Phoenix,May 10 2005, 05:43 PM Wrote:As for the "ranged stun", it's a whopping 10 yards. Wow. Talk about MASSIVE!  :rolleyes: And at level 54, it last 75% as long as a level 10 Frost Nova.

And if Warlocks and Priests can complain about anti-fear trinkets, then Rogues and Paladins can complain about anti-stun trinkets. Mages can complain about anti-poly trinkets, Druids about anti-immobilizing trinkets etc. Trinkets messed up all the classes standard PvP methods. Adapt instead of complaining.
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Gnollguy,May 10 2005, 03:03 PM Wrote:I thought diminshing returns on fear went something like this, assuming it isn't broken by damage or just quits early like they do.

You cast fear, if they are feared again in 15 seconds it is diminished.  So with Trinket you get a 1 or 2 second fear before they break it, in which time you fear again for 5 seconds.  So now you stop fearing and they beat on you for 10 seconds. Now you fear them and you get the full 10 seconds now since the dimishing returns timer is reset.  As soon as it breaks you can get them with a 5 second fear again, that they could probably break with the trinket, with your DoT's still working them over and they still can't use their charm.  So you should still be able to fear them for around 15-18 seconds out of every 30 and if you let them beat on you for a bit (and since they were feared away some of that time is spent getting back to you) they won't ever be immune.

I know I haven't played with it, but the theorycraft, unless I misunderstood the diminshing returns, still makes it seem pretty usable to fight and to escape with.

Edit:  You can't mount in combat.  Sorry wasn't thinking there....
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savaughn,May 10 2005, 01:55 PM Wrote:You have fear.  Want to complain about no escape skill in PvP, please get in line behind the Paladins, Warriors, Hunters...
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Gnollguy,May 10 2005, 06:49 PM Wrote:Well not stand still, you move around you run from them so they are chasing you while the 15 second timer is running, etc.  You can get them in the wrong facing or get out of range in PvP.  I was being loose with my terms.

From the patch notes:

So I'm still not sure.  The first sentence makes it sound like what I described above, the diminishing returns timer starts when the first effect hits them.  The 2nd sentence makes it sound like the diminishing returns timer starts to run at the end of the effect of the first cast.  I love patch notes.  :)

Again I could be way off on the diminishing returns thing.  But if it works like I think it does, it isn't as bad for locks as I think they make it out to be, though against udead with a trinket it gets pretty ugly regardless.  But since their immunity is 20 seconds you are out of the diminishing returns regardless of how it works after they use that.  It also gets a bit uglier against a dwarf priest but that is a much smaller set than all undead.
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MongoJerry,May 10 2005, 02:51 PM Wrote:Mind Flay only has a 20-yard range, and the priest has to stand still to get it to work.  If the target is running away, you'll get at most one mind flay off before the target is out of range.  The only use for it as a snare is to a) slow the target down just enough so that hopefully a partymember can catch up and do one of their snares or B) slow an approaching melee character down on their approach just a little bit.  It's an ineffective attack if the priest is actively being hit, so the only time a priest can effectively spam it is if the priest is fighting a caster at close range or if enemy players are stupidly attacking someone nearby other than the priest.
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lemekim,May 10 2005, 07:00 PM Wrote:You can run in with Blessing of Freedom on, Consecrate, then shield and run away - and you can't stop that because shield breaks sheep, fear, stuns, anything.

As for Warlocks, they have a lot of escape/defense options, the biggest problem I think is that they have to be ready for it, and they require lots and lots of shards to be most effective. Healthstone, Deathcoil, Sacrifice, even Soulstone can be used as "oops" spells and help to beat someone who got the jump on you. Affliction specced warlocks can use Amp Curse + CoE to snare someone and get away from them, and a lucky Nightfall proc can absolutely destroy whoever is attacking you. Demonology specced warlocks can activate Soul Link to last much longer, and recast Voidwalker or w/e pet they want in .5 sec. Destruction warlocks don't have as many escape options, although with Curse of Shadow they can get some pretty nasty Shadowburn crits, in addition to surviving longer through above means.

With all that said, I do think Warlocks need something - maybe a castable shield similar to druids Barkskin, or a talent that reduces chance to interrupt Shadow spells (including fear).

And if all fails, there is always engineering =) Goblin Rocket Helmet = guaranteed 30 seconds of mez. Discombobulator ray to slow them down. Bombs =)
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KiloVictor,May 10 2005, 01:39 PM Wrote:Yes, but we can sac a void and casts are uninterruptible while the shield holds. And we can chain-cast fear as much as we want.

We also typically have a ton of HP, which means that we can take a fair bit of a beating while we're chain-casting fear. After the PvP trinket has been used once, fear kiting is a viable strategy for escape or for laying a whuppin' on your opponent.

No argument that warlocks are not the best at fleeing, but we have enough other tools that we can stand and fight just fine.

Kv
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Lissa,May 10 2005, 06:07 PM Wrote:Nope, the DR timer is much longer than that.  You get 3 casts, then immune for upwards of 30 seconds minimum, possibly longer (I don't have exact time, but I do know it's atleast 30 seconds).
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mjdoom,May 10 2005, 02:37 PM Wrote:That stupid trinket is just one more way to hurt priests and warlocks in PvP.  I think I don't sympathize as much because I'm getting screwed just as much (if not more in the case of no WotF, not everyone has it and you can still recast faster).  Basically we both get screwed and as a priest I have lost my one and only "oh crap" button.

Quote:Being a disc/holy priest I don't have mind flay any more but that's probably not as common if you want to PvP (consider me a glutton for punishment).  Still, flay is channeled so it is only viable as a snare if you are trying to stay and fight.  It does you no good if you are attempting to run in any capacity.

Most of my experience is with group PvP (as 1v1 is almost non-existant on normal servers other than dueling which is a different beast).  I generally try to stay near the pack because the instant I get seperated I'm dead.  The combination of my low life and lack of instant saviors (desperate prayer can maybe save me once per half hour) means that if psychic scream fails for any reason (resist, immune due to one of various reasons, stupid trinket) I'm done.  I don't know that it is much better for a 'lock, but at least you might have a chance to refear a player when they catch you 1v1 away from the main battle.  I'm just as helpless 1v1 as I am against multiple enemies.

Please understand, I've never played a 'lock and don't know for sure how hard they have it.  I must say I don't see too many 'locks out on the battlefield fighting back and forth at XR or TM or any of the other usual PvP spots.  I'm just saying that from my perspective I have some of the same issues and a shield/renew is not as useful against a human opponent as it is against your standard-issue mobs.

In the end I think this is ok though.  It probably sucks a lot more on PvP servers where you can be caught off guard more easily and more often, but I think the more prepared player will always have an advantage.  It has been admitted that a prepared warlock is very hard to kill.  If I can prepare I am also in a better situation (be certain IF is up, get a preshield on myself, etc.).  I'm not sure where it is unbalancing that some classes can't easily get away.  If anything mages just have the best set of options so we all want them.  Well, they still go down quickly if you properly surprise them (Without experience I'd guess that a silenced mage= a dead mage when caught off guard).  Still, if anything I think it should be balanced more toward not being able to easily wriggle out of disadvantageous positions (although rogues still should be able to do things like vanish, it is a central part of their skillset).  We are all more effective when we dictate the direction and pace of a battle and it should be hard to turn the tides in your favor if the other player gets the jump.  Maybe I'm just crazy...

- mjdoom
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lemekim,May 10 2005, 04:00 PM Wrote:You can run in with Blessing of Freedom on, Consecrate, then shield and run away - and you can't stop that because shield breaks sheep, fear, stuns, anything.

As for Warlocks, they have a lot of escape/defense options, the biggest problem I think is that they have to be ready for it, and they require lots and lots of shards to be most effective. Healthstone, Deathcoil, Sacrifice, even Soulstone can be used as "oops" spells and help to beat someone who got the jump on you. Affliction specced warlocks can use Amp Curse + CoE to snare someone and get away from them, and a lucky Nightfall proc can absolutely destroy whoever is attacking you. Demonology specced warlocks can activate Soul Link to last much longer, and recast Voidwalker or w/e pet they want in .5 sec. Destruction warlocks don't have as many escape options, although with Curse of Shadow they can get some pretty nasty Shadowburn crits, in addition to surviving longer through above means.

With all that said, I do think Warlocks need something - maybe a castable shield similar to druids Barkskin, or a talent that reduces chance to interrupt Shadow spells (including fear).

And if all fails, there is always engineering =) Goblin Rocket Helmet = guaranteed 30 seconds of mez. Discombobulator ray to slow them down. Bombs =)
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Gnollguy,May 10 2005, 04:24 PM Wrote:Yes, but if you stop casting before they become immune, it is 15 seconds before you get full effect again.  The idea of the timer is to stop chaining.  I quoted the patch notes in another post, it is 15 second per cast of each effect.  Even if that starts at the end of the effect (which I'm still not clear on), if you stop casting fears for 15 seconds you can get your 10 second fear again.  That stops chaining without breaking it completely, but if you don't change tactics you screw yourself.  So you can chain 2 fears, one at 10 (if they can't break it) and one at 5, then wait 15 seconds and start that over again.  If you cast one for 10, one for 5 and one for 2.5 you should still be able to wait 15 and then start over.  Now if you cast a 4th one you probably start that 15 second timer again so it will probably feel longer than 15 seconds.

Again this is based on what the patch notes say, it shouldn't be that hard to test in duel.

Edit:  After I eat I'm going to test this.
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Gnollguy,May 10 2005, 04:52 PM Wrote:I tested, I didn't test on someone with a trinket, but this is what I got.

Cast fear and started timer.  Fear lasted 10 seconds.  I cast another fear 7 seconds after fear wore off, that fear was 5 seconds.  I waited 15 seconds after that fear wore off and cast fear again, it lasted for 10 seconds. 

So the DM timer starts at the end of the effect.  So that means with trinket you should get.

Let me theorycraft outloud again.

Fear for 1 or 2 seconds before they break it.  Fear for 5 seconds while a DoT hurts them or something and you run.  You can now fear them for 2.5 seconds or wait 15 more.  I would wait since you are about 10 seconds into the battle.  You can then fear again, if you are alive, 25 seconds into the battle for a full length fear.  However the trinket timer is 30 seconds so if you time everything perfectly you will only get about 5 or 6 seconds before trinket break.  So you only get about 12 out of 30 seconds of fear in that first 30 seconds with no fear longer than about 6 seconds. 

Without the trinket I still think you are fine.  With it you have problems.  The 15 seconds after fear wears off to reset the DM timer is still a fair bit of time but you still can keep them feared for 17 or so seconds and they only get 15 seconds to mess with you.
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Gnollguy,May 10 2005, 04:52 PM Wrote:However the trinket timer is 30 seconds

Lissa,May 10 2005, 05:43 PM Wrote:You're forgetting a lot of things here...first off, while theory is nice, in practice, it doesn't work that way.  Fear takes 1.5 seconds to cast barring interruption.  With interruptions, you're looking at upwards of 3 seconds to get a fear off.  Likewise, if you try to DoT, the opponent will break out of fear very quickly as and damage in PvP now pretty much interrupts the fear state so you basically have to not do any damage to the target at all if you want the fear to last it's full effect.  Likewise, many classes have some form of spell casting silencing effect (only ones that I know don't are Pallys, Druids, and Hunters...Shamans may have something, but I don't know for sure, that's half the classes in the game depending on Talent build or what pet they have out in the case of Warlocks).  It's not hard between stuns and silence effects to keep a Warlock from ever getting a fear off.  As was noted by someone else, a defense skill has to be instant to really be a defense skill, fear is not instant and neither is seduce, this makes them poor defense skills because they can be interrupted and this is without even considering anti-fear/anti-seduce trinkets.
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savaughn,May 10 2005, 06:22 PM Wrote:So, do me a favor and stop for a second.  Take a look at this argument.  Fear is an exceedingly powerful PvP tool that I've personally used to kill people in PvP.  Fear+Seduce+DoTs are pretty much a death sentence.  What you are arguing is that situationally, fear is less useful.  True.

That's true for every single escape mechanism in the game.  And Warlocks have more than many classes.

Various people in this thread have made sweeping generalization after generalization about how every class has an escape mechanism except warlocks, and then when shown how warlocks have as good if not better escape mechanisms than most (Mages and Rogues are kings of escape and exceptions to the rule), proceed to quibble how they aren't really escape mechanisms because they don't work all the time.  NO ONE's escape mechanisms work all the time.  My priest LAUGHS at frost nova ever since I built a self-cast dispel magic macro.  I can make far better cases for hunters and warriors and no one has it worse for escape mechanisms than slow slogging paladins.

There are 9 classes in this game.  Two of them have great escape mechanisms.  Warlocks are on par with the rest but a bit more situational.  If someone attacks you, no, the odds are you aren't getting away.  You have to fight them.  If they are higher level or have more numbers, you're probably going to die.  That's the nature of 1:1 PvP in this game by design, even if you don't like it and think everyone should have an infallible "I win" button.
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Lissa,May 10 2005, 06:30 PM Wrote:And like I mentioned to Mongo, I do know how MF works, I did take a Priest to 60 in beta and was Shadow.  While you have to stand there and they have to be in range, MF beats Curse of Exhaustion hands down for snaring.  MF gets you a 50% reduction in speed, damage of between 225 and 250 DPS with full Shadow talents, and is high mana efficient.  Meanwhile, Curse of Exhaustion lowers target speed to 70% of normal (50% if you use Amplify Curse which is on a timer of about 2 minutes) for 12 seconds and does no damage and if the other player snares you, you cannot get away as a Warlock because you will be moving at 50% normal while the opponent is moving at 70% of normal.

Blizzard has made PvP so badly lopsided against Priests and Warlocks it's not funny.
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MongoJerry,May 10 2005, 03:04 PM Wrote:Anti-fear trinkets mean nothing when a warlock can just cast fear again.[right][snapback]76834[/snapback][/right]

Quote:I often team up with a warlock friend in PvP

Quote:You just have to learn the appropriate tactics to use to deal with different classes and know how to use your pets in PvP situations. 

Quote:And if you're complaining about how you lose if you're being attacked 2-on-1 or more, all I can say is, "duh."  That's the way it's supposed to be.

vor_lord,May 10 2005, 03:35 PM Wrote:Doesn't PvPing usually involve being in combat?
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mjdoom,May 10 2005, 06:59 PM Wrote:You are juxtaposing two situations here and I'm not sure how much you are agreeing with me and how much not...

I will agree very easily that MF is a wholly better snare when fighting an opponent.  The damage and slowing effects are certainly better and there is no argument there.  But you go on to make points about running away (and a lot of the discussion here is centering on escape mechanisms).  As I see it MF is completely worthless in an escape situation because you can't be running and flaying at the same time.  This is entirely synonymous with the warlock arguments that HoT is worthless because it can't be cast on the run.  In this case CoEx is better because at least you can cast it and start running.  Our only snare cannot be used while running.

So there are two discussions here.  The relative merits of MF and CoEx show that MF is wholly superior when fighting.  CoEx is superior to MF in any case where you are trying to escape.  Even if it's not a great snare (which I can agree that it is not) at least you still have something.

Take an equivalent case where a priest and warlock get surprised.  I get one shot to hit Psychic Scream.  If it is resisted or otherwise stopped outright I am done for.  There is no way for me to put space between myself and my opponent to make good use of MF.  The warlock has the disadvantage of a cast time on their fear, but if it gets stopped outright they can at least attempt another fear or throw CoEx on to try to get some space to fight in.

In the end I think we're both in the same boat of losing our best escape mechanism with more ways to stop fear.  You have more options to try after that (although not all may be useful) whereas I can try to keep myself alive long enough to run away.  If I am healing and running the only way I "win" is to get to a safe place as SW:P will not kill any other player on its own.  You can throw on a few more DoTs but due to lack of healing probably have less survivability in many situations (avoiding mortal strike for the moment).  Either way we've both had our best escape mechanism take another hit.

- mjdoom
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