Quote:This is plain and simply wrong. Passive uncrushability is very valid for any race -- especially with the ZA/badge gear from 2.3.

Passive uncrushable is attainable for anyone in a mix of T5, ZA and badge gear. It is not even hard.

Quote:Just the opposite. It's a health bonus, not a stamina bonus. It is applied after everything, and thus scales with even normally non-scaling health buffs (such as Flasks).

Quote:It's attainable, but you give up a lot of health in doing so. As I said, Skan and I discussed this a bit and it was only seen as possible with T6 gear (Hyjal/BT) and even then, in order to attain it, non-Tauren Warriors would have to sacrifice a good deal of health (as I seem to remember and Skan can correct me on this, I asked Skan if any of the CM Warriors were trying this and his basic response was no, they'd have to give up too much health). This was talked about several months ago, probably around August or September on the EJ boards and people were discussing how Nihilium's main tank could pull it off and everyone agreed that it was only really possible due to him being Tauren as non-Taurens couldn't give up the necessary stamina to get passive uncrushability. That 5% health difference allowed him to get non-stamina enchants (like the +defense to bracers) and go with Purple and Green (to get some stamina with either defense, parry, dodge, block, str, or agi) gems to try and get socket bonuses (even more avoidance) as well that non-Tauren Warriors were having to look at mostly solids to maximize stamina.

Quote:If it's really such a huge, massive issue, roll Horde.

Quote:I'm still trying to figure out where this becomes a "massive advantage" compared to other racials. Yes it gives a tauren maintank a bit more of a health pool for those oh shi...moments. But we're still talking about on average a thousand or so hit points when the raiding game is filled with bosses that hit for 6 to 10 times that. No one is screaming about the additional 1% dodge that night elven tanks have to completely negate all incoming damage. Nor is anyone talking about a undead tank who can negate fear mechanics in defensive stance - and yes I now that fear no longer drops aggro but if you can't see why being feared and beat on is a bad thing­™ then there isn't much more to discuss. There are other tank racials that I could go into detail about but the bottom line is that in the TBC raid environment an extra 5% health just doesn't seem to be as massive a bonus to me.

Quote:No more AR + Prep in 2.3.2:
It's really too bad you have to give up all the tasty mid-combat talents to get Shadowstep. I'd love to try raiding with it and still be competitive.

Quote:Passive uncrushable is attainable and viable even in T5 instances (it revolves around shield block rating). It is not something you use on every fight due to the Effective Health loss, but it is viable -- and for every race.

I spend every day talking about stuff like this, with people who have achieved it -- without ever setting foot in Hyjal or Black Temple.

Quote:I'm not talking about specific fights, I'm talking about all fights. Only Tauren can achieve uncrushable on every single fight with T6 gear and not give up the health to attain it. For a non-Tauren to achieve uncrushable on every fight, they would have to give up on the order of 1k to 1.5k health, for Tauren, this is a non-issue due to their racial. The difference here is that you're thinking of only specific fights while the main tank of Nilihum was setting up to do it for all fights and this is what the discussion several months back on EJ was all about and what I'm talking about. Non-Tauren Warriors cannot achieve passive uncrushable at all times without sacrificing a lot of health and that is what I've been talking about (and my discussion with Skan a few months back when I saw the thread on EJ).

Quote:Fear is not an issue because every warrior who knows how to stance-dance can negate it -- and that's without considering Fear Ward. In the big scheme of things, when it comes to tanking, Will of the Forsaken is rather lackluster.

Quote:No, as I said before, it's not gamebreaking, but it gives Tauren a marked advantage when you talk about progression.... for no good reason at all that I can see.

Quote:It's attainable, but you give up a lot of health in doing so. As I said, Skan and I discussed this a bit and it was only seen as possible with T6 gear (Hyjal/BT) and even then, in order to attain it, non-Tauren Warriors would have to sacrifice a good deal of health (as I seem to remember and Skan can correct me on this, I asked Skan if any of the CM Warriors were trying this and his basic response was no, they'd have to give up too much health).

Quote:Well, I don't really recall discussing Tauren at all. It's true that neither of our warriors are going for passive uncrushability, partly because of the health drop (~2k) and partly because getting crushed just isn't really a huge deal in T6 content. The last two bosses of Hyjal and the last two out of three bosses in BT can't crush, mostly because they hit so hard that crushes would be on the order of 13k to 15k for a single hit (or in the case of Illidan, because he attacks very, very quickly and you have to save shield block for Shear). What matters when a boss hits really hard but can't crush is making sure you survive and avoid spikes. The best way to do that is stamina to absorb spikes, and expertise to avoid parry-bombs.

A passive-uncrushable set should be useful in T5 content, though, especially with ZA gear. It would probably be better than most alternatives for, say, Al'ar and Karathress, where damage spikes only really occur through crushes. Obviously if someone can pull it off without dipping below 21k hp, I guess you could wear it all the time, but again, if you can do that, you should be able to get even more hp for all those bosses that can't crush.

Quote:Yes they can negate it as I said above. Thing is with WotF you can negate it in defensive stance. No worries about mistiming the 'zerker switch and getting stomped. No worries about bossmod timers being off, etc. Just pop and go.

Quote:*sigh* I guess given our past interaction on the subject of the viability druid tanks I should have seen that no matter what, gods be damned, you won't see any other side than the one you want to see.

Quote:If you think 1k life difference between a Tauren MT and a non-tauren MT is such an advantage I won't dissuade you. I think its a nice racial that fits the lore of the race and chances are if your 20k MT is getting wafflestomped in a raid he'd get wafflestomped at 21k too.

Quote:Please continue this conversation respectfully and with facts on both sides. That's not an admonishment, it's a interested request. I want to see where this goes as I'm worried that when WotlK shows up that if I don't roll a Tauren DK I'll be gimped again (My MT was a sexy troll) if I spec him Cold/Unholy to tank.

Cheers,
~Frag B)

Edit: Though perhaps in a different thread? Gogo hijack.

Quote:If they keep with lore (haha) DKs will be Humans and Orcs (possible in Human bodies).

Quote:I still fail to see how my extra HP is vastly, hugely superior to your additional mitigation or Expertise. If I eat a parry bomb because my Expertise wasn't as high as a Human's, I've just lost a hell of a lot more HP than my little ~1k bonus.

Quote:Your argument is just a bunch of whining nonsense to my ears; if this was a serious issue, Blizzard would have addressed it long ago: very likely before TBC even arrived.

Quote:And it's not my fault you chose the wrong faction:)

Quote:and if that's the case, I'm fretting about being on of the 'gimped' races for tanking Horde-side again.

Quote:1k health is NOT insignificant on any level of content. Feel free to dismiss it if you must, but I consider the fact that Tauren can get what amounts to two additional Flasks to be too much.

Quote:Your argument is just a bunch of whining nonsense to my ears; if this was a serious issue, Blizzard would have addressed it long ago: very likely before TBC even arrived.

And it's not my fault you chose the wrong faction:)