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+--- Thread: So now, it seems non-conformity is a form of mental illness (/thread-15925.html)
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RE: So now, it seems non-conformity is a form of mental illness - FireIceTalon - 05-16-2014
(05-16-2014, 01:27 PM)Tal Wrote:(05-15-2014, 05:15 PM)FireIceTalon Wrote:(05-14-2014, 02:21 PM)Tal Wrote: This is why you will remain a pseudo-intellectual poseur with delusions that your voice means anything more than farting in a wind tunnel.
Pffft. Dream on.
The only pseudo-intellectuals here are the psychiatrists who come up with incorrect diagnosis or make up new ones entirely based on pure ideological pandering to what the ruling class deems to be "the norm" or "acceptable". If you deny that this takes place in our society, you either A. gullible/naive with a very rosy picture of things, or B. you are an apologist for it.
Also, you can sit here and throw around idealist statements like "society needs more libraries and librarians" or that "education needs a complete re-haul that teaches critical thinking" all you want, and it means nothing - at the end of the day the capitalist system will have these things as IT deems necessary to be in line with profitability, not as to what YOU (or pretty much anyone else) thinks it ought to be. If you think any major meaningful changes to education are going occur under the current way of things, better snap out that dream and get back to reality, because you will be sorely disappointed I'm afraid.
No what I'm pointing out is that your education and critical thinking skills are sorely lacking. You are very much a product of the system you decry.
And once again, I'll point out, you have no clue as to what you are talking about. I don't think you know what "critical thinking" is.
RE: So now, it seems non-conformity is a form of mental illness - FireIceTalon - 05-16-2014
(05-16-2014, 03:27 PM)kandrathe Wrote: I would also point out that the "capitalist" K-12 education system is predominantly not. It is an agency of the State, and in fact, suffers the common problems that plague State (democratic, socialist or communist, you pick) run institutions. Yah, yah, I know what he's thinking... It's still enveloped in the broader society... Pffft. What about these so-called communist radicals? What about their community college? What about their supposedly radical extremist splinter cell? I would guess they "buy" their groceries, not grow them. I would guess they "buy" their clothing, not weave it and sew it. I would guess they maybe have a car, and if so, probably pay for licenses, insurance, and "buy" gas from the evil oil companies. I would guess they take out loans from the evil bankers for school. I would guess they've also got their hands out for every possible government subsidy they can get.
So, I would say they should look in the mirror and tell us what makes any of these comrades not part and parcel of the Capitalist system? If they want change, then they need to change their lifestyle to their bloviated ideals, or continue to flog everyone around them and come off as yet another angry self-hating hypocrite who is deluded into thinking their incoherent rants are making a difference. Don't tell me communism is better. Show me.
The absurdity in this is pretty striking (to the point where if I didn't know your views, I would think you are trolling), but I will attempt to reply in as civil as a manner as possible.
Firstly, the State itself is an agent of the capitalist system - despite the fantastic notion that libertarians make that you can have a capitalist system without one or with one that is so miniscule you wont even know is there. Well I suppose you could - for about a week maybe before it all comes crashing down and then you DO have a revolution, civil war or some other form of conflict.
Secondly. Neither communism nor capitalism for that matter are lifestyles. Minor detail there. And of course they do those things - they are making a rational economic decision that is available to them, and in many (most?) cases, there isn't really any other option. Which proves my and their point - that their lives are dictated entirely by and around the social relationships of capitalism. I'm a communist, but I wear t-shirts that were made by some poor and exploited factory worker in Honduras. Why? Because clothing is a basic necessity, and therefore I have little choice in the matter. However, that doesn't mean I support the current way of things. Nor does it mean I can single-handedly change it. That doesn't make me a hypocrite, that just means I am making a rational economic decision available to me, based on a particular set of circumstances.
And even if it were a lifestyle, you expecting them to be able to live their "lifestyle" and actually "demonstrate" the superiority of communism (all while living in a capitalist world!) is plain shorted sighted and silly. One does not simply opt out of capitalism (or whatever predominant mode of production that defines and influences the vast majority of human behavior and the social relationships of which they constitute) and to think that one can do this is completely unrealistic for obvious reasons. And you wonder why I think libertarians are complete idealists living in a fantasy world. This is exactly why. The world doesn't work how you think it does from up there in your ivory tower.
Quote:The sad thing is they (and every other closed minded political partisan unwilling to respect their opponents) really are making a difference. They make the world an angrier, hateful place.
Ah yes, more 'great man theories' to explain why the world sucks so badly. Cause blaming an individual, or a group (or even multiple groups) is just so much easier, is it not? Those damn commies (replace that with right-wingers too for the sake of being unbiased if you must), its all their fault!!!
Get real man. There IS NO such thing as bi-partisan politics, and the term itself is, to put it nicely, a load of horseshit. Politics is the expression and embodiment of objective 'interests' (ultimately in the context of class). If you are looking for multi-partisan politics and think we can just all put our differences aside and everything is gonna be honkey dory, you've come to the wrong place my friend and will be in for big disappointment. And attributing the anger and hate in the world to any specific political group, whether it is those who share my own views or the direct opposite, is again short-sighted and silly.
RE: So now, it seems non-conformity is a form of mental illness - kandrathe - 05-16-2014
(05-16-2014, 04:01 PM)FireIceTalon Wrote: Ah yes, more 'great man theories' to explain why the world sucks so badly. Those damn commies (replace that with right-wingers too for the sake of being unbiased if you must), its all their fault!!!No, the opposite (if there is such a thing as the "little man theory"). There is too much myopia, and too much irrational short term self interest. Without dialog and compromises, we form a cacophony of disparate views, and no solutions. We don't need "great", we need "reasonable".
(05-16-2014, 04:01 PM)FireIceTalon Wrote: Politics is...Let's compare and contrast...
according to Wikipedia Wrote:the ...practice and theory of influencing other people on a civic or individual level. More narrowly, it refers to achieving and exercising positions of governance — organized control over a human community, particularly a state.
according to FireIceTalon Wrote:... the expression and embodiment of 'interests' (ultimately in the context of class).
I would say the expression of interests is; a) a conversation, b) possibly a debate, or c) an argument. Ultimately, for you, everything is in context to class. You could just as well replace that with "ummmm", since its an superfluous bit of dialog. I would like a peanut butter and jelly sandwich is an expression of interest, but not at all political (afaik).
(05-16-2014, 04:01 PM)FireIceTalon Wrote: The absurdity in this is pretty striking, but I will attempt to reply in as civil as a manner as possible.Of course, for us to not be absurd, we'd need to be communists. No one ever walked their communist talk, ever. No one ever formed a commune, ever.
Quote:Firstly, the State itself is an agent of the capitalist system - despite the fantastic notion that libertarians make that you can have a capitalist system without one or with one that is so miniscule you wont even know is there. Well I suppose you could - for about a week maybe before it all comes crashing down and then you DO have a revolution.This is an "all or none" fallacy. Less does not mean zero. Our government(s), due to their immense size, are in fact a huge part of the economy. Point made. I think I have frequently said many times that government is a necessary part of an ordered society. What the American failed experiment was is the possibility of crafting a government which did not ultimately oppress some people for the benefit of others. Where we are now in the US is that a small minority of "wealthy elite" through government, control the lives of a tended majority trapped in a system bereft of opportunity, and who minimally supplement a small minority of poor.
However, you imply there is no difference between the government and the capitalists. Au contrair, mon ami. The corporations (without State coercion) have no power over my lifestyle, unless I am entirely blacklisted and need to trade my labor for goods. Government has coercive power, through law, and police, and punishment. I can resist powerful business interests, if I live in a just society. When government is corrupted, and powerful, I have no recourse but to capitulate to the whims of the State. It seems in part, we have the same goals. I, however, can live equitably with rich people, and powerful corporations as long as we have individual liberty and protected rights in a fair and free State truly governed by "the will of the people".
The third leg of your implication is that if there is no difference, then schools are an apparatchik of corporate interest. Reams of data and studies refute this notion. Here is yet another.
Quote:Secondly. Neither communism nor capitalism for that matter are lifestyles. Minor detail there.You are not communism. I am not capitalism. You and I have lifestyles. Semantics aside.
Quote:And of course they do those things - they are making a rational economic decision that is available to them, and in many (most?) cases, there isn't really any other option. Which proves my and their point - that their lives are dictated entirely by and around the social relationships of capitalism. I'm a communist, but I wear t-shirts that were made by some poor and exploited factory worker in Honduras. Why? Because clothing is a basic necessity, and therefore I have little choice in the matter.Have you ever studied the Amana communities? If you, and your cadre of like minded comrades so desired you could "stick it to the man". Where, the man, in this case is capitalism. Choose not to participate. Give your Marx t-shirt to some other worthy, but less committed radical wannabe. Grow some flax or cotten, and make something yourself. {not necessarily in that order...}
Quote:However, that doesn't mean I support the current way of things. Nor does it mean I can single-handedly change it. That doesn't make me a hypocrite, that just means I am making a rational economic decision based on a particular set of circumstances.You are making the choices offered to you by capitalists, and taking the easy road. Walk your talk, and then tell me how great it is/was.
RE: So now, it seems non-conformity is a form of mental illness - Jester - 05-16-2014
(05-16-2014, 04:01 PM)FireIceTalon Wrote: Neither communism nor capitalism for that matter are lifestyles. Minor detail there. And of course they do those things - they are making a rational economic decision that is available to them, and in many (most?) cases, there isn't really any other option. Which proves my and their point - that their lives are dictated entirely by and around the social relationships of capitalism. I'm a communist, but I wear t-shirts that were made by some poor and exploited factory worker in Honduras. Why? Because clothing is a basic necessity, and therefore I have little choice in the matter. However, that doesn't mean I support the current way of things. Nor does it mean I can single-handedly change it. That doesn't make me a hypocrite, that just means I am making a rational economic decision available to me, based on a particular set of circumstances.
It takes about 5 seconds with google to find a hundred links to t-shirts not manufactured in Honduras, or in any other poor country. You have plenty of choice in the matter. If you choose not to exercise it, because it wouldn't be a "rational economic decision," then I can only say: I think that's the whole point of the critique.
-Jester
RE: So now, it seems non-conformity is a form of mental illness - Alram - 05-16-2014
As a practical matter this new diagnostic code will be utilized only if insurance companies will reimburse the treatment fees.
RE: So now, it seems non-conformity is a form of mental illness - Tal - 05-27-2014
(05-16-2014, 03:36 PM)FireIceTalon Wrote: And once again, I'll point out, you have no clue as to what you are talking about. I don't think you know what "critical thinking" is.
One more time then I'll step out and do something more productive like yell at the wall.
Of the two of us - I'm not the one that presents and thinks about only the side of an argument they support. Nor am I the one who thinks Google is a one-stop shop for research. (Hint for you - it's not by any stretch of the imagination)
I work in a profession that thrives on research. My job responsibility requires me to research any topic from every angle using authoritative sources. I've been trained to also research the author of a source to determine whether or not they have authority to speak on a subject or are they just bullshittin' around.