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+--- Thread: Professional Farmers (/thread-5262.html)
Professional Farmers - TheWesson - 11-29-2005
Gort,Nov 25 2005, 12:09 PM Wrote:This misses the crucial element of money SUPPLY. The biggest influx of gold produced by the farmer is that dropped by NPCs. Simple example:
NPC X - spawns in Tyr's Hand, remains untouched for 3 hours then drops 12s.
NPC Y - spawns in Tyr's Hand, dies within 2 minutes and each respawn for the next 3 hours, dropping 12s each time.
X's death brings 12s into the economy.
Y's (repeated) deaths bring 90 x 12s into the economy, or 1080s = 108g.
Difference is 107g 88s over the course of those 3 hours.
Now obviously the respawn rate in Tyr's Hand has been changed, the above was artificial number to illustrate a point. The constant farming of high cash value NPCs was pushing the gold supply to insane levels and continues, albeit at a slightly abated pace. Sales on the AH etc may circulate the money but each NPC killed brings fresh cash into circulation and the relative value of items calculated against the overall supply (known as M0 in the UK treasury for example) is pushed down, resulting in the trend Kandrathe identified so eloquently.
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The mobs drop 10g 80s (which would not otherwise be in the economy). They also drop ... runecloth? blue items? occasional purple items? which would not otherwise be in the economy (and most likely get more than 10g 80s at AH).
so the overall effect is what? not extra gold chasing the same number of items. It's extra gold chasing a larger number of *certain* items. Both gold and gold sinks are created. I couldn't say really whether the gold outweighs the gold sinks or not, given that there's also some gold from vendor trash generated...
so if that gold goes largely to to *buying* the same items dropped, then overall you might see a slight deflation relative to certain items (which can drop in Tyr's Hand) and a slight inflation relative to other items (which don't drop in Tyr's Hand.)
so it's good for casuals farming areas and selling items that farmers dont farm. Bad for casuals buying items that farmers dont farm. Good for casuals buying items that farmers do farm. Bad for casuals buying items that farmers don't farm.
anyhow it's not blatantly a horrible ruin to the economy. It would seem to be introducing some weirdness in pricings though.
i can't imagine any gold farmers farming electro-lanterns. Casuals must've been farming electro-lanterns and Blizzard (rightly) nerfed the price (wrongly) too much. They should just figure out a good average salary (money per time) for each char level and do the math from there.
[edit: I suggest, humorously, that the solution to farmers only farming world drop items would be to have better trained farmers, who can raid all the high end instances and thus balance out their effect on the economy. This would result in deflation wrt a lot of purple or better BoE drops, which i suspect most players would appreciate. ]
Professional Farmers - kandrathe - 11-29-2005
Descended,Nov 28 2005, 12:32 PM Wrote:...You may have misunderstood, or taken my concerns out of context. I have no problem buying any of my mats from *players* who use their time to raise money for mounts, etc. I have a *HUGE* problem buying anything from professional gold farmers who then sell the virtual gold for real world money. And, I have a *HUGE* problem with anyone who buys virtual gold for real world money. To me, either buying or selling gold, toons, etc for real world money is tantamount to cheating. I don't want to support anyone who cheats.
To cry that people shouldn't be allowed to farm high demand, valuable resources means you've decided you don't want people to be able to choose to buy or trade for those items; there is no other way to prevent high demand, valuable resources from being farmed, other than making them less valuable or reducing the demand. No, you feel that since you want to have the option to effectively (read -- with no serious competition) gather those resources yourself, it would be better if everyone else had the rules you are imposing on yourself be imposed on them as well.
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But, how can you tell the *players* from the *professionals*? Sometimes you cannot. Therefore, often when I suspect all the available materials at the AH are being sold by professionals, I pass on the AH and farm my own. I boycott them. You might not, but then IMHO you contribute to the problem. Like, spam, or internet porn, someone keeps them in business. I just don't want it to be me.
Professional Farmers - Guest - 11-29-2005
Actually that has not been demonstrated.
As I pointed out there is a sematics issue.
We all agree that farming to sell for real life money hurts a game. It has not been demonstrated at all that hunting the most profitable loot for in game rewards is damaging at all.
Your definition of "farming" is not uniformly accepted.
Also its not that Blizz doesnt want people hunting for the most profitable loot they can. Its that Blizz wants a degree uniformity in loot by level.
If you have a problem with rolling adjustments like these you might consider not playing MMORPs.
There will always be imbalances that are adjusted as they become appearent.
Professional Farmers - fractaled - 11-29-2005
kandrathe,Nov 29 2005, 04:54 AM Wrote:You may have misunderstood, or taken my concerns out of context. I have no problem buying any of my mats from *players* who use their time to raise money for mounts, etc. I have a *HUGE* problem buying anything from professional gold farmers who then sell the virtual gold for real world money. And, I have a *HUGE* problem with anyone who buys virtual gold for real world money. To me, either buying or selling gold, toons, etc for real world money is tantamount to cheating. I don't want to support anyone who cheats.They aren't duping, I don't see why you have a *HUGE* problem with them.
But, how can you tell the *players* from the *professionals*? Sometimes you cannot. Therefore, often when I suspect all the available materials at the AH are being sold by professionals, I pass on the AH and farm my own. I boycott them. You might not, but then IMHO you contribute to the problem. Like, spam, or internet porn, someone keeps them in business. I just don't want it to be me.
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While I would never buy gold to make a game more "fun" (I'd think the game would be fundamentally flawed if that was required), but obviously other people have decided for themselves that it is a fair trade; there's nothing immoral about that.
For buyers, farmers reduce prices. And for sellers, farmers are their competition, they're all farmers. WoW is hardly so skill intesive that allowing someone to buy their elite mount or get an epic item really makes any difference. Instead of time for gold, they're paying time for dollars for gold.
Do you boycott email and the internet as well? Boycotting the AH is boycotting the medium, not the materials. Come up with a way to only buy from non-professional farmers if you want to hurt them.
Professional Farmers - Rinnhart - 11-29-2005
While the author of the article may have never encountered a farmer who actively exploited, they certainly do exist. There have been a few well known dupe bugs during WoW's short life, and there has always been a swarm of rogues who seem to speak very little english huddled amongst the buggy points like they're campfires in the dead of winter (the Maraudon zone bug is most notable).
They do what they have to do to meet their quota, and if that means destroying the game, I don't think it would stop a single one of them. It's just a job. Well, it's my entertainment. I have a huge problem with them ruining my entertainment for the sake of money.
Professional Farmers - fractaled - 11-29-2005
Rinnhart,Nov 29 2005, 05:37 AM Wrote:They do what they have to do to meet their quota, and if that means destroying the game, I don't think it would stop a single one of them. It's just a job. Well, it's my entertainment. I have a huge problem with them ruining my entertainment for the sake of money.You sound like you've had some bad personal experiences with farmers, care to share?
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Professional Farmers - Mirajj - 11-29-2005
fractaled,Nov 29 2005, 01:08 AM Wrote:You sound like you've had some bad personal experiences with farmers, care to share?
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I had a quest that should have taken me 10 minutes round trip extended to a minimum of 20 minutes/round and usually closer to 1/2 hour a quest because I had to fight off two farmers for limited spawns for kills. They were camped in the sole place I could be 24/7 for 3 months before they finally got banned. While my personal droprates suck, I shudder to think of what they found/moved in that zone while they were there.
Professional Farmers - oldmandennis - 11-29-2005
fractaled,Nov 28 2005, 09:13 PM Wrote:WoW is hardly so skill intesive that allowing someone to buy their elite mount or get an epic item really makes any difference.
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Items do make a HUGE difference. Take it from somebody who's been on the wrong end of Thunderfury a few times.
Will they make up for complete n00bishness? Usually no. But they are extremly important.
Items bought with real money throw off the balance of the game in both PVP and PVE. If everyone could just buy anything that was not BOP, the difficulty of all PVE encounters would have to assume DMF epics and HOTW on every caster, warriors with full DI gear, hunters with full BDS. And any sham/pally/warrior who felt like competing in PVP at all would be compelled to buy the hand of Rag.
These are practical reasons. The bigger reason is it breaks down the fourth wall of the game. It does make it less fun to know people are out there not playing by the rules.
What's your policy on CS aimbots, fractaled?
Professional Farmers - Concillian - 11-29-2005
Ghostiger,Nov 28 2005, 09:03 PM Wrote:Its that Blizz wants a degree uniformity in loot by level.
If you have a problem with rolling adjustments like these you might consider not playing MMORPs.
There will always be imbalances that are adjusted as they become appearent.
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HAHAHAHA uniformity? The 'adjustments' have been VERY severe, and if they are to bring things to uniformity, I'm very scared of drops in the future, because mobs that were affected that should be dropping silver are dropping copper now. level 40 blues are selling for mere copper, etc...
Professional Farmers - Walkiry - 11-29-2005
oldmandennis,Nov 29 2005, 09:07 AM Wrote:Items bought with real money throw off the balance of the game in both PVP and PVE. If everyone could just buy anything that was not BOP, the difficulty of all PVE encounters would have to assume DMF epics and HOTW on every caster, warriors with full DI gear, hunters with full BDS. And any sham/pally/warrior who felt like competing in PVP at all would be compelled to buy the hand of Rag.
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I'd say that part of that problem is Blizzard's decision to make post-60 progress an itemization race, where people who just hit level 60 are assumed to be in the same bracket as people who've farmed MC, BWL or *Insert Uberinstance* for months. This is specially egregious in PvP.
You can easily mail your level 30 alt 100g or so and start decking them out with gear much much better than what it would be expected from that level, or even go with your 60 alt and plunder some resources for crafting good items for said alt, get a friend to race you through an instance, whatever; yet people won't think you're cheating, they'll (mostly) settle for "cheesing." After some playing you'll outgrow them and won't really make that much difference when you reach level 40+. At level 60, though, it's a different story. There you're supposed to go through gear to get to better gear, and use that gear to get the even better gear, all with the same level 60 requirement.
BoP is supposed to help with that, but when you have some of these "uberitems" achievable through BoE stuff, either crafting, ingredients to turn in a quest or whatever, then suddenly that just-turned-60 person can be at spitting distance of the loot with just a few $ and an appropiately placed farmer, instead of having to go through months of gathering X and Y by themselves (or their trusty guild).
Oh yeah, you can't buy the Hand of Ragnaros, you can only buy the Sulfuron Hammer (or the Sulfuras Hammer? I can't remember which one was which). HoR will need you going through MC, at least once if you're very lucky.
Professional Farmers - Gort - 11-29-2005
TheWesson,Nov 29 2005, 04:13 AM Wrote:The mobs drop 10g 80s (which would not otherwise be in the economy). They also drop ... runecloth? blue items? occasional purple items? which would not otherwise be in the economy (and most likely get more than 10g 80s at AH).
so the overall effect is what? not extra gold chasing the same number of items. It's extra gold chasing a larger number of *certain* items. Both gold and gold sinks are created. I couldn't say really whether the gold outweighs the gold sinks or not, given that there's also some gold from vendor trash generated...
Already acknowledged the mathematical error :) I'd argue your logic though. The items in question will move existing gold around it's true, but the extra numbers of those items from the farming of those NPCs distort the available supply. Given drop rates and cash dropped from those kinds of NPCs, I'd like to see the relative value of the average farmer's drops. Does the value of green/blue/purple items outweigh the cash farmed over time?
As for gold sinks, apart from repair to gear what gold sinks do they have? Maybe gryphon rides from IF (assuming they're hearthed there) and poisons for the rogues, arrows for the hunters. Simply killing all those NPCs pours more gold into the economy at a steady rate, and the extra items just depress values on the AH for those truly lucky players who get an epic World Drop and find that there are 3 already up for sale at low prices.
Quote:so if that gold goes largely to to *buying* the same items dropped, then overall you might see a slight deflation relative to certain items (which can drop in Tyr's Hand) and a slight inflation relative to other items (which don't drop in Tyr's Hand.)
That gold will be sold via IGE or some other site and then recirculate, but until it's bought with real money then it's sitting in the farmer-controller's bank. It's fresh money that's stockpiled to sell for RL currency and the overall supply on the server DOES increase.
Quote:so it's good for casuals farming areas and selling items that farmers dont farm. Bad for casuals buying items that farmers dont farm. Good for casuals buying items that farmers do farm. Bad for casuals buying items that farmers don't farm.
anyhow it's not blatantly a horrible ruin to the economy. It would seem to be introducing some weirdness in pricings though.
The distortion is there, as are the other annoyances of the farmer. The farmer is on a strict target and a lot of the courtesy that most real players display simply isn't there. The rogue that trains mobs on you and vanishes in the hope you'll die or at least get aggro so they can hijack the RTV you found, the farmer that follows you round the insect lairs in Silithus so they can mine while you're in combat.
A lot of "casuals" want the feeling of having achieved something themselves, but look at Mirajj's epic accomplishment against a backdrop of farmers making an absolute nightmare of themselves in Winterfall village, farming for greens and most likely firewater (which sells for 1g each usually). Weizhang and Yuzi made the Winterspring Frostsabre quests hell for a dedicated bunch of players who just wanted to complete the ultimate rep grind.
Quote:i can't imagine any gold farmers farming electro-lanterns. Casuals must've been farming electro-lanterns and Blizzard (rightly) nerfed the price (wrongly) too much. They should just figure out a good average salary (money per time) for each char level and do the math from there.
Before my time, I'll let those with more experience comment on that.
Professional Farmers - Guest - 11-29-2005
Concillian,Nov 29 2005, 03:10 AM Wrote:I'm very scared of drops in the future,
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I think you have issues.
People like you blow little things up and then pretend they matter. And miss the important problems in games.
The game is packed with grey loot. Some of it is undervalued and it doesnt hurt anything. People still hunt the mobs while leveling and dont look back.
If a piece is overvalued it does warp the game slightly depending on how over valued it is - so the obvious solution is to change the vender pay out.
Honestly Im have a hard time taking you serious after seeing you go on about this.
A piece of GREY loot was too popular so Blizz reduced its sell value - who cares?
Professional Farmers - Guest - 11-29-2005
Ah the evil "vanish train".
The only people that have ever done that(on purpose) to me were farmers who didnt speak english. One of them actually asked if I was Chinese a while before he started training on me.
Professional Farmers - Concillian - 11-29-2005
Ghostiger,Nov 29 2005, 07:02 AM Wrote:A piece of GREY loot was too popular so Blizz reduced its sell value - who cares?
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We've come full circle. If you are asking this question, read my first post in the thread again. You have somehow totally and completely missed my point.
Farmers. The same farmers everyone else is talking about. Not people who spend 2-3 days a week getting gold to buy a horsie, but the ones who convert gold to $$$.
After all, can't we assume that farmers are the exact reason Blizz not only changed the sell value of these items to something reasonable, but destroyed the value of these items completely?
Professional Farmers - Brista - 11-29-2005
fractaled,Nov 29 2005, 02:46 AM Wrote:Ditto. If "farming" is someone's definition of fun, then who am I to say they shouldn't be doing it?
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Did you read the thread? No one is attacking farming for fun. People are discussing professional farming here
Professional Farmers - Tal - 11-29-2005
Descended,Nov 28 2005, 12:32 PM Wrote:Oh, and I see the opportunity to purchase in-game items with real money to be a problem entirely different that that of farming (if it was professional farmers in the lead when it comes to filling the auction houses, it would be some other group, like college students). I don't like the idea of players paying money for in game benefits without those items/players being flagged clearly. I want to be able to compare how well my choices and skill have paid off during the time I have played compared to other people [this is why I think you should be able to see timed /played for other characters, so you can compare how well you are doing to them post 60]. I am a competative person, what can I say.
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This is exactly the problem this thread entails. Whether the professional farmer is selling resources or items the resulting AH gold goes into the coffer to be sold along with grinded gold for money.
Professional Farmers - oldmandennis - 11-29-2005
Walkiry,Nov 29 2005, 02:19 AM Wrote:Oh yeah, you can't buy the Hand of Ragnaros, you can only buy the Sulfuron Hammer (or the Sulfuras Hammer? I can't remember which one was which). HoR will need you going through MC, at least once if you're very lucky.
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Oopsie. Well, you get the point.
You could also pretty much pay for a great deal of ZG, by buying bijous and coins for rep, then all the punctured vodoo dolls you need. All you would have to do is kill a couple of bosses for their Primal items.
Professional Farmers - TheWesson - 11-29-2005
Concillian,Nov 29 2005, 08:08 AM Wrote:We've come full circle. If you are asking this question, read my first post in the thread again. You have somehow totally and completely missed my point.
Farmers. The same farmers everyone else is talking about. Not people who spend 2-3 days a week getting gold to buy a horsie, but the ones who convert gold to $$$.
After all, can't we assume that farmers are the exact reason Blizz not only changed the sell value of these items to something reasonable, but destroyed the value of these items completely?
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I don't know for sure, but I doubt it. 15s item dropping from about 30% of the mobs? A lvl60 farmer could do a lot better than that (considering that blues go for 10,000s+ and purples go for 100,000s+, especially.)
On my server 10 copper ore sells for about 1g in AH, so you'd be better off making an alt and mining in the canyons around Orgrimmar and making 5g/hr that way. Iron or another metal might be even better; haven't checked.
(Actually the best way to make money is to know your AH prices and sit in OG or IF all day and make deals. That woudl require expertise I'm not too anxious to learn, though.)
Professional Farmers - fractaled - 11-30-2005
Concillian,Nov 29 2005, 04:08 PM Wrote:After all, can't we assume that farmers are the exact reason Blizz not only changed the sell value of these items to something reasonable, but destroyed the value of these items completely?I wouldn't assume they did it because of professional farmers. Non-professional ones maybe. I don't know what mechanisms they have to track things. But from one of those BlizzCon panels they revealed that they tracked deaths by mob type, it doesn't take to much watch drop value by mob type either. All it takes is for Blizzard to notice it being heavily farmed on one out of their 100+ servers before they realize they made a mistake and correct it. As for the dramatic decrease in pricing, I don't know if it was a typo that they just corrected, or if they just wanted to make it truly junk in a knee-jerk response. Either way, it really doesn't matter that much.
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I think this part of the thread has gone off on a tangent that isn't really relevant. Nerfing a gray item price is nothing really. Nerfing fishing is.
Professional Farmers - fractaled - 11-30-2005
Brista,Nov 29 2005, 05:48 PM Wrote:No one is attacking farming for fun. People are discussing professional farming hereA lot of people like making money for fun. Be it gold or dollars. And what is the difference between farmers and professional farmers? Besides the obvious that one makes real world money off of it? Both are trying to maximize their gold. They're both going to sell at the highest price the market will bear. Both will give away gold to others for nothing that is tangible in the MMO (be it friendship or dollars). Both will camp profitable spots. Professional farmers might do it in shifts, but if there are 3x as many non-professional farmers, does that make a difference?
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Really, how do you tell a professional one from a non professional one? I'd like to see it quantified as to how many farmers there are and what percentage of the economy they make up.