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+--- Thread: Terenas - Karazhan May 22nd (/thread-3045.html)
Terenas - Karazhan May 22nd - Sinomin - 05-24-2007
Quote:Let the man tank! He grew up tanking everything, may as well let him do it in raids too. =) Yes, I know he respecced to healing.;)
Im still trying to find the best balance =) Either that or Im a respecaholic.
Terenas - Karazhan May 22nd - Kevin - 05-24-2007
Quote:Yes, it is a multiplier of Holy damage. I thought the limiting factor was the rage generation. Hence starting with a full blue rage bar would overcome that.
If no form of damage causes threat then Taunts and Growl are the only way to hold the mob? Both are those are limited by cooldowns and resists.
Edit: The last fight I was on the mob blinked to Saryn each time. Maybe the MT healer and the MT should stand closer together so there isnt any travel time when he blinks.
Obviously the mob does have a threat table and healing is high on it. If the mob cant be controlled then maybe we can force him to blink to a better target. If I was the sole healer on his tank then maybe he would come after me. I know that wouldnt work for both raids since we only have one Pally. Just throwing out ideas.
The issue with pally threat for the big guy is the same as for warriors. All the damage you do while mana shield is up is absorbed. Absorbed damage doesn't generate threat. I don't how it works as far as the aggro goes, but if the holy damage is all absorbed and not generating threat it might not be any easier for a paladin to hold him than a warrior. Misdirect doesn't really work on them either because the absorbed shots don't seem to eat up charges. When I'm asked to misdirect those pulls I'm actually shooting the little guys and the big guy is just going to the warrior because of prox aggro (since the misdirect is like the warrior pulling). Though I'll have to try it again. Since both raids don't always have hunters the hunters don't get to pull all the time (which is fine) since the tanks are used to doing the pulls. So I'm not positive on this but I seem to recall that one time I misdirected them and the shots were absorbed by the mana shield the charges weren't used and the mobs all came right to me.
The hunter pet is a bit different since growl is a fixed amount of threat and it doesn't matter about the damage the pet is doing. I don't know if it would be more than the healer threat and blink seems to send it ot the 2nd person on the threat list (the healer). Not that I've really messed with this. Growl is generally off in Kara unless I'm asked to have it on since the healers have the pet as bottom heal priority, which is exactly where the pet should be. They need to know that the pet might get aggro before I turn growl on. So while the pet is usually killing the big guy while I'm trapping a little one it's not really generating high aggro.
Maybe they don't seem to be as big a deal on the runs I'm on since most of the time I seem to be with a druid and shaman healer. The druid will still do a decent amount of healing via lifebloom and the big chunk lifebloom does at the end counts as the person who healed healing, not as the druid healing (the HoT part still counts against the druid), and the earth shield the shaman puts up also counts as healing the tank does not the shaman. So that will change the aggro tables a bit. While a druid has less armor than a priest with inner fire up, a shaman would still have more.
But again I'm not sure what the difference is. I've generally only seen a DPS, if anyone, die on those pulls (again unless it was a bad pull when we were still learning and we got 2 groups). I almost never see a healer die so I'm not sure what the deal is. The last run I did with Necrali I don't recall anyone dieing on them at all.
Terenas - Karazhan May 22nd - Mavfin - 05-24-2007
Frag can jump in here if I'm wrong, but the warriors can use some abilities that have static threat added, like sunder, etc., but that's a poor substitute for damage-caused threat.
Terenas - Karazhan May 22nd - Concillian - 05-24-2007
After reading through this I have one comment.
Necrali did 9 damage to Maiden of Virtue... in 12 hits
:blink:
Terenas - Karazhan May 22nd - mandydax - 05-24-2007
Quote:Yes, it is a multiplier of Holy damage. I thought the limiting factor was the rage generation. Hence starting with a full blue rage bar would overcome that.
If no form of damage causes threat then Taunts and Growl are the only way to hold the mob? Both are those are limited by cooldowns and resists.
Edit: The last fight I was on the mob blinked to Saryn each time. Maybe the MT healer and the MT should stand closer together so there isnt any travel time when he blinks.
Obviously the mob does have a threat table and healing is high on it. If the mob cant be controlled then maybe we can force him to blink to a better target. If I was the sole healer on his tank then maybe he would come after me. I know that wouldnt work for both raids since we only have one Pally. Just throwing out ideas.
I'm not familiar with these pulls because I haven't been to that part of Kara (Curse you, #$%&ty work hours!!), but from what I understand, the tank can't get any aggro because the damage is absorbed, and the rage tanks can't get any rage to use other threat generating abilities. I suppose it's not possible for the shield to be stolen or dispelled, as that would be too easy. :rolleyes: So the only people who can get threat is the healer.
Why not make that healer a pally with Righteous Fury up? That way, when aggro flies to the healer, that healer is at least in plate. It seems a pally could tank it if he's doing nothing to attack the shield, but spamming Flash of Light on himself. Pull it, throw down a Consecration to get aggro on the Syphoners. Maybe have priests throw on a shield when possible to help reduce the knockback. Other healers get Blessing of Salvation and the burn through that shield. Use Aura of Concentration also to stop the knockback. I'm kind of talking blind here, but it seems like a good plan.
Terenas - Karazhan May 22nd - Concillian - 05-25-2007
Quote:If no form of damage causes threat then Taunts and Growl are the only way to hold the mob? Both are those are limited by cooldowns and resists.
Edit: The last fight I was on the mob blinked to Saryn each time. Maybe the MT healer and the MT should stand closer together so there isnt any travel time when he blinks.
Obviously the mob does have a threat table and healing is high on it. If the mob cant be controlled then maybe we can force him to blink to a better target. If I was the sole healer on his tank then maybe he would come after me. I know that wouldnt work for both raids since we only have one Pally. Just throwing out ideas.
Sunder has static threat value, so it is used tanking these guys. Bloodrage gets you enough rage for the pull and then you take some damage to stay ahead of the healers... until he blinks (and wipes aggro), then whoever heals first gets aggro.
I've read of a second way to do these pulls. Destroy any non-CC'd syphoners first, so the shield is not allowed to grow, this makes getting through the shield that much easier.
Last week the raid I was on lost Saryn after the blink a couple times, and this week we lost Necrali a couple times after the blink.
Pally healing or pet tanking probably make the most sense. Looks like they can crit, as we have one crit for 8000+ from these guys on WWS (a hit on Necrali). We might also want to institute a no HOT rule on these pulls to better control them after the blink.
Terenas - Karazhan May 22nd - Kevin - 05-25-2007
Quote:Sunder has static threat value, so it is used tanking these guys. Bloodrage gets you enough rage for the pull and then you take some damage to stay ahead of the healers... until he blinks (and wipes aggro), then whoever heals first gets aggro.
I've read of a second way to do these pulls. Destroy any non-CC'd syphoners first, so the shield is not allowed to grow, this makes getting through the shield that much easier.
Last week the raid I was on lost Saryn after the blink a couple times, and this week we lost Necrali a couple times after the blink.
Pally healing or pet tanking probably make the most sense. Looks like they can crit, as we have one crit for 8000+ from these guys on WWS (a hit on Necrali). We might also want to institute a no HOT rule on these pulls to better control them after the blink.
If the pet is tanking it should be hanging around 11K armor, and 9K life so it wouldn't get one shotted, not to mention that now with the change to mend pet I could leave my HoT on it. If it blinks to the hunter I can pop deterrance or FD or just take a hit or two while the pet dashes over and growls/intimidates.
Terenas - Karazhan May 22nd - Concillian - 05-25-2007
Quote:If the pet is tanking it should be hanging around 11K armor, and 9K life so it wouldn't get one shotted, not to mention that now with the change to mend pet I could leave my HoT on it. If it blinks to the hunter I can pop deterrance or FD or just take a hit or two while the pet dashes over and growls/intimidates.
The damage is wierd, I'm not sure if armor helps.
According to the WWS data:
100% arcane damage.
Arcane but can be missed, dodged, or parried
Cannot be blocked and can crit.
Unknown if it can be mitigated by armor, but the highest non-crit was on Sham, so I'm thinking not.
Terenas - Karazhan May 22nd - Kevin - 05-25-2007
Quote:The damage is wierd, I'm not sure if armor helps.
According to the WWS data:
100% arcane damage.
Arcane but can be missed, dodged, or parried
Cannot be blocked and can crit.
Unknown if it can be mitigated by armor, but the highest non-crit was on Sham, so I'm thinking not.
Well I can push the pet health higher, I've had the pet at 12K life, but the takes Mark, Fort, and Commanding or a warlock imp. I've never had all 4 on the pet/me at once (nor had all that + kings either) so I did a low side estimate. But it sounds kinda like how Baron Geddon worked then. He did pure fire damage but he delivered it like a normal physical attack (though you could block on him). But still I think the pet should take the hit relatively well anyway if we go that route. I didn't dig through the WWS data on those mobs yet.
Of course sometimes I'm just soloing one of the worms because it stopped to flay someone else on the way to the trap or the big guy blinked into the trap and wasted it so I just have the pet get on it and then kill it while the pet tanks it (depending on where the cooldown on the trap is). So I don't always get my damage on the big guy as fast as I should.
Terenas - Karazhan May 22nd - vor_lord - 05-25-2007
Fear my untrained mace skill!!!!!
Yeah I did that during the second of our accidental pulls, when I was trying to die as fast as I could by standing in the holy ground.