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Americans and Religion - SwissMercenary - 08-29-2006

Quote:OTOH, I've found atheists to be generally arrogant as hell when it comes to their "enlightened" belief that they are smarter than religious people solely on the basis that they are not believing in something that can't be proven and requires an act of faith. As far as "closemindedness", do atheists believe that there is at least a small possibility that there is a god? They do NOT. That is also closemindedness. Those who do think that it is at least a remote possibility are not true atheists.
-A

I think the only close-mindedness here, is in your portrayal of atheists.

I bit, didn't I?

Americans and Religion - roguebanshee - 08-29-2006

Quote:In fact, I'd think most adults would consider it a fairly touchy subject in mixed religious company and would avoid the subject altogether without something like a survey forcing it on them.
Or if/when they want to learn about different cultures. Not a common setting and it does need a certain level of tact from all parts involved to go successfully.

The thread has been fairly enlightening to me so far.

Americans and Religion - Occhidiangela - 08-29-2006

Quote:OTOH, I've found atheists to be generally arrogant as hell when it comes to their "enlightened" belief that they are smarter than religious people solely on the basis that they are not believing in something that can't be proven and requires an act of faith. As far as "closemindedness", do atheists believe that there is at least a small possibility that there is a god? They do NOT. That is also closemindedness. Those who do think that it is at least a remote possibility are not true atheists.-A
But they might be Scotsmen. ;)

Occhi

Americans and Religion - Concillian - 08-29-2006

Quote:I recently stumbled upon this article.
Quote:Based on a telephone survey of more than 2,000 households and in-depth interviews with more than 140 people, researchers found that Americans rate atheists below Muslims, recent immigrants, homosexuals and other groups as "sharing their vision of American society." Americans are also least willing to let their children marry atheists.
Is this a view any of the american posters here can recognize?

Least likely to "let their children marry Athiests"?

Umm... what parents are enforcing arranged marriages? Do American parents really have any ability to "not let" their children marry anyone?

I suspect the questions in this survey were carefully worded to garner specific responses, or the interviewees were picked in a non-random fashion.

Of course, it could just be that I have lived in a very tolerant area of the country my whole life (urban California), and I underestimate the amount of racial and religious prejudice in areas of the country that I am not as familiar with.

Americans and Religion - Quark - 08-29-2006

Quote:OTOH, I've found atheists to be generally arrogant as hell when it comes to their "enlightened" belief that they are smarter than religious people solely on the basis that they are not believing in something that can't be proven and requires an act of faith.
I have no problem with people who believe what they do because they questioned it, thought about it, and came to that conclusion.

I have a problem with those who simply believe what they are told.

Quote:As far as "closemindedness", do atheists believe that there is at least a small possibility that there is a god? They do NOT. That is also closemindedness. Those who do think that it is at least a remote possibility are not true atheists.
-A
Wow, you're just the expert on atheists aren't you? Let's go through this, slowly and surely, so you get it right this time and don't mark me as something I'm not:
1) Theists believe in a god/gods. Some may admit they can be wrong and there is none, but some will not.
2) Agnostics have no belief; there is no proof.
4) Atheists believe there is no god. Some may admit they can be wrong, and some will not.

I believe there is no god, just I believe natural selection exists. But I am not so stupid as to claim I am 100% right, so stop putting words in my mouth.

Americans and Religion - Quark - 08-29-2006

Quote:Is this a view any of the american posters here can recognize?
Least likely to "let their children marry Athiests"?

Umm... what parents are enforcing arranged marriages? Do American parents really have any ability to "not let" their children marry anyone?

They have the ability to say "I will disown you" just as any parent could, theoretically. That's about as close to "not let" as you can get, especially if your getting more than just moral support from your parents currently:P

It is an issue in my area with Jewish people, in fact. I've seen many relationships not work out with the sticking issue being the Jewish mother did not support it.

Americans and Religion - Archon_Wing - 08-29-2006

Quote:I recently stumbled upon this article.

Is this a view any of the american posters here can recognize?

Oh yes. People would assume I'm into paganism or Satanism whatnot if I don't believe in God or something. Which would be kind of ironic.;)

Anyhow, it's quite hard for me to take the Bible seriously unforunately. Since my ancestors came from Asia, I don't really consider the events that happened in the area around Mesopotmaia to be the absolute and only truth. Therefore, even if I should accept some of the events in the Bible as true, then I can't accept it as the whole story. Maybe there is a God, but I do not think he just conforms to the ideals of western society. And although Asia does have some very oppressive and terrible governments, I don't believe I come from a amoral culture.

So I don't call myself an atheist; I just don't agree with people's descriptions of God.

And can you wonder? What if God is just a being that is far superior than us? The Aztecs thought the Spanish were gods. If there were a race of aliens that were a million years ahead of us evoluition, could we really tell?

But I don't bother with these questions often. Most people don't need to prove that they "love" someone; so what's the big deal here?

Americans and Religion - Archon_Wing - 08-29-2006

It just shows that intelligence has little to deal with belief systems. ;p

Americans and Religion - kandrathe - 08-30-2006

Quote:I think Lemming made a good point. The part about that religious people have more difficulty understanding an atheist than the other way around.
...
Not to be too closeminded, there either is or is not a God, but for sure closemindedness is something more common among religious people than among atheist I find.
To comment on your points; Having known both "rabid" extremes, I would say that both sides are misunderstood, and both sides suffer from closed mindedness. Pig headedness is a pretty common human condition, and I've found that it correlates strongly with the lips of the bell curve. Having too little or too much education seems to cause people to "know better". For those with too little, "anything" could be a right answer so why not theirs and rational argument is useless. For the over-educated, they feel they've earned the right to shut out dissent. It might also be due to the fact that listening patiently to someone is a learned skill.

In general though, I would say that theists are more misunderstood, from the mere fact that there are more of them, and more types of them. They are even misunderstood among themselves, resulting in some of the bloodier conflicts on the planet ( ??? Ya, cuz God likes killing ??? ). About 1% of the population are avowed atheists (maybe it's higher in Holland), and that you are in that minority may make it seem like you are misunderstood more often. Your position is pretty simple to understand, but I think people questioning you might seem like misunderstanding as they seek to further engage (proselytize) you on the topic. But, you'd be surprised at the amount of deist and atheist material dedicated theist intellectuals read to defend their apologetics (Drange, Martin, Mackie, Schellenberg, Russell, etc.).

For interesting backgrounds; I'm currently working on a project with a very dedicated Christian, with whom my conversations refreshingly are intellectually on the order of C.S. Lewis, and his parents were witches. He ran away from home at age 13, and became a migrant farm worker until he put himself through college. My parents were however, that type of Christian that you would call sheep. It seemed to me that they never in their lives challenged what they were told. I was a know it all 16 year old when I rejected everything they ever taught me. It's taken me decades to come around to understanding their simple faith, which I had dismissed as a crutch for a weak mind.


Americans and Religion - Thecla - 08-30-2006

Quote:About 1% of the population are avowed atheists (maybe it's higher in Holland)

The best I could come up with on a quick web search (no idea of the validity of the data -- as the article says it's extremely difficult to assess rates of relgious belief) was

http://www.pitzer.edu/academics/faculty/zu...an/atheism.html

which gives 3-9% for athiest/agnostic/nonbelievers in the US and 39-44% in the Netherlands.

Not sure, though, what you mean by 'avowed atheists'. Would you would draw a distinction between, say, 'Christians' and 'avowed Christians', and where woud you lump non-religiously practicing 'agnostics'?

Americans and Religion - kandrathe - 08-30-2006

Quote:The best I could come up with on a quick web search (no idea of the validity of the data -- as the article says it's extremely difficult to assess rates of relgious belief) was

http://www.pitzer.edu/academics/faculty/zu...an/atheism.html

which gives 3-9% for athiest/agnostic/nonbelievers in the US and 39-44% in the Netherlands.

Not sure, though, what you mean by 'avowed atheists'. Would you would draw a distinction between, say, 'Christians' and 'avowed Christians', and where woud you lump non-religiously practicing 'agnostics'?
Well, from the study...

Quote:By any measure, there are not many atheists in America. While about 14 percent of Americans name no religious preference (Hout and Fischer 2002; Kosmin, Mayer, and Keysar 2001), most of these religious “nones” also say that they believe in God and pray regularly (Hout and Fischer 2002). In the 2000 GSS, only about 3 percent of Americans affirm that “I don’t believe in God,” perhaps the best direct indicator of being an atheist, while another 4.1 percent agree with the statement “I don’t know whether there is a God and I don’t believe there is any way to find out.” Taken together, these “skeptics,” as Hout and Fischer (2002) call them, make up only 7 percent of the population. In fact, only about 1 percent of Americans self-identify as “atheist” or “agnostic,” according to Kosmin et al. (2001). This gap may indicate that many skeptics do hold some form of religious belief, or it may signal the stigma attached to the atheist label.


Americans and Religion - eppie - 08-30-2006

Quote:Well, from the study...

I think only people that have really thought about what they want to believe in an end up in beleiving there is no God, call themselves atheist.
People that don't really believe enough in God to go to church every day, but do mostely because society tells them to, will definetely cal themselves christians (tough luck for them in the afterlife, being there in hell with all the atheists:D)

There will always be less atheist recognized than there really are because there is no atheist society or 'church' of which you can become a member.

Americans and Religion - Occhidiangela - 08-30-2006

Quote:1. Since my ancestors came from Asia, I don't really consider the events that happened in the area around Mesopotmaia to be the absolute and only truth.

2. And although Asia does have some very oppressive and terrible governments, I don't believe I come from a amoral culture.

3. I just don't agree with people's descriptions of God.

4. Most people don't need to prove that they "love" someone; so what's the big deal here?
*claps*

I would be curious as to your opinion regarding the relationship of the Tao with the acceptance of Communism in China, specifically. I have seen a variety of commentary on that. Any insights you can offer?

As to the Cradle of Civilization versus The Middle Kingdom, I note that the Chinese are not getting all hot and bothered about issues in the MIddle East, nor do they seem to be trying to act as honest broker. I think that last is an opportunity missed for them at the UN, but so be it.) No emotional investment, merely a concern for their petrol supplies. Hmm, that is not dissimilar to how the US strategic policy, in a purely objective sense, might have been shaped by Ike era policy.

This whole discussion is interesting, but for my money pales in comparison to de' Tocqueville's observations about Americans and their religion.(s).

Arranged marriages are not the same as "getting one's parents' blessings." That informal source of granting, or witholding, a boon (who pays for the wedding, eh?) will never go away. It's part and parcel to the family experience, the world over.

Occhi

Americans and Religion - kandrathe - 08-30-2006

Quote:I think only people that have really thought about what they want to believe in an end up in beleiving there is no God, call themselves atheist.
People that don't really believe enough in God to go to church every day, but do mostely because society tells them to, will definetely cal themselves christians (tough luck for them in the afterlife, being there in hell with all the atheists:D)

There will always be less atheist recognized than there really are because there is no atheist society or 'church' of which you can become a member.
I think the difference is between those that are unsure if there is a God, those that are sure there is not a God, and those who would say "I am an atheist."

You have some strange notions about the religious. Society doesn't tell people to go to church (everyday or even once a week). I would say the society I live in tells people to buy lots of things and to worship money, and Sunday is for watching nuevo-gladiators in the arena. I suppose the only way your neighbor could tell if you were religious would by how often you showed up in church, but then its really none of their business. The Bible merely says "Observe the sabbath", and from what I can tell, it would be more important to talk with God everyday anyway. Jesus boiled it down to two rules, "Love God ernestly" and "Love one another" which consequently if everyone did, they would be following all the other rules.

Americans and Religion - Occhidiangela - 08-30-2006

Quote: Jesus boiled it down to two rules, "Love God ernestly" and "Love one another" which consequently if everyone did, they would be following all the other rules.
Of course, that all depends on what "love" is, if I may misquote William Jefferson Clinton at this point.

"What's love but a second hand emotion?"
"Love is sacrifice"
"Love is a score of zero points in tennis"
"Love is, whatever you make it."

So, which is it? :lol:

Occhi

Americans and Religion - --Pete - 08-30-2006

Hi,

Quote:I think the difference is between those that are unsure if there is a God, those that are sure there is not a God, and those who would say "I am an atheist."
I think you are missing a major point. Most of the population never even consider this question. In Europe and the Americas, most people are born into some form of Christianity and never question it. They may not attend services, they may be moral or criminals, they may be devote or totally apathetic. But, invariably, when asked they claim to be Cristian.

Quote:Society doesn't tell people to go to church (everyday or even once a week). I would say the society I live in tells people to buy lots of things and to worship money, . . .
You are mixing up society in the large (advertising, media, etc.) and society in the small (co-workers, neighbors, etc.). As a professed atheist, I constantly receive invitations to join acquaintances at their services. Since I always reject these invitation, I am consequently excluded from the social life of most of these acquaintances because their social life revolves around their church community.

(Aside) As to the arrogance of atheists, that comes from the fact that they've at least thought about the issue. I've often asked my religious friends what it is that they believe and how that distinguishes their particular brand of Christianity from all others. In over forty years of doing this, I've found two people (other than ordained ministers) who could give me a coherent answer. The usual answer is that they belong to the specific congregation (note, not 'sect') because the people there are nice, friendly, and work and play together. That's not religion, that's a social club. But anyone who claims that religion is important enough to be an issue and worth defending and yet does not examine the issue is a fool. And if recognizing and despising ignorance makes me arrogant, then so be it.

--Pete




Americans and Religion - Rhydderch Hael - 08-30-2006

Quote:I think the difference is between those that are unsure if there is a God,
Those are agnostics...

Quote:those that are sure there is not a God,
...and those would be atheists...
Quote:and those who would say "I am an atheist."
...who may not know the difference between an agnostic and an atheist. ;)

Americans and Religion - Ashock - 08-30-2006

Quote:I have no problem with people who believe what they do because they questioned it, thought about it, and came to that conclusion.

I have a problem with those who simply believe what they are told.
Wow, you're just the expert on atheists aren't you? Let's go through this, slowly and surely, so you get it right this time and don't mark me as something I'm not:
1) Theists believe in a god/gods. Some may admit they can be wrong and there is none, but some will not.
2) Agnostics have no belief; there is no proof.
4) Atheists believe there is no god. Some may admit they can be wrong, and some will not.

I believe there is no god, just I believe natural selection exists. But I am not so stupid as to claim I am 100% right, so stop putting words in my mouth.


First off, there are exceptions to every rule. If 95% of atheists are arrogant in their beliefs, I can with supreme confidence state that atheists are arrogant. If you'd like, I can add the word "generally" to it, *shrug*.

Second, thanks for the definitions. See, I just looked them up in my dictionary right before posting, so I appreciate the clarification.

Third, an Atheist who admits that they might be wrong is no longer an Atheist, but an Agnostic.... possibly bordering on Atheism. I happen to be in the category, just for the record.

I suggest that *you* should go and look up the definitions.


Now for the definition of "arrogant" from Websters - 1 : exaggerating or disposed to exaggerate one's own worth or importance often by an overbearing manner <an arrogant official>

Add "dismissive" to that, and that is a perfect picture of Atheists when it comes to those of faith.... generally. I don't necessarily mean you. K?


-A


Americans and Religion - Occhidiangela - 08-30-2006

Quote:Add "dismissive" to that, and that is a perfect picture of Atheists when it comes to those of faith . . .
-A
For a rogue's gallery of such persons, you can wander over to JREF and watch the self importance swirl. You'll also find some very interesting other stuff, much of it thought provoking.

For fun with old scriptural references, go here.

Occhi

Americans and Religion - eppie - 08-30-2006

Quote:(Aside) As to the arrogance of atheists, that comes from the fact that they've at least thought about the issue. I've often asked my religious friends what it is that they believe and how that distinguishes their particular brand of Christianity from all others. In over forty years of doing this, I've found two people (other than ordained ministers) who could give me a coherent answer. The usual answer is that they belong to the specific congregation (note, not 'sect') because the people there are nice, friendly, and work and play together. That's not religion, that's a social club. But anyone who claims that religion is important enough to be an issue and worth defending and yet does not examine the issue is a fool. And if recognizing and despising ignorance makes me arrogant, then so be it.
--Pete

I like the way you are thinking.


When I was studying chemistry I had a fellow student that was very religious (one of those very tough dutch forms of protestantism). At least he was thinking about his religion very much but, (call me arrogant) what he said sounden very ridiculous to me.
He seriously thought the earth was only around 6000 years old. Phenomena like the Grand Canyon he explained with actions of God, and the layer structure and dinosaur bones were 'other things'. Carbon dating was not correct because the earths magnetic field would swith polarity once in a while.
So this guy was trying to use all kind of scientific 'proofs' (that made no sense) that would make his belief correct.
I know there are more (deeply) religious people in the world of natural sciences...something I can't really understand.