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Hardware for Wrath - Kevin - 12-17-2008
Quote:Let me ask this. Given what you said about the performance boost even a lower performing dual-core chip can bring, how easy or hard is it to (assuming my Dell Dimension desktop case can fit one) replace my 3 year old motherboard with a dual-core motherboard, typically?
I kind of assume there is no need to do a fresh OS install or anything annoying like that, but perhaps some drivers would need updating (running WinXP).
Also, if I decide to go a more painful route, is going with a 64 bit CPU worth it, even though it'd require a fresh 64 bit OS install and such?
XP's install repair function is actually relatively decent. I've actually got an install that has gone through 3 different motherboards now. Of course it doesn't always work and you may end up having to do a re-install anyway so I end up making sure all my back-ups are good before I do it, but I've just plopped a new mobo processor in a few times, hooked up the drive and let XP get itself working with the new hardware.
Hardware for Wrath - RTM - 12-18-2008
Dell's cases and power supplies are somewhat proprietary, so I don't think you can just plop any old motherboard from off the shelf into your Dimension. Even if you could get one to fit, they screw up the pin-outs on their power supplies just enough that it won't work. This was the case (haha!) a few years ago; they may have changed their policy by now.
Just something to think about.:)
Hardware for Wrath - Mordekhuul - 12-18-2008
Quote:Dell's cases and power supplies are somewhat proprietary, so I don't think you can just plop any old motherboard from off the shelf into your Dimension. Even if you could get one to fit, they screw up the pin-outs on their power supplies just enough that it won't work. This was the case (haha!) a few years ago; they may have changed their policy by now.
Just something to think about.:)
I'm not sure that's really true. Everything in the Dimension desktop is pretty much standard issue. I replaced the power supply and video card last year even, by going to Fry's Electronics and buying something - easy.
Perhaps the mother board is a different matter, but I think some of the common wisdom that Dell computers are made with customized parts to prevent ordering upgrades from anyone but Dell is a bit outdated.
Hardware for Wrath - RTM - 12-19-2008
Quote:I'm not sure that's really true. Everything in the Dimension desktop is pretty much standard issue. I replaced the power supply and video card last year even, by going to Fry's Electronics and buying something - easy.
Perhaps the mother board is a different matter, but I think some of the common wisdom that Dell computers are made with customized parts to prevent ordering upgrades from anyone but Dell is a bit outdated.
You might be right, now that I think about it. I was recalling a few tests we take at work in order to qualify for Dell premium support (which lets us bypass the phone tech troubleshooting) but that only applied to their business Optiplex line. Back before they merged the two names.
Hardware for Wrath - Mordekhuul - 12-19-2008
Quote:You might be right, now that I think about it. I was recalling a few tests we take at work in order to qualify for Dell premium support (which lets us bypass the phone tech troubleshooting) but that only applied to their business Optiplex line. Back before they merged the two names.
After not seeing much difference in frame rates when running around with zero mods last night vs. having 50 or so, I think I'm going to go ahead and look to upgrade the motherboard/CPU.
Do the recommendations given early in this thread still stand? Is it tricky to pick a mother board that fits a case? The case seems to be a standard size, 2 foot high (or so) case - not sure if it is cut weird to only fit certain boards or not. Everything else has been easily replacable, but...
I'd be looking to spend 2-3 hundred dollars, if that is enough to get a good mother board with some longevity to it that will generate much higher FPS than I see now.
Thoughts?
Hardware for Wrath - RTM - 12-19-2008
Cases & motherboards follow "form factors". What model Dimension do you have? If it's 3 years old then you probably have an ATX form factor, which means that, when looking for a motherboard, make sure it carries the ATX moniker. There is a newer form factor called BTX that swapped around the layout of components on the motherboard and has some strict guidelines for fan placement/airflow/etc., but I'm pretty sure it wasn't widespread (or even around) 3 years ago.
EDIT: something else to think about is that you will be swapping all your old equipment to this new motherboard. Some components may not be compatible, depending on what you get- RAM, hard drive interface, and video card specifically. It all depends on your current model. I can try to look up your model in our premier support documentation through Dell and see how bad it will be.:)
Hardware for Wrath - Artega - 12-19-2008
Increasing the amount of RAM you have (well, within reason; if you already have 4GB you really don't need more) is always gonna be the cheapest method of breathing life back into an old rig. Increasing the amount of available physical memory your system has will reduce usage of virtual memory, which in turn significantly reduces the load on your CPU. For games like WoW, which are generally extremely CPU-intensive (it's why you're seeing such significant gains with multicore procs), this can make all the difference in the world, though Shattrath/Dalaran are gonna perform for crap no matter what kinda rig you're running.
For folks still using DDR1 RAM (my old box uses it), NewEgg's selling 2x1GB of Corsair ValueSelect for $65 ($25 after rebate.) It doesn't get much better than that. My old box was running 512MB, and upgrading to 2GB was by far what made the most difference, even though I did upgrade its decrepit 9600XT to a slightly more youthful X1550.
Replacing CPUs, mobos, and even GPUs can sometimes be more trouble than it's worth - you can build a brand-new rig for about $500 USD these days, and it'll run anything out there (yes, even Crysis) at solid settings and dependable framerates. If you recycle peripherals like keyboards, mice, and monitors, just building yourself a new rig may end up being cheaper than upgrading an existing one, especially if your existing one is behind the times when it comes to card slots (like my old box, which only has AGP x8 and no PCIe.)
Hardware for Wrath - Mordekhuul - 12-20-2008
So, I have a Dell Dimension 8400, looks like.
What should I look for either in my computer manager device listing or inside the case when I open it, to collect data needed to know what kind of MoBo would fit the case, work with existing accessories, etc.
I can list everything here to get thoughts on whether it makes sense to ditch some old equipment/ram for newer things with a new motherboard, as well, but I need to know what to look for =)
Some info gleaned so far:
Service Tag 76Z8J71
Express Service Code 15659458093
Processor Intel® Pentium® 4 CPU 3.20GHz
Processor Speed 3.12 GHz
Memory (RAM) 4096 MB
Operating System Microsoft Windows XP Professional
Operating System Version 5.1.2600
Specifications form my owner manual:
Processor type Intel® Pentium® 4 with HT Technology
Cache 512 KB, 1 MB, or 2 MB
Type 400- and 533-MHz DDR2 unbuffered SDRAM
Memory connectors four
Memory capacities 256 MB, 512 MB, or 1 GB, non-ECC
Minimum memory 256 MB
Maximum memory 4 GB
NOTE: See "Addressing Memory With 4-GB Configurations" on
page 77 to verify the amount of memory available to the operating
system.
BIOS address F0000h
Computer Information
Chipset Intel 925X Express or Intel 925XE Express
DMA channels eight
Interrupt levels 24
BIOS chip (NVRAM) 4-Mb
NIC Integrated network interface capable of 10/100/1000
communication.
System clock 800- or 1066-MHz data rate (depending on your processor)
Video
Type PCI Express
Audio
Type ADI 1980 AC97 Codec
Expansion Bus
Bus type PCI 2.3
PCI Express x1 and x16
Bus speed PCI: 33 MHz
PCI Express:
x1 slot bidirectional speed - 500 MB/s
x16 slot bidirectional speed - 8 GB/s
PCI
connectors three
connector size 120 pins
connector data width (maximum) 32 bits
PCI Express
connector one x1
connector size 36 pins
connector data width (maximum) 1 PCI Express lane
PCI Express
connector one x16
connector size 164 pins
connector data width (maximum) 16 PCI Express lanes
Drives
Externally accessible:
two 3.5-inch drive bays
two 5.25-inch drive bays
Available devices Serial ATA drive, floppy drive, Zip drive, USB memory devices, CD
drive, CD-RW drive, DVD drive, DVD-RW drive, and DVD and
CD-RW combo drive
Internally accessible:
two bays for 1-inch high hard drives
Drives
Externally accessible:
two 3.5-inch drive bays
two 5.25-inch drive bays
Available devices Serial ATA drive, floppy drive, Zip drive, USB memory devices, CD
drive, CD-RW drive, DVD drive, DVD-RW drive, and DVD and
CD-RW combo drive
Internally accessible:
two bays for 1-inch high hard drives
Controls and Lights
Power control push button
Power light green light â Blinking green in sleep state; solid green for power-on
state.
amber light â Blinking amber indicates a problem with an installed
device; solid amber indicates an internal power problem (see "Power
Problems" on page 44).
Hard-drive access light green
Link integrity light (on integrated
network adapter)
green light â A good connection exists between a 10-Mbps
network and the computer.
orange light â A good connection exists between a 100-Mbps
network and the computer.
yellow light â A good connection exists between a 1 Gb (or
1000-Mbps) network and the computer.
off (no light) â The computer is not detecting a physical
connection to the network.
Activity light (on integrated network
adapter)
yellow blinking light
Diagnostic lights four lights on the back panel (See "Diagnostic Lights" on page 51.)
Standby power light AUX_PWR on the system board
Physical
Height 42.5 cm (16.7 inches)
Width 18.1 cm (7.1 inches)
Depth 44.7 cm (17.6 inches)
Weight 12.7 kg (28 lbs)
Hardware for Wrath - Artega - 12-21-2008
Good to know you're using green lights instead of purple ones ;P
Upgrading to a multicore proc would be a big change, but it's entirely possible that you've got the wrong mobo for one (I don't think P4 sockets are compatible with multicore procs, someone correct me if I'm wrong), in which case it'd be more trouble than it's worth.
What's your GPU? How much RAM does it have? You specs list a PCIe x16 slot, so I'm guessing that's what it's running in.
Hardware for Wrath - RTM - 12-21-2008
Quote:So, I have a Dell Dimension 8400, looks like.
I'm not at work to grab specifics, but from searching around the net it looks like the 8400 uses a microATX form factor motherboard. Your current CPU is pretty close to the max it can support (max being in the neighborhood of 3.6Ghz), and it doesn't support dual-core CPUs. The good news is that your hard drive interface (SATA) and video card (PCI-E) are current, so you could theoretically swap them to a new motherboard without an issue. You may need new memory depending on what you get.
I found lots of posts about updating the motherboard in a Dimension 8400, but none really admitting to success- most of the replies were along the lines of "I'm pretty sure Dell stuff is proprietary". I always thought that, form-factor wise, an ATX motherboard was an ATX motherboard as far as the dimensions and mounting holes went. The one thing I did see was that the front panel connectors on Dells (i.e. the power switch, lights, etc.) are proprietary, so that you can't just plug them in to a new motherboard and expect them to work. Those are usually just little jumpers running to cables, so if you wanted to bust out an exacto knife you could probably splice together something that worked, but I don't know if that would be worth the time and effort.
Hardware for Wrath - Concillian - 12-22-2008
You want a dual core. Your mobo may support a Pentium-D (old and out of production), but new mobo is probably the best route.
You will need an OS, because your Dell OEM version is going to be tied to that motherboard.
- Vista Home Premium OEM version ~$100
- Retail Upgrade version ~$125
The difference is that the OEM version will activate on one motherboard and then if you upgrade you need to re-purchase. The retail version can be moved to new hardware easier.
you can technically use your current memory, depending on the processor. If you move to vista, you probably want a little more than you have now. If you stick with XP, whatever you have now will give you the same performance. Memory will mostly affect instance load times and flying. With several 2x2GB kits (4 GB total) DDR2-800 at Newegg for under $40 if you had to buy anything, it would almost make sense to just completely replace it with something like that.
Processor is all still valid from up there, though the deals are not current. A 4850e + 780G microATX board is probably the least expensive bet for adequate WoW performance. I just looked and there was a gigbyte board at $75 with a rebate to bring it down to $60, and the 4850e is $57 w free shipping.
Video cards you have to look around at the after rebate deals for the good cards. When Vor_lord was buying the 9600GTs were $75 after rebate. Now they're about the same, but there's an ATI HD4670 at $55 after rebate. The 9600GT is probably a hair faster, but $55 for a 4670 is a great deal.
so adding up mobo + CPU + RAM there is ~$175 / ~$160 After rebate. Then you tack on video card of choice (4670 or 9600GT or 9800GT are the current good deals in order of slowest to fastest, with very little difference between 4670 & 9600GT but a little bigger jump to the 9800GT, which are closer to $100). Then if you need an OS, you have to add another $100.
Hardware for Wrath - Artega - 12-22-2008
Probably cheaper and certainly easier to just build a whole new system if you're gonna replace the mobo<_<
Hardware for Wrath - Concillian - 12-22-2008
Quote:Probably cheaper and certainly easier to just build a whole new system if you're gonna replace the mobo<_<
You will not get cheaper for something worthwhile. It's easier, but definitely not cheaper.
He expressed interest in $2-300. Please show me your $2-300 whole computer purchase. What I outlined is around $250 before OS. If you consider that he'll probably have to purchase an OS too, it's around $350. Show me a $350 computer and I'll show you a computer that doesn't have an adequate video card to run WoW well. It'll probably also have 2GB RAM instead of 4, it may or may not have a dual core. Pre-builts tend to charge up the butt for a halfway decent video card and for RAM upgrades. At Dell, they charge double what you can get 4GB brand new to upgrade from 2GB to 4GB.
Please feel free to prove me wrong by linking an actual computer comparable to what I suggested less than double the $350 (That is, dual core / 4GB / video card comparable to a 4670 or 9600GT). I don't think you can.
I started this thread in order to help people who got a little blindsided by Wrath taking significantly more hardware in order to run well. Many of these people are on an extreme budget or are in a situation where they really didn't want to make a computer purchase at this time, so are trying to get into a workable situation as cheap as possible.
It provides very specific information about what options are good performance at a good value for the money. Where's your specific information? Without a supporting link of where to buy your imaginary cheap computer statement isn't really all that helpful.
Hardware for Wrath - RTM - 12-22-2008
He's got 4gb of RAM already (which should be plenty for even Vista), and he replaced the video card last year. Hard drive is SATA, so no need to worry about that working with a new motherboard. So looking at a worst-case scenario here, you'd have to tack on the cost of a new case to Conc's estimate, but subtract the negligible memory cost if you find something that works with your current RAM.
I couldn't find the pin-out schematics for the Dimension 8400 motherboard, so unfortunately I can't tell you if they're standard or not.:( A new case can be had for as little as $35 or less, but you tend to get what you pay for. I'd spring for something a bit more upscale. Your current power supply will probably work and should save you a bit of money on a case if you can transfer it, since some cases charge more for the power supply.
In the end it's still going to be cheaper than buying a new machine.
Hardware for Wrath - Mordekhuul - 12-22-2008
So yesterday I went and purchased a Gigabyte GA-EP43-DS3L motherboard, an Intel Core 2 Duo 8500 Processor, and a new case that would fit the new mobo.
After construction, I first tried running it without doing a fresh OS install, just to see how it would deal (XP Pro). Interestingly, it starts up, but either druing the Login screen, while loading, or shortly after logging in, the whole system would freeze up (whatever the screen graphics were at the time would never change, nothing was happening - complete freeze up).
Fine, I say, so I pick up an OEM copy of XP Pro (shying away from Vista for now), come home, work some magic to make the machine actually boot from CD (for whatever reason, setting CD-Drive as the first boot priority did not work. I had to unplug the HDD from the MB to get it to boot from CD, and then plug it in while running thereafter), and start the Windows XP install.
I had it remove all existing partitions on my drive, format a single C: drive, and it then proceeded to happily copy over all of the files it needs to for install.
It then rebooted the machine, loaded up (from the HDD I believe, not the CD) to complete the install, and entered the Windows Setup mode. It then did some preliminary things, started the installation, and promptly froze up completely, not allowing the mouse to move, the progress bar to advance...nothing. I waited some 2 hours to be sure it wasn't just quietly finishing the install.
This happened the next few times as well.
I'm unsure what the culprit is unfortunately. It is very, very frustrating to not know.
Right now the only things on the box are the hard drive (SATA connector), DVDRom (IDE), 4 GB DDR2 Ram, motherboard bolted to the case, Dual core CPU installed with the intel-supplied box fan on top of it, my 500W power supply from my previous machine, and my Nvidia video card in the PCI-Express slot.
I have one friend suggesting that one of my 4 sticks of Ram might have gone out in the process of swapping motherboards/machines, leading to a crash at a random time and another friend confident that I installed the heatsink wrong and the CPU is overheating.
Meanwhile I fear it could be one of those things, could be that friggin Gigabyte had a nice big sticker across the 4 DDR2 Ram slots that when peeled off left a lot of sticker residue, that I only mostly was able to scrape away, could simply be a faulty MB, could be that the MB or CPU were damaged when I had to firmly press the lever down to lock the CPU in place thanks to the design of the MB/CPU....
Ugh.
Hardware for Wrath - Concillian - 12-23-2008
I don't have a lot of time right now, but just some quick ideas:
If your memory isn't DDR2-667, then an e8xxx series will run it faster. You could be inadvertently overclocking and it's freezing on boot, just on the edge of stability. In this case, you can probably increase voltage to 2.1v and be alright. Potentially increasing latency to something like 6-6-6-30 or even 7-7-7-40 or so just to check things out.
Also some boards just need to run RAM a little looser when 4 slots are full.
I'd at least try with just one stick in and see if it works. You can work up from there.
Hardware for Wrath - Mordekhuul - 12-23-2008
So here is what I did last night.
After seeing even more issues with instability, like the computer failing to enter the BIOS setup when I hit <delete> while it is posting, I took advantage of the fact that I bought my hardware locally instead of online and returned the motherboard to Fry's.
I then had some conversations with a few of the hardware guys there, picked up a new version of the same motherboard (plus a grounding strap and some Arctic Silver Compound for the CPU/Heatsink) and headed home.
I did a much tighter, cleaner job of installing the motheboard this time, including putting the CPU and heatsink in place before placing the motherboard in the case, which allowed me to make sure the fan was really secured properly.
I'm pretty confident my issues are not from the MB or CPU at this point, because after a much tighter installation last night the same issues arose.
I'm looking at my RAM (as per Conc and a few other friends) and my hard drive, at this point.
I was thinking that I would pick up two 2-GB RAM chips on the way home tonight, along with a new hard drive. If one fixes the issue, I'd return the other.
My 4 1-GB Kingston DDR2 RAM chips are a bit older. I did verify that they specify 1.8 (or 1.9, I forget) Volts as their preferred voltage, and made sure the motherboard was set to the same voltage for its DDR2 output, before testing last night.
Any thoughts on what is important in a new hard drive, in terms of boosting performance, while I'm picking one up, or what is important on DDR2 RAM for that matter?
Hardware for Wrath - RTM - 12-23-2008
Crucial.com is a great site for checking out compatible memory upgrades, even if you don't end up buying from them (you can usually find stuff cheaper elsewhere). Here's their compatible memory page for your motherboard. They only list a 4gb module, but you can click the 'See All Compatible Parts' link underneath that to see all possible modules that'll fit in your board.
Hardware for Wrath - Artega - 12-23-2008
Quote:Please feel free to prove me wrong by linking an actual computer comparable to what I suggested less than double the $350 (That is, dual core / 4GB / video card comparable to a 4670 or 9600GT). I don't think you can.
http://www.techreport.com/articles.x/15941/2
The selection of those items at NewEgg: http://secure.newegg.com/Shopping/Shopping...bmit=ChangeItem
$532 as of today. Add another $24 for a full 4GB of RAM, add $100 for an OS. That's still under $700, and there are other methods of acquiring an OS. The 4830 is also superior to the 4670, the processor is dual core, and the RAM is faster. The power supply is kinda weak at only 380W, but it's sufficient for the demands of the build. Upgrading to 500W might be advisable down the road.
Beyond that, there's plenty of ways to cut costs here and there. Not everyone will want or need a 640GB drive. You could probably save the cost of the extra RAM by going for a smaller capacity.
No, not everyone has $600 laying around (I don't), but if you put away a little each month into a savings account, you can probably afford one after five or six months.
Hardware for Wrath - Klaus - 12-23-2008
I'll second the opinion that it's probably the RAM. I had similar issues recently when I was swapping memory back and forth in various boards to figure out what was broken (turned out to b the new MB). I had moved DDR2-800 ram into a board that normally has 667 in it, and I had manually changed the speed to 800 to test it (the MB didn't auto-select 800 for some reason). When I put the slower memory back in, I forgot to change the settings back to match. The machine would boot (usually) to the XP login screen, then either freeze or reboot when you tried to log in. Sometimes it would actually let me log in and start to do stuff, then reboot.
If the disk you were using worked in the old machine, I find it very unlikely that it would cause this kind of issue in the new box.