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+--- Thread: PvP (/thread-6531.html)
PvP - Mirajj - 04-22-2005
Reading all this, it makes me glad that I tend to see very little PvP action on the PvE server I play on. But it also seems to me that an easy solution presents itself. People want to kill NPC's. But doing so really screws around (however you look at it) with other people's game.
So make all the NPC's non PvP enabled...except the Town Guards. You want to fight, pick one with those who are somewhat equipped to fight back.
Picking a fight with a 'regular' NPC smacks of the high schooler picking on an elementary school student. You want to fight, fight with those who are built to take it.
PvP - savaughn - 04-22-2005
Alram,Apr 20 2005, 08:44 PM Wrote:On a PvE server theoretically, if you don't want to engage in PvPÂ you don't have to and your gameplay experience will be unaffected by PvP.I think the problem is that your underlying assumption is wrong. On a PvE server you are minimally impacted by PvP. No one ever said you wouldn't be affected by it. You are. By design. Similarly, you may wish for compelling end game content that does not require having to group or the ability to complete all game content without ever having to play with others and be disappointed. You will be disappointed with WoW, because the game designers felt very explicitly that:
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a) the game is better when played with others
b) other players will always be more interesting to compete with than game AI.
What you are complaining about is griefing. In some ways, the PvE servers minimize griefing. In others, the game design explicitly allows it in an effort to encourage intergroup conflict. Since this is a core part of the game design, unfortunately, this leaves you with two options. Either learn to tolerate (or even enjoy) it, or find something less stressful to play.
PvP - Sir_Die_alot - 04-22-2005
savaughn,Apr 21 2005, 08:55 PM Wrote:Either learn to tolerate (or even enjoy) it, or find something less stressful to play.This love it or leave crap is really old and lame. Maybe they should change it so there is no PvP then all you people who want it can find something more stressful to play?
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PvP - liffuie - 04-22-2005
to think they could of avoided all of this imo, if they just put in honor system at the same time as battlegrounds=p
PvP - TaiDaishar - 04-22-2005
Sir_Die_alot,Apr 22 2005, 07:10 AM Wrote:This love it or leave crap is really old and lame. Maybe they should change it so there is no PvP then all you people who want it can find something more stressful to play?
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But aren't they right? They complain about a core design decision Blizzard has said it will do, what CAN you do besides either "love it or leave it"?
I see their points and I have been affected by these at times as well, but there's not much you can really do about it, so if it bugs you THAT much simply leave the game or hope that Battlegrounds will help such things.
PvP - Brista - 04-22-2005
Actually I think there's certainly something that can be done
There are 3 server types: pvp, this hybrid that Alram complains of and RP. There's no reason they shouldn't add a fourth type if enough customers indicate that as a preference
The "find another game" and "deal with it" responses are trite. I doubt that any of the people saying these responses feel that that would be an appropriate response to problems of their own. Artega, for instance, has pointed out many times that warriors anomalously and perhaps unfairly don't get a talent that improves chance to hit. I doubt he'd appreciate a "find another game" response next time he mentions it ;)
Campaigning for a fourth server type would be a massive undertaking and would only be successful if it attracted huge support. However tow factors exist which might encourage such a campaign.
1) People like to join the winning side. The 70/30 servers are likely to become 80/20 in 3 months time. As far as I can see, the Honour system encourages this. This will mean more bored pvp wannabes with no one to fight
2) People are levelling. As time goes on a larger proportion of the population will be level 60. A related factor is that people are completing their optimal outfits. Once you have every item you want instancing becomes a bit pointless and picking fights, with all your uber gear giving you the advantage, may be all that's left for some players
Campaigning to get current servers changed, perhaps with the option of people transferring their characters to pvp servers, seems unlikely to succeed, but that's another option
I don't know if there's any in-game practical advice to give that isn't obvious. At the risk of re-stating the obvious though here goes:
- don't get stressed simply because it's a human. Just react as if it's another force of nature like lag, going link dead, or whatever. It's a temporary inconvenience that's only upsetting if you let it upset you
- don't let emotes stress you. /chicken or whatever. Form a mental image of some fat spotty thirteen year old behind the toon and the idea that they're being brave trying to get your level 40 toon to react to their level 60 one is laughable :)
- if you emote back (/yawn, /laugh) you encourage them.
- If you hang around trying to grab the quest quick before they kill the npc, you encourage them
- don't assume that they will kill the NPC once then leave. If they are killing an NPC it's to find out if they can provoke a fight so they are likely to keep trying until they get their fight
- if you call in high level help you are establishing that quest-giver as a viable method of generating pvp. I suggest not encouraging pvp around a quest-giver you want to use in the future
- don't be overawed by them. If they had any balls they'd pvp on the pvp server, these guys are the armchair heroes who only want to fight when sure they will win. They are not even slightly impressive to any real pvpers
- it's only a game :)
PvP - Artega - 04-22-2005
TaiDaishar,Apr 22 2005, 02:58 AM Wrote:But aren't they right? They complain about a core design decision Blizzard has said it will do, what CAN you do besides either "love it or leave it"?
I see their points and I have been affected by these at times as well, but there's not much you can really do about it, so if it bugs you THAT much simply leave the game or hope that Battlegrounds will help such things.
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And this is what I've been trying to say. Whining about the core design of the game isn't going to change things, so why bother?
There are things that I'd love to see changed or added to the Warrior class, but I am very much aware that they will never see light, so I've stopped concerning myself with what I perceive as problems with the class.
PvP - Treesh - 04-22-2005
Brista,Apr 22 2005, 02:35 AM Wrote:There are 3 server types: pvp, this hybrid that Alram complains of and RP. There's no reason they shouldn't add a fourth type if enough customers indicate that as a preferenceBlizzard has repeatedly said that they will not add new server types anytime soon because of the added work load on the GMs. This is why PvP roleplaying servers are not instated and why total free-for-all PvP servers are not in. You can try to get something organized to make them change their mind, but it isn't going to happen unless people cancel accounts and make it known to Blizzard that it was specifically because of the lack of another server ruleset and even then *shrug* who knows.
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PvP - Mavfin - 04-22-2005
Artega,Apr 22 2005, 07:20 AM Wrote:And this is what I've been trying to say. Whining about the core design of the game isn't going to change things, so why bother?
There are things that I'd love to see changed or added to the Warrior class, but I am very much aware that they will never see light, so I've stopped concerning myself with what I perceive as problems with the class.
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I think you're all oversensitive. For the record, I play on a PvE server about all the time, and haven't yet gotten around to flagging myself intentionally and PvPing. The longest I've ever had to wait for a quest NPC to respawn has been about 3 minutes. If you can't wait 3 minutes for him to respawn, then you *do* need to find something else to do, as you're WAY too addicted. :shuriken:
PvP gives all the bored 13-yr-olds on the PvE servers something to do. Believe me, if they weren't doing that, they'd find something else equally as irritating to do. IMO, it's no big deal about the NPCs. They'll be back.
PvP - Tal - 04-22-2005
Sir_Die_alot,Apr 21 2005, 09:18 PM Wrote:So your argument is not "Artega, I don't care for beer." ... "Deal with it, Occhi, you'll get used to the bubbles and the flavor after a while." Instead it is "Artega, I don't care for salt they added to my beer." ... "Too bad I like salt in my beer. If you don't like it, you have find something else to drink now." ?
And this is better how? This is a bad argument and I think you know it.
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This is a bad analogy though as Blizzard has always put salt in your beer and even advertised that there was salt in the beer from day one. There is even a page about the beers that advertises that one has more salt than the other.
Folks are now upset though because they've put pretzels (PvP honor and rewards) on the barstop causing unruly drunks to drink more beer and eat more pretzels. ;)
PvP - Quark - 04-22-2005
Brista,Apr 22 2005, 02:35 AM Wrote:1) People like to join the winning side. The 70/30 servers are likely to become 80/20 in 3 months time. As far as I can see, the Honour system encourages this. This will mean more bored pvp wannabes with no one to fight
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It doesn't, though. Anyone on the "winning" side will be getting diluted contribution points. Then they also have their points counted against more people. I think it'd be harder to gain high ranks on the "winning" side.
PvP - Treesh - 04-22-2005
Mavfin,Apr 22 2005, 08:05 AM Wrote:The longest I've ever had to wait for a quest NPC to respawn has been about 3 minutes. If you can't wait 3 minutes for him to respawn, then you *do* need to find something else to do, as you're WAY too addicted. :shuriken:It's not the waiting that can be the problem (I've waited myself for quest NPCs to come back). It's the waiting for the respawn only to have the enemy faction player kill the quest NPC yet again and again and again so you don't get the chance to talk to the NPC. So go to another NPC for a different quest? Oh, wait, the other ones in that area are killed as well and rekilled on respawn. Go to another area? If you're horde, that's easier said than done on a lot of servers now. Lots of your other choices for good quest areas are being raided and/or NPC camped and it's just too incredibly laggy to even attempt to quest until the raiders get bored and move on. The problem isn't PvP on PvE servers (for me anyway). It's the honor system being put in without battlegrounds for the PvE servers.
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PvP - RTM - 04-22-2005
I've only just started playing on a PvE server and have yet to be exceedingly inconvenienced by NPC killing, but my few months on a PvP server had no such problems; the opposing faction pretty much ignored quest/trainer NPC's. If it is such a huge deal, perhaps a move to a PvP server would solve your problem? ;)
PvP - russ - 04-22-2005
Quark,Apr 22 2005, 01:13 PM Wrote:It doesn't, though. Anyone on the "winning" side will be getting diluted contribution points. Then they also have their points counted against more people. I think it'd be harder to gain high ranks on the "winning" side.But there will be more of the higher ranks on the most populated side, the 'winning' side, in this example. You have the same percentage of the population in each rank on either side, and as long as you get a number of contribution points similar to everyone else, then the dilution doesn't matter. Think of it like inflation, but only if there's no other monetary system.
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If the faction balance becomes further off, however, it may become very difficult to get the minimum contribution for the lesser faction. After all, if you charge into a group of ten people, chances are damn good you won't be able to kill one of them before you die. If the Alliance population becomes as where such groups are almost unavoidable, and the Horde population gets to the point where there's no one else in the zone, that's what PvP will be like.
PvP - Alram - 04-22-2005
1. I am not "stressed out." I am commenting on a problem which exists.
2. Am I whining? If so, then please explain to me how to state an opinion without whining.
3. Most of the discussion here has been about the griefing which I brought up. The lag which I mentioned in my initial post has not been discussed. The lag is not an advertised feature of the game. The lag can make the game unplayable. It will extend throughout an entire zone, and possibly (I am not certain about this.) into zones adjacent to the zone where a large PvP battle is occurring.
4. It is of interest to me that the most vocal objections to my point of view about PvE servers come from a player whose characters are all on PvP servers.
PvP - Mavfin - 04-22-2005
Alram,Apr 22 2005, 10:48 AM Wrote:1. I am not "stressed out." I am commenting on a problem which exists.
2. Am I whining? If so, then please explain to me how to state an opinion without whining.
3. Most of the discussion here has been about the griefing which I brought up. The lag which I mentioned in my initial post has not been discussed. The lag is not an advertised feature of the game. The lag can make the game unplayable. It will extend throughout an entire zone, and possibly (I am not certain about this.) into zones adjacent to the zone where a large PvP battle is occurring.
4. It is of interest to me that the most vocal objections to my point of view about PvE servers come from a player whose characters are all on PvP servers.
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Now you're making generalizations and coming close to attacking someone for differing with your opinion. I play on PvE servers pretty much exclusively, and I disagree with your viewpoint, I just don't say it in the same way as the other person.
As far as the lag because of people in the zone, that's mostly on your end, i.e. loading lag, and can be solved by more RAM in your box. I see very little of this kind of lag. Don't make PvP the issue for lag, please.
One person up the thread made the point that Blizzard has *always* said that PvP would exist on the PvE servers as a voluntary thing, so, if you want to fuss about PvP being on them, it's a little late. You knew it was there when you started. However, I do think that you should give it a week or two to settle down and get the first rush of honor kills out of the way, as I don't think it will continue at the level of the past few days indefinitely.
Even at the height of the raiding in SS, I was able to transact business and turn in quests in Southshore just fine, thank you, on my PvE server, even though there was Horde and Alliance players fighting all over the place just up from the inn.
I'm afraid you have two choices, realistically. Deal with it, or don't, and go elsewhere. You can talk about Blizz doing something else, but I don't see that happening for quite a while.
I have also been known to log into a scrap char I keep on each server of the other faction, log into it, and PM the player who's doing the camping and ask them to leave off so I can quest. I remind them that camping the same quest NPC over and over is against the rules, and that I will report them if they continue. Either they quit, or I get STFU or worse, and report them for that, too. No need for that behavior. No, it doesn't fix the problem immediately, but it takes time for the word to get out that you're not supposed to do that, and if you do nothing about it, then nothing ever changes.
One or two kills of a quest NPC, or several kills by different players/groups of players? No problem. It's the camping I'll say something about, but, I've only done the above process twice.
Killing guards to precipitate a fight? Not a problem, go for it. Whack the quest NPC/Merch to get someone to come out and defend? Fine. Just do it once or twice and find another target, please.
PvP - Tal - 04-22-2005
Alram,Apr 22 2005, 11:48 AM Wrote:3. Most of the discussion here has been about the griefing which I brought up. The lag which I mentioned in my initial post has not been discussed. The lag is not an advertised feature of the game. The lag can make the game unplayable. It will extend throughout an entire zone, and possibly (I am not certain about this.) into zones adjacent to the zone where a large PvP battle is occurring.
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The lag is insane - I think anyone will agree to that. But I view it as comparable to being in Ironforge during prime time.
PvP - Darian - 04-22-2005
Tal,Apr 22 2005, 01:19 PM Wrote:The lag is insane - I think anyone will agree to that. But I view it as comparable to being in Ironforge during prime time.
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Except, of course, that since the patch my latency in IF has consistently been under 50ms... :o
PvP - Tal - 04-22-2005
Darian,Apr 22 2005, 01:31 PM Wrote:Except, of course, that since the patch my latency in IF has consistently been under 50ms... :o
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Pssst! Its 'cause they're all out raiding o' tankish one! :D
PvP - Sir_Die_alot - 04-22-2005
Tal,Apr 22 2005, 05:11 AM Wrote:This is a bad analogy though as Blizzard has always put salt in your beer and even advertised that there was salt in the beer from day one. There is even a page about the beers that advertises that one has more salt than the other.DOWN WITH PRETZELS! I think we have stretched Ochi's analogy about as far as it can go. :lol:
Folks are now upset though because they've put pretzels (PvP honor and rewards) on the barstop causing unruly drunks to drink more beer and eat more pretzels. ;)
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