit of Witch-King was sucked shrieking back to Mordor, but that's not described in the chapter where E and M kill him, so ... am I going crazy?? In the movie, he just kinda died quietly.
Yet, Eowyn almost perished in the effort, and I didn't like the movie having her being so healthy. It kinda makes Faramir-Eowyn unexplainable. Maybe that's why there's no Faramir-Eowyn courtship in the movie.
I was happy with the portrayal of Grond.
Something I found annoying in TTT and RotK movies was Obvious Orders. For example, Theo says: take the women and children to the caves (several times). Unfortly, I can't remember any other examples right now, but next time I see the movie(s) they'll pop out at me again.
I just spent an hour or two rereading sections of RotK and damn it rocks. Anyone who hasn't should READ IT!
Oh, one more thing...
Quote:They don't serve beer in American theatres, sad to say.
Yes, they do. There's a theater in our area called "Cinema and Drafthouse". You sit at tables, you order before the movie, and any refills you get by going over to the bar. That was the perfect place to see "Weekend at Bernies" years ago.
-V
(Does anyone else have the urge, when the Riders of Rohan are riding, to say... to say ... "NI!"??)
LotR: RotK - Haider - 12-28-2003
No, the West is called "The Undying Lands" so dying is not an option ;)
He (and the other ringbearers like Sam (not in the movie) and Bilbo) is granted the seldom gift to live with the elves, maiars and all the others divine beings in Tolkien's version of the Paradise/Heaven.
LotR: RotK - Occhidiangela - 12-28-2003
Flying Lizards. When I read the book, I always pictured them in my head as Pteronadons, but slimy ones.
No, I did not want to say Ni to the Rohirrim, but I did have a slight urge to do that when Witch King first arrived on his flying lizard. But I was enjoying that Minas Morgul scene so much, I forgot to say "Ni!" :lol:
As to Big Sloppy dog kisses: Good point, my dog just woke me up this AM with one, makes more sense that way. ;) Sam is, in my view, Tolkeins rendering of a loyal and unintentionally brave sergeant from the Trenches of WW I. The song Annie Lenox sings at the end is, as I see it, his song, for those of us who know the books, or possibly Legloas' song "Why do the white gulls call?" It made me weep the first time I listened to the sound track the other night.
Yes, Mouth of Sauron scene would have been better.
The Naz One and his demise was a "sucked into the negative hole of nothingness" deal versus spirit soaring off to Sauron. While not canonical, it worked for me, since the Wraiths of Tolkein were so much "anti man" due to the life sucking influence of their 9 rings.
Beer in Theatres: I will take Bun Bun up on his offer, perhaps, given that Austin is closer to Corpus than California is, but I will need a cathater to sit through the movie the whole way. (I chewed bum at the theatre, it kept me in my seat the whole time.)