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Some things leave you slack jawed - kandrathe - 08-24-2004
To me it seemed like all the competitors were a little disturbed by the crowds near riot over the poor judging. It was obvious that Cassini deserved the gold, but the others I can't be sure. And, if you train and have the Olympics as a life goal you would want the competition to be fair and well judged. That is, no politics, no dope, no horse crap judging. I think much of the subsequent poor performances after the crowd insurrection can partly be attributed to the hostility and mood in the arena. The crowd should not be a factor in Olympic gymnastic performances.
Some things leave you slack jawed - Nystul - 08-24-2004
They interviewed Hamm, but he didn't seem to have much to say about the whole thing. I almost wonder if it even registered with him.
I didn't get a chance to see the last day of gymnastics, but I would imagine Hamm is pretty frustrated. He qualifies on four events and the all-around, leads his team to a medal they've been trying to get for a long time, follows it up by winning the individual all-around, goes to his event finals and has to field questions about judging controversies. Then the next day of event finals, his routine is delayed for 10 minutes because the crowd is booing the surprisingly low score of the person before him. He still medals in that event (losing the gold only by the tiebreaker rules, no less), and has to field questions about another judging controversy. And now the head of international gymnastics is trying to pass the buck by suggesting that Hamm should give his gold medal in the all-around to Yang.
Some things leave you slack jawed - degrak - 08-24-2004
Griselda,Aug 24 2004, 11:45 AM Wrote:Did you see the way Cassini was shaking his head during the medal ceremony? He did *not* look happy. They cut away right after that, but I would love to have heard his thoughts on the events of the evening.I noticed that as well.
Some things leave you slack jawed - Munkay - 08-24-2004
Nystul,Aug 24 2004, 04:34 PM Wrote:And now the head of international gymnastics is trying to pass the buck by suggesting that Hamm should give his gold medal in the all-around to Yang.That angers me to no end. I'm all about fairness, though the rules clearly state any petition against the scoring must be done during the competition, otherwise the scores are final. The olympic commity has said its open to the idea of giving double medals if the koreans can make strong enough case.
I feel that its utterly ridiculous for people to judge Hamm for not giving the medal to the korean. He worked his whole life for this goal, lead the best win in olympic gymnastic history, and to say he should give it up? I'm sorry. Give double medals if it warrants it. Don't take his away, and don't hold it against him that he's holding onto what he won.
Hung over munk is in a tiff with the head of international gymnastics :angry:
Cheers,
Munk
Some things leave you slack jawed - Griselda - 08-25-2004
I understand that. But, I guess I feel like it could also be Hamm's place to lead a movement towards less personal interpretation in judging. That is, "I feel like I won the event, but because of the current judging format, there will always (unfortunately) be people who doubt that." rather than just "I won and I'm tired of people saying I didn't."
I don't know too much about the specific standards that are used, but it seems clear that they're not specific enough. Are judges allowed to watch replays before scoring? Are they encouraged to? It seems like gymnastics might be a place where replays could be used well (as opposed to, say, basketball where every play could potentially get bogged down if referees always had to go to the tape). The announcers kept talking about how participants weren't given much credit for attempting new techniques that were more difficult than the ones currently used. Since the sport has moved forward, and many moves that used to be daring have become commonplace, perhaps it's time to reconsider the starting scores assigned to routines? There were a lot of tie scores. If difficulties were spread out further, it would be easier to differentiate between the good routines and the great ones.
Mind you, I know next to nothing about gymnastics. So, take my opinion with a grain of salt.
Some things leave you slack jawed - kandrathe - 08-25-2004
Quote:I don't know too much about the specific standards that are used, but it seems clear that they're not specific enough. Are judges allowed to watch replays before scoring? Are they encouraged to? It seems like gymnastics might be a place where replays could be used well (as opposed to, say, basketball where every play could potentially get bogged down if referees always had to go to the tape). The announcers kept talking about how participants weren't given much credit for attempting new techniques that were more difficult than the ones currently used. Since the sport has moved forward, and many moves that used to be daring have become commonplace, perhaps it's time to reconsider the starting scores assigned to routines? There were a lot of tie scores. If difficulties were spread out further, it would be easier to differentiate between the good routines and the great ones.If we are going to have "sports" that are judged rather than measured, (and there are any number of current olympic sports from gymnastics to figure skating that require a judge to make a determination of difficulty, skill and artistry) then we are going to have to live with the subjectivness of judges. They already have a panel of judges who all have to watch and score the event, toss out the highest and lowest scores, and average the remainder. But, when two individuals can do entirely different routines on the high bar and tie for first place (other than two 10.0's), I dunno what more you can do to differentiate. Maybe change to a 100 point scale to allow for greater gradiations. So then it might have been 95.364 versus 95.363. :)
But, please! No instant replay in any sport. Trust the refs and the judges or get better ones, but don't devolve sport into a video analysis of individual performance.
Some things leave you slack jawed - Munkay - 08-25-2004
kandrathe,Aug 24 2004, 08:45 PM Wrote:But, please! No instant replay in any sport. Trust the refs and the judges or get better ones, but don't devolve sport into a video analysis of individual performance.Agreed
Some things leave you slack jawed - Lady Vashj - 08-26-2004
As was said by one of the reporters covering the event, you could analyze the videos of every single performance and come up with completely different results each time. As a general rule, in events that are judged rather than scored or timed ... if... you... have... a... problem... say... so... BEFORE... medals... are... awarded. However right the Koreans think they are (and might actually be, for all we know), right now, all they're doing is making themselves look like sore losers.
EDIT: Munkay said it too. I missed that the first read.
As for things that made me slack-jawed...
Men's 4x200 Freestyle relay. Much praise and glory to all, especially Klete Keller. I used to swim competitively (including the same race, on the women's side), and that was one hell of a race.
Some things leave you slack jawed - Nystul - 08-26-2004
However right the Koreans think they are (and might actually be, for all we know), right now, all they're doing is making themselves look like sore losers.
In terms of the issue they are protesting, the Koreans definitely are right. What got screwed up was a fairly simple and objective process of recognizing the elements in the routine, looking up the bonus values, adding together a few two digit numbers, and getting a start value. Since judges have already been disciplined, it's pretty clear that they did manage to screw this up.
The big mystery is, why didn't the Koreans file an immediate protest? As I understand it, the rules require them to do that. The event went into the last rotation, and all of the gymnasts had a rough idea of the scores and what they needed to try to accomplish. The score should have been challenged and adjusted before that point. It's not quite as problematic as changing the number of goals scored in a soccer match after the match is over, but it is the same kind of issue. Changing the results now based on video review would set a bad precedent, and the federation will need to be very clear about what kinds of things can be challenged and when it can happen.
As for things that make me slack-jawed, the women's soccer/football gold medal match sure had me on the edge of my seat. The best part was when it went to overtime, and the officials were too worn out to come back to the field! Maybe that is the problem with gymnastics judging... the officials are sitting in their easy chairs instead of running around to get the best angle of the play.
Some things leave you slack jawed - Ajax - 08-27-2004
I was watching one of the distance events in track the other day, I believe it was the 10,000M (8000M?). It was intersting to note that, some of the splits for the distance events have only been reached by runners from African nations. That race finished, IIRC with African runners in sweeping the first 8 slots.
US track dominance indeed! At least, not at that distance!
This being said, even to get to the Olympics is a feat. All the runners in that race (or in any other event, for that matter) have my deepest appreciation for their talent and hard work. At some point you have to know that a medal is a nice little "dodad" but only scratches the surface; everybody there is first-class.