Unsubstantiated rumour or point of fact?

Unsubstantiated rumour or point of fact? - Printable Version

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Unsubstantiated rumour or point of fact? - [wcip]Angel - 12-14-2003

http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/12...main/index.html

Quote: Former Iraqi President Saddam Hussein has possibly been captured in a raid near his hometown of Tikrit, U.S. officials say.

Norwegian newspapers are a bit more certain than this, claiming it's really him.

I guess these will prove to be some very interesting hours ahead of us.

Unsubstantiated rumour or point of fact? - AtomicKitKat - 12-14-2003

Propaganda. The administration needs to produce either OBL or SH in time for elections. The fact that there were several body doubles lends credence to this being faked.

Unsubstantiated rumour or point of fact? - [wcip]Angel - 12-14-2003

What about the alledged DNA-tests? Fakes, courtesy of Corporation America?

I'm not as paranoid as you, and honestly believe they've actually managed to capture the real McCoy.

Unsubstantiated rumour or point of fact? - Haider - 12-14-2003

Either it is him or it is Santa Claus.

Unsubstantiated rumour or point of fact? - [wcip]Angel - 12-14-2003

Reference to this picture, mayhap?

http://www.studentengids.nl/IMAGESERVER/up.../1071405498.jpg
:lol:

Unsubstantiated rumour or point of fact? - Haider - 12-14-2003

:D

Well look at him, if that is not Santa...

[Image: 0,1020,314819,00.jpg]

Unsubstantiated rumour or point of fact? - Kartoffelsalat - 12-14-2003

Haider,Dec 14 2003, 09:44 AM Wrote::D

Well look at him, if that is not Santa...

Good lord... I sure as heck don't want that coming down my chimmney. :blink:

Unsubstantiated rumour or point of fact? - Sir_Die_alot - 12-14-2003

AtomicKitKat,Dec 14 2003, 03:07 AM Wrote:Propaganda. The administration needs to produce either OBL or SH in time for elections. The fact that there were several body doubles lends credence to this being faked.

Propaganda this: http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/12/14/...main/index.html

:P

Unsubstantiated rumour or point of fact? - LochnarITB - 12-14-2003

I was actually disappointed by the news, for a moment.

I live in Minnesota. Much of the news in this area has focused on the kidnapping of Dru Sjodin, a University of North Dakota student from Minnesota.

As I turned to the news this morning, the first thing I heard was, "They entered a farmhouse and in a small hole..." My thoughts quickly hoped to hear "...where they found Dru Sjodin alive." However, from the reports in the news, I guess that was a little too much to hope. :(

Unsubstantiated rumour or point of fact? - NiteFox - 12-14-2003

Haider,Dec 14 2003, 02:44 PM Wrote:Well look at him, if that is not Santa...

Well, at least he has a future career prospect planned out, unlike many former dictators who fail to make any plans for future financial stability.

Though I would be leery of any packages he leaves under my tree. Best to send my sister to open them outside :P

Edit: I wish I wasn't serious about this, but they are play Motorhead's Ace of Spades on the televsion right now.

Unsubstantiated rumour or point of fact? - Moldran - 12-14-2003

Definately good news.
Even the anti-US German media reports mass-celebrations in Iraqi cities :)

Unsubstantiated rumour or point of fact? - Nicodemus Phaulkon - 12-14-2003

Maybe they'll actually try to find Osama Bin Laden, now?

Assuming they're not kept too busy with their international contracting disputes, et al.

Justice is one thing, but business is always business.

Unsubstantiated rumour or point of fact? - whyBish - 12-15-2003

Nicodemus Phaulkon,Dec 15 2003, 12:06 PM Wrote:Maybe they'll actually try to find Osama Bin Laden, now?

Osama who? :P

SO is this the door that gives the U.S. the opening to pull out?

Unsubstantiated rumour or point of fact? - Occhidiangela - 12-15-2003

If this capture is used as an excuse to "cut and run" now that the 'bad guy' has been caught, and avoid the cost of picking Iraq up off the ground after having bombed the crap out of parts of that country, then shame on us. We gave Japan a better shake than that, Germany and others as well. Russia got billions as a payback for tearing down the wall, sorta, though some of us called it blackmail money to try and keep track of some nukes. :blink:

First off, I suspect that there are a number of players in Iraq causing trouble who are NOT in Saddam's camp, and never were, but are folks who gain political wampum by giving the US and anyone who works with them in the Arab world the red ass. Please note that Sadat was assassinated for the Camp David Accords, that great step forward in Middle East peace.

Anyone working with the US at present has, to a certain extent, a bullseye on their back thanks to some folks who have agendas that do NOT include Iraq becoming a pluralist, representative form of government of one sort or another.

There is more work to do, and in particular, a lot more work to do in terms of not giving up on the "international community" and finding ways for more folks to make useful contributions to Iraq's future. That is hard and at times maddening work, since you don't always get "to have it your way." In short, Iraq is not Burger King.

P.S. How did he grow a beard that long in only 9 months? I guess he is still a pretty hirsuite fella.

Unsubstantiated rumour or point of fact? - whyBish - 12-16-2003

Kartoffelsalat,Dec 15 2003, 04:03 AM Wrote:[ood lord... I sure as heck don't want that coming down my chimmney.  :blink:

"Coming down the chimney" is not a problem, it's "blowing up the chimney" that I'd be concerned about :P

Unsubstantiated rumour or point of fact? - Occhidiangela - 12-16-2003

Apparently, when Saddam Hussein was asked, armed as he was with a pistol, why he did not "fight back" he is reported to have pointed at the American soldiers who had captured him and said:

"Would you fight against those guys?'' A bit of a left handed compliment, and curious if true. Given that he was down in a hole and they could have fragged him in a heartbeat, I'd say he recognized a few sober tactical realities and demonstrated once again his strong Will To Survive. He's still alive, right?

I have heard that snippet from a couple of different media sources, but it may also be one of those "Iraqi Urban Legends" that will no doubt have sprung up regarding the capture.

And as to what is apparently not an urban legend:

McDermott questions timing of arrest
By Alex Fryer
Seattle Times Washington bureau

SEATTLE TIMES, 2002
Rep. Jim McDermott aired his skepticism of Saddam Hussein's capture, speaking on the Dave Ross radio show yesterday.

WASHINGTON â On Seattle radio yesterday, Rep. Jim McDermott questioned the timing of Saddam Hussein's capture, saying, "I'm sure they could have found him a long time ago if they wanted to." His comments came during an interview on "The Dave Ross Show" on KIRO-FM. "I've been surprised they waited, but then I thought, well, politically, it probably doesn't make much sense to find him just yet," he said.

"There's too much by happenstance for it to be just a coincidental thing that it happened on this particular day," he continued.

Occhinote: You've got to be kidding me, sir. You sincerely believe that it was deliberately delayed (a coup of the highest sort, capturing Saddam Hussein) until after the elections in Nov, and that Saddam's capture was deliberately delayed in the face of considerable political pressure over the entire Iraq War? What sensible conspiracy theory makes this belief make sense?

Later yesterday, the Seattle Democrat said he did not know whether the Pentagon had manufactured the arrest of the Iraqi leader. "I think the fact is that the administration has been desperate to find something (positive), and this came up.

Quote:Occhinote:  That may be true, or not.  "Good" news never sucks when you are running a war.

"I don't have any knowledge if they knew about it (Saddam's hideout). I think they (Bush administration) got a Christmas present early." State Republican Party Chairman Chris Vance quickly launched a statement condemning McDermott's earlier statements.

Occhinote: No surprises there.

"Once again McDermott has embarrassed this state with his irresponsible ranting." Despite the capture of the Iraqi leader, McDermott said Americans should remain concerned about the welfare of U.S. troops. "My worry is that problems will be just as bad tomorrow," said McDermott, who has represented the 7th District since 1988. "... It is not the end of the problem. The fact that he is in captivity does not change things."

Quote:Occhinote: that last rings truer than some might like to admit.  Still a lot of trouble and hard work left to do in Iraq before we discharge our responsibilities to that nation.

McDermott's comment stands in contrast to other members of the state's delegation, who lauded Saddam's capture. In September 2002, McDermott made news when he traveled to Iraq and told television interviewers that President Bush would mislead the public to justify an invasion. It's an incident that continues to reverberate on Capitol Hill.

Occhinote: And that message still get sent by others.

Two months ago, House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, R-Texas, wrote McDermott a personal letter after McDermott denounced a comment by a member of DeLay's office. The staffer said McDermott had attacked the U.S. while he visited Iraq. Instead of an apology, DeLay wrote: "Your words, had they been spoken in the United States, would have amounted to mean-spirited but predictable mediocre hackery. That they were uttered in Saddam's Iraq, however, perhaps within shouting distance of a torture chamber or mass grave, elevated (or lowered) those remarks to the sickening embarrassment they were."

Occhinote: Political scrapping, such fun, such a gentleman's game, eh? Maybe the old Aaron Burr/ALexander Hamilton forms should be readpoted, or even Sam Houstons' approach, and members of Congress should start challenging each other to duels: with whipped cream pies, water pistols, paint guns, or mud wrestling.
Alex Fryer: 206-464-8124 or afryer@seattletimes.com. Seattle Times staff reporter J. Patrick Coolican contributed to this report.

Unsubstantiated rumour or point of fact? - kandrathe - 12-17-2003

I guess if 600 heavily armed soldiers and combinations of Special Forces guys (or, the "Born Again Hard", who live to train) came to my hovel I'd surrender in a heart beat. To do anything else would just be suicide.

All this Iraqi bravado talk of being dissapointed in Saddam's easy capture and humiliation to me is bunk. How many of the Republican Guard or Fedayeen Saddam stood and fought? That place was littered from north to south, with the discarded uniforms and weapons of former soldiers. Humiliation is forcing people to watch their children being tortured, or standing your 3rd world army up against the US twice with no hope. Saddam was the ultimate humilator of the Iraqi's. I mean the only twisted logic that makes sense is that Saddam thought he could garner worldwide Islamic sympathy for having the US stomp on Iraq again. This relates more with your other post in this forum, but unfortunately OUR media and certainly Al Jezeera, et. al. are only representing the partial truth about the post war Iraqi situation. We are in a damned if you do, and damned if you don't situation.

Side A says: We've restored most of the power generation and most of the water treatment facilities, hospitals, schools, and most services are restored.
Side B counters: In such and such a place, the power is only on 4 hours a day, and in such and such a place they only have bottled water brought in by truck once a week.
Side A replies: Yes, but the infrastructure was broken before the war even started and they are better off than they were 4 years ago.
Side B counters: But, the US did this to them with their oppressive sanctions.

I scream in exhasparation. It's a no win proposition. They don't want us there, and they don't want us to bugger out of there. Whose 168 billion dollars is rebuilding Iraq? It would have been so much easier to just a drop a huge number of cheap dumb bombs until everything stopped moving, but I think the way we conducted the war, and the peace deserves just a little recognition. Are there any other nations in the world that take the time, effort and resources to rebuild their defeated enemies?

Are things perfect? No. Are they close to perfect? No. Will they ever be, I don't know and it's probably a problem the Iraqi's will need to deal with on their own. Are things better for the average Iraqi, than the average Haitian, or Liberian, or Sudanese? Most likely.

Unsubstantiated rumour or point of fact? - WarLocke - 12-17-2003

To paraphrase Jon Stewart:

"Now we've finally caught the man... who had nothing to do with September 11th."

Unsubstantiated rumour or point of fact? - Occhidiangela - 12-17-2003

At least, not to anyone with a brain and a sliver of a clue as to Mid East security policy, nor to anyone who understands why folks are critiquing the "pre emption" policy on Saddam Hussein. Pre emption is to do something to prevent someone doing something to you. What was done in Afghanistan was, and is, payback.

One of the messages being sent before March of this year was not that he did Sept 11 -- pretty certain Osama was the fella behind that -- but to prevent him doing "X Y and Z." To us AND our allies. Note the second element. Now, there is a lot of productive discussion on the nature of that probability, capacity to act, and real capability. I would like to see the informed and reasoned debate and investigation continue, but all we seem to get is Hot Air: from all sides.

Those who thought there was a tie to Al Quaeda from Saddam need to show a bit more evidence. Those who assert that Saddam supported terrorism, which means he engaged in state sponsored terrorism, merely had to look at the $25,000 dollar checks he admitted to giving to Palestinian suicide bombers who attacked Israeli citizens. (So, how do you explain his hit on Abu Nidal, a fella who was not a friend to US? Easy: in the Arab world

ITS NOT ALL ABOUT US

Saddam's suicide bomber payola is a cut and dried case of state sponsored terrorism, a legit issue in the war on terrorism, but it is not "retribution" for 9-11. Afghanistan and the Taliban felt that wrath a lot sooner, and a lot harder. So are some folks in Gitmo. Is it, or was it worth, going to war? Not by itself, or maybe it is. At what point is a line drawn?

I suppose the caveat to Mr Stewarts comment would be "who had nothing to do with September 11 as far as we know."

My guess is that Saddam cheered it and wished he'd been able to pull it off himself, but that is just guesswork on my part.

Unsubstantiated rumour or point of fact? - kandrathe - 12-17-2003

I found this source to be interesting.

Iraqpress.org