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+--- Thread: I'm speechless. (/thread-10956.html)
I'm speechless. - Feryar - 07-01-2003
That's just sick :angry:
If my parents had ever done anything like that to me, I'd cut them off.
This kind of treatment does not "teach" anyone anything.
I'm quite sure it can pacify some people, though, or rather give them traumas.
Someone brought up "One Flew Over The Cuckos Nest", and yeah, that sounds like it. Only exception is that they perform mental lobotomy rather than physical.
Sick.
I'm speechless. - Occhidiangela - 07-01-2003
Quote:Yes, there are bad kids out there. Ones that don't respond to traditional methods, who need "tough love". Regardless, they still don't deserve to be carted off somewhere to be brainwashed. Noone does. What these people are doing is worse than killing the children; they're stripping them of their identities. Noone deserves that, not even the most horrible criminals.
1. Quit mixing apples and oranges.
Don't deserve? Based on what criterion? You apparently got screwed by man hating America in this case, but no surprise, you aren't the first man to run into that bias and hatred founded on Feminism and Psychobabble for 30 years. Now, you've earned your stripes. Glad to see you made it through that emotional meat grinder.
2. Worse than killing?
Oh please, knock it off. Besides offering the Nietzchism that "That which does not kill you makes you stronger" I will point out that the Program from WASP Hell does end eventually. While I don't buy that what is being done is right, you are full of sh** on that point. They are still alive when it is over.
3. Stripping their identities?
Oh, stop it. What they are doing is forcing them to do something they don't want to do. I don't endorse this approach. I personally consider it a form of emotional abuse. That said, everything you go through in life changes you somewhat. Again, the teen's isolation from their environment and enforced adaptation to "Something else" is not what I would call loving treatment. They are apparently 'changed' when they come out, but I wonder if a great deal of the change isn't merely external, and much of the old person is hidden for a while in order to cope.
4. The most horrible criminals? They need to be executed, or changed even more fundamentally than any of these teens ever are, because they actually went out and committed a horrible crime and are thus more than potential problems, they are proven problems for everyone, not just their families.
Let's not compare teenagers having emotional trouble with bona fide criminals, shall we? It is unfair to the teen in the extreme.
What these teens appear to have committed as a crime is: trying to grow up and go through puberty imperfectly, or be emotionally and socially incompetent to the point where their guardian can't, or most likely won't, be able to deal with them.
What is sad is that these "schools" exist. One more case of profit motive run amok.
I'm speechless. - Bun-Bun - 07-01-2003
Lots of cults/groups do the same sort of thing. Isolation, childish regression, enforced confession, enforced conformity, it's all been done before. It's a nasty, evil business that will only be stopped by exposing it to the sunshine of publicity.
On Lifton's thought reform criteria, I'd score it like this:
Milieu Control: Oh, yeah. This one's a slam dunk, with the isolated and tightly controlled environment.
Mystical Manipulation: Not so clear on this one, but with the establishment of the "family groups" with authoritarian figures, along with the deliberate childhood regression, I count htis a "yes".
Demand for Purity: Scored conformity placed this one a solid "yes".
Cult of Confession: No doubt, there. Obvious conditioning in a secret-free environment.
Sacred Science: No questions allowed, so I've got no question this is "yes".
Loading the Language: Yep, no doubt there. They've got their own little cultspeak going.
Doctrine over Person: Yes. It's always the child's fault, never the program's if the scores don't improve.
Dispensing of Existence: The kids can't leave until they believe in their hearts that they would be dead without the program. Gotta say "yes" on this one, too.
Looks like a textbook case of thought reform, or "brainwashing". Completely contemptible. I'm glad it's getting some publicity, but I'm terribly afraid that this "camp" and others like it will continue. Some people would rather control their children than parent them.
I'm speechless. - Occhidiangela - 07-01-2003
Quote:If my parents had ever done anything like that to me, I'd cut them off.
Feryar, if your parents would have done that, you would have already been cut off. You'd have nothing to cut. A parent has to stop viewing his or her child as a person of their blood and start seeing them as "a problem" in order to take steps of this sort. That requires an emotional bond be cut.
You'd have nothing left to cut, had you been so disposed of by your parents. Aren't you glad they were a bit more old fashioned in their approach? :)
I'm speechless. - WarLocke - 07-01-2003
Quote:Oh please, knock it off. Besides offering the Nietzchism that "That which does not kill you makes you stronger" I will point out that the Program from WASP Hell does end eventually. While I don't buy that what is being done is right, you are full of sh** on that point. They are still alive when it is over.
Oh please, yourself. I don't have a death wish, but I'd choose that over having my mind bent, broken, and recast in someone else's image of perfection. Whether anything lies beyond death other than oblivion, at least you're yourself when you face it. These people are remolding children against their will, like some play-doh sculpture that just might look better like this.
A life without free will and self-determination is worse than no life at all. But that's just my opinion, you don't have to agree.
Quote:The most horrible criminals? They need to be executed, or changed even more fundamentally than any of these teens ever are, because they actually went out and committed a horrible crime and are thus more than potential problems, they are proven problems for everyone, not just their families.
I have no problem with the death penalty. I can even advocate it in some radical cases. But getting back to my earlier paragraph, it's still a lesser punishment than behavioral modification. I still say even criminals should not be subjected to it; it violates a fundamental human right.
Quote:Let's not compare teenagers having emotional trouble with bona fide criminals, shall we? It is unfair to the teen in the extreme.
I'm not aware that I did. I stated that noone should be subjected to this, using criminals as an example.
- WL
I'm speechless. - TaiDaishar - 07-01-2003
Quote:Don't deserve? Based on what criterion? You apparently got screwed by man hating America in this case, but no surprise, you aren't the first man to run into that bias and hatred founded on Feminism and Psychobabble for 30 years. Now, you've earned your stripes. Glad to see you made it through that emotional meat grinder.
I really did not understand this part... but I side with the original poster, NO ONE deserves this kind of treatment
Quote:2. Worse than killing?
Oh please, knock it off. Besides offering the Nietzchism that "That which does not kill you makes you stronger" I will point out that the Program from WASP Hell does end eventually. While I don't buy that what is being done is right, you are full of sh** on that point. They are still alive when it is over.
Yes they are alive when it is over, but how do they live, and when it is over?
Imagine you were forced to acknowledge that everything you did was wrong and you were going to be a no-good bum/drug addict/criminal.
You seem to think that when it's over, it IS over, problem is that it is not, they are messing with the minds of teenagers that will last for a long long time (most probably their entire life) which by turn they will use the same methods on their own kids and I do not envy those kids for their life will most likely be a living hell.
Quote:3. Stripping their identities?
Oh, stop it. What they are doing is forcing them to do something they don't want to do. I don't endorse this approach. I personally consider it a form of emotional abuse. That said, everything you go through in life changes you somewhat. Again, the teen's isolation from their environment and enforced adaptation to "Something else" is not what I would call loving treatment. They are apparently 'changed' when they come out, but I wonder if a great deal of the change isn't merely external, and much of the old person is hidden for a while in order to cope.
Yes, when someone makes you think by force that all you were, done and would've been doing is wrong, it IS stripping their identities, the quotes from the kids sounded more like the talk of zombies than real living, thinking human beings.
Quote:4. The most horrible criminals? They need to be executed, or changed even more fundamentally than any of these teens ever are, because they actually went out and committed a horrible crime and are thus more than potential problems, they are proven problems for everyone, not just their families.
I have no sympathy for those who stripped others from their most basic human rights and I still believe that they do not deserve this kind of treatment, I understand how you feel about this but brainwashing people is never a good way, not to you, me, or that maniac serial killer.
Most likely it is totally (not entirely) their fault, most likely they were abused as kids etc' and this is their payback on society for making their life a living hell.
I'm speechless. - Feryar - 07-01-2003
Indeed I am, I'd much rather take one on the chin after doing something bad than being shipped off to "Alcatraz light". As a matter of fact I have done that several times :)
But from reading the part 2 article it does seem that some kids indeed goes back to living with their parents again after the treatment, and that is something I would never do.
I've done my share of troublemaking while growing up, if you ask my parents they'll say I've done more than my share. They're probably right.
I'm very glad that I never was shipped off to a place like that and that my parents dealt with the problems themselves.
I'm speechless. - Occhidiangela - 07-01-2003
I don't believe you understand how resiliant a human being is, or can be. You sell short everyone of these teens, whose follow on life we don't appear to have much knowledge of, with your over emotional response to what is absolutely a wrong treatment of them.
Bun-buns post is an excellent distillation of all of the reasons why it is wrong to treat teens that way, but you once again fall into the cult of victimhood if you believe that going through that sort of hell is a fate worst than death. If you'd rather die, that is YOUR weakness of character showing up, your negative attitude. Read Frankel's book. Man's Search For Meaning. A death camp survivor, he presents a compelling case for how darned hard a nut a person is, or can be, to crack.
Warlocke, from your own experience, from what you shared with us, you fought your way through some seriously nasty crap. You can either take the attitude that "I am scarred forever because my life was imperfectly orchestrated" or you can take on an attitude like that of Epictitus: "You can't take my self away from me. You screwed with me, and look at me, pal, I am still standing!"
So yes, your words are hyperbole, and overstatement.
EDIT: Tai, "I'll never get over it" are the words of a loser. You can get over most anything if you put your mind to it. Consider the fate of a large number of our own PoW's, in Bataan, in Viet Nam, who managed to get on with their lives after spending three, four and five years in Hell.
Did everyone 'get over it' perfectly? No, saying that would be an overstatement as well. Do the "Graduates" of these "programming" schools have yet another challenge in their later lives? Will they feel a sense of loss at having not had the "same growing up experience" as "everyone else?" Yeah, but funnily enough, people get that whisps of that feeling based on a hundred factors. One can choose to feel sorry for one's self, or one can get on with the life at hand.
/End Edit
To follow up on the horrid criminal thought, maybe reprogramming is exactly what they need. I doubt it, but if you look at the recitivism in America, who knows? The problem is, this enforced programming approach has been shown time and again to be significantly flawed insofar as long term beneficial impact on the individual, if there ever was such an intention.
As I see it, the intention is to benifit some third party, not the individual.
I will admit that I share your dismay at any of this being legal, and I wonder why the teens have to be "kidnapped," rather than accompanied by their parents to Jamaica when they "enroll" at these "school."
The lack of any sort of educational training of the Mr Kay in charge in Jamaica is evidence enough that this is wrong.
I'm speechless. - WarLocke - 07-01-2003
Quote:Warlocke, from your own experience, from what you shared with us, you fought your way through some seriously nasty crap.
Thanks.
Quote:You can either take the attitude that "I am scarred forever because my life was imperfectly orchestrated" or you can take on an attitude like that of Epictitus: "You can't take my self away from me. You screwed with me, and look at me, pal, I am still standing!"
But if the "conditioning" works (and I'm speaking on a case-by-case basis here; I'm sure it doesn't always) then they did take your self away from you, didn't they?
Remember, we're talking about teens here. That period of a person's life is not conducive to healthy self-esteem or strong willpower. Teens are assaulted from all sides as to the way they "have" to be -- they have to be slim, attractive, popular, successful, etc. I never did giving a flying crap what society wanted me to be, but for those who do, I can easily see how such "demands" can erode self-esteem and cripple willpower. This just makes behavioral modification that much easier, since the subjects are already indoctrinated into the fact that they must conform to "fit in."
So basically, yes I would like to stand behind Epictitus (and for me, personally, I wholeheartedly do), but the people subjected to these camps, by their very nature, are ill-prepared to resist it.
Quote:Read Frankel's book. Man's Search For Meaning. A death camp survivor, he presents a compelling case for how darned hard a nut a person is, or can be, to crack.
I haven't read any related literature, nor have I (obviously) experienced it, or know anyone who has. So I very well may be underestimating how resilient the human mind can be. But the fact that it, apparently, works indicates that some of us are more robust than others.
Quote:If you'd rather die, that is YOUR weakness of character showing up, your negative attitude.
Maybe. Or maybe it's a matter of perception. I don't know.
What I do know is this: The thought of someone messing with my mind horrifies me. If someone screws up my thoughts to the point that some of those kids were at ("I have no doubt that if I weren't sent to Tranquility Bay, I'd be dead now." -- paraphrased), would I still be me? It's like being lobotomized; your meat still exists, but you aren't there. If you'll excuse the melodramatics, this is like "mental rape."
So yes, maybe I am overreacting. But if anything is worthy of overreacting over (too many overs there...), this is.
- WL
I'm speechless. - kandrathe - 07-01-2003
I wonder just how much the parents failures have contributed to the problem. The articles go out of their way to point out the prevelence of broken homes, and disfunctional families. Many times those kids are just acting out to try to get mommy or daddies attention. That said, I'm not sure what the answer is, but I know that it doesn't involve forcing your child to lay on their face for 18 months. I think if the parents had, and maintained a relationship with their children it might be a good start. I'm trying real hard not to be one of those parents that wakes up one day with juvenile delinquents in my house, wondering what I did wrong.
I'm speechless. - Guest - 07-01-2003
I saw a special on these on TV like 3 years ago.
They had several kids who were obviously fine and their lazy ass parents sent them their because it was an easy solution to teen age rebellion. So I agree these islands can be bad and probably are bad for most the kids sent there..
But they also had a group kids older kids who were very resentful and saying the islands should be shut down. But when they asked these kids questions it looked like they were the better for it.
All of them had been using drugs way past the experimentation stage, and more than just pot. Some had stolen cars. Several had commited violent acts on family memebers. They all admited this stuff.
And here they were as reasonable young adults with jobs or in collage.
I think a real key is when you have violent kids. When a 14 year old gives his mom a black eye, it may be time for the school of hard knocks.
I'm speechless. - Bun-Bun - 07-01-2003
Quote:I haven't read any related literature, nor have I (obviously) experienced it, or know anyone who has. So I very well may be underestimating how resilient the human mind can be. But the fact that it, apparently, works indicates that some of us are more robust than others.
You're quite correct that some people are more tolerant of abuse than others. We're all individuals, and we each have a breaking point. I think you may be on the low side on your average estimate, though. :)
Quote:What I do know is this: The thought of someone messing with my mind horrifies me. If someone screws up my thoughts to the point that some of those kids were at ("I have no doubt that if I weren't sent to Tranquility Bay, I'd be dead now." -- paraphrased), would I still be me? It's like being lobotomized; your meat still exists, but you aren't there. If you'll excuse the melodramatics, this is like "mental rape."
If it's any consolation, I've done some reading on the subject, and it would seem that the "core" personality is not destroyed, but shut down. The artificial shell that conditioning creates tends to break down when outside the environment that constructed it. A lot depends on how the person views the new behavior patterns - if they meet with internal or external approval, the patterns can persist indefinitely.
The return to the core personality can take some time, but I suspect the vast majority will look back in five or ten years, and consider TB a hellhole. I may be optimistic, though - they could rationalize their acquiescence, or simply refuse to think about it.
I'm speechless. - Wapptor - 07-02-2003
I am horrified and disgusted the same time. This is one of the few things that truly disturbs me. Just the image of being taken from my home by police during the night and locked away in that hell hole gives me shivers. I'd liken this entire program to a concentration camp if not worse. For now though I think i'll just let my rage boil down however, before I become dangerous :P.
-Wapptor (very disturbed)
I'm speechless. - kandrathe - 07-02-2003
Concentration camp? Hardly. Certainly mental abuse, but let's not cheapen the horror of what a concentration camp really is.
I remember the tales of a Russian friend of my father's who was shot down in WWII, and was in Bergen-Belsen for 18 months. He weighed 180 lbs, before and 70 lbs when they were liberated. The food was so poor, that they had to feed it to rats they kept in a pit, then eat the rats. Ritual and random killing, torture, rape and mutilation. There is a good description of the Typhus epidemic that ravaged the camp on this page; Bergen-Belsen History
I'm speechless. - Wapptor - 07-02-2003
Fair enough kandrathe, but I think a point can be reached where it doesn't really matter the difference. A concentration camp is more brutal, you are correct, however I would put both places in the same category of unpleasentness. Let me explain.
To me, this place seems like a denial of human rights, that in itself infuriates me. The physical overpowering of people and the mental "brainwashing" per se, seem to go beyond what is legal in the court system. To me that breaks the highest order of law, natural law and among that human rights. For me, this crosses a line where it is not acceptable in any way shape or form, nor can it ever be rationalized.
May I suggest that we organize a large angry mob? Everyone get your pitchforks and torches! :)
-Wapptor (still disturbed...)
I'm speechless. - Guest - 07-02-2003
At least the type of brain washing you refer too.
True brain washing is breaking a persons identity and forceing them to identify with a new person or a group instead. That is bad.
But I dont think thats what these camps are about(at least not a properly run one).
Ideally you break down a persons self destructive psyc(ussually they are developed as coping mechanism for a child) and let them rebuild a more balanced and introspective psyc.
I'm speechless. - TaiDaishar - 07-02-2003
Ghostiger,Jul 2 2003, 01:15 PM Wrote:True brain washing is breaking a persons identity and forceing them to identify with a new person or a group instead. That is bad.Excuse me... but what you just said is EXACTLY what they do in these WWASP "schools".
Quote:Ideally you break down a persons self destructive psyc(ussually they are developed as coping mechanism for a child) and let them rebuild a more balanced and introspective psyc.
Wrong, simply wrong, what they do in there is break the teenager to little pieces, boil it until it turns liquid and then pour into a pattern of their wishes, no rebuilding and they don't break down only a person's self-destruction, it breaks the person entirely in order to mold into law-obiding, polite with the lowest of self-esteem zombies.
I'm speechless. - Occhidiangela - 07-02-2003
Quote:So basically, yes I would like to stand behind Epictitus (and for me, personally, I wholeheartedly do), but the people subjected to these camps, by their very nature, are ill-prepared to resist it.
Yes, that makes sense in many cases, I am sure, in that if the parents have by that point been unable to establish XXXX self worth, then the destructive behaviour being reacted to signals a deeper problem. The broken home theme once again screams at me as a root cause.
However, you will also find persons on the flip side: exceptionally strong personalities who go from testing the limits to crossing the line of illegality. Those nuts are tough to crack by anyone. Those personalities, even if adolsecent, will be able to game even a concentration camp sorto of atmosphere and come out with minimal internal damage.
I'm speechless. - Guest - 07-02-2003
Your first point.
"Excuse me... but what you just said is EXACTLY what they do in these WWASP "schools"."
They may well be doing bad stuff, most of the schools are not doing this. Cults do this and it is different. The problem with people coming out of those schools isnt that they identify with the leader or some cause, the problem is that they are ussually bitter and even more angery than when they came.
Your second point.
"QUOTE
Ideally you break down a persons self destructive psyc(ussually they are developed as coping mechanism for a child) and let them rebuild a more balanced and introspective psyc.
Wrong, simply wrong, what they do in there is break the teenager to little pieces, boil it until it turns liquid and then pour into a pattern of their wishes, no rebuilding and they don't break down only a person's self-destruction, it breaks the person entirely in order to mold into law-obiding, polite with the lowest of self-esteem zombies. "
I said "ideally". You and I really dont know what happens on those "islands". So you telling me how my paradigm is wrong based on a third hand account of what is often just a way to bilk money from the parents is kind of silly.
I'm speechless. - kandrathe - 07-02-2003
Quote:To me, this place seems like a denial of human rights, that in itself infuriates me.I am one person who believes that the time has come in our history where we take the next step from the "Bill of Rights" and outline the rights of those who have been traditionally denied them. Like, children.
You present an interesting dilema. Do parents have the right to take legal, yet (to us) extreme measures to try to change the "thinking" in their children? How about the children of parents involved with non-mainstream religious movements, like the Branch Davidians, or other fringe left and right wing groups? Now, I would guess that there are kids in those camps that were merely troublesome, and "out of control" in their parents opinion. You or I might label those same children as rebellious, but not in danger to themselves or others. Finding out that your child is smoking cigarettes, dabbling with a little pot, and running with a rough crowd is a far cry from juvenile delinquency in my definition. How about in the definition of a Mennonite? Certainly these kids are engaging in more high risk behaviors. But are there other less extreme methods for reigning them in? Maybe if the parents would spend a little more time raising them... I dunno.
Now, back to what you said. Hmmm, human rights. Firstly, they should have the right to be in a safe environment. I didn't read about any allegations of physical abuse, although I think the punishment by restraint is a form of physical incarceration. The right to have proper clothing, nutrition, and shelter. The right to have access to health care, and education. Again, it seems that these kids are being cared for. Remember, I'm on your side. I disagree with the reasoning, and methods. The child is in effect incarcerated, with their only crime being the loss of trust of their parents.
Lastly, compare this with what drafted soldiers would endure in boot camp and military service.