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Cookie Cutter Builds - Pesmerga - 08-03-2005
This is kind of random, but I want to try something new.
What are the cookie cutter builds for each class? My goal is to make a bunch of "test" chars, and try builds that no one uses because they are not "viable". I have an entire week of no fiancee next week, so I have some time on my hands. :)
Cookie Cutter Builds - Artega - 08-03-2005
31/20 and 31/5/15 Arms/Fury and Arms/Fury/Protection for Warriors.
23/7/21 Elemental/Enhancement/Restoration is popular for Shamans.
Cookie Cutter Builds - ima_nerd - 08-03-2005
31/8/13 and 21/8/22 for Rogues. (Assasination/Combat/Subtlety)
Cookie Cutter Builds - Arnath - 08-03-2005
ima_nerd,Aug 3 2005, 12:08 PM Wrote:31/8/13 and ...
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You mean 30/8/13. Or maybe 31/8/12. 31/8/13 however is more talent points than you actually have :D
Arnath
Cookie Cutter Builds - Tal - 08-03-2005
Artega,Aug 3 2005, 01:01 PM Wrote:31/20 and 31/5/15 Arms/Fury and Arms/Fury/Protection for Warriors.
23/7/21 Elemental/Enhancement/Restoration is popular for Shamans.
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ima_nerd,Aug 3 2005, 01:08 PM Wrote:31/8/13 and 21/8/22 for Rogues. (Assasination/Combat/Subtlety)
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Arnath,Aug 3 2005, 01:50 PM Wrote:You mean 30/8/13. Or maybe 31/8/12. 31/8/13 however is more talent points than you actually have :D
Arnath
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What do any of these numbers mean though in regards to the actual builds? What skills are we talking about?
Cookie Cutter Builds - Pesmerga - 08-03-2005
Tal,Aug 3 2005, 01:09 PM Wrote:What do any of these numbers mean though in regards to the actual builds? What skills are we talking about?
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::nods::
However, it does give me enough information to go the other way with things (for example, going 31 points in Combat for Rogues instead of the 8 listed here...)
Cookie Cutter Builds - Kevin - 08-03-2005
Pesmerga,Aug 3 2005, 01:11 PM Wrote:::nods::
However, it does give me enough information to go the other way with things (for example, going 31 points in Combat for Rogues instead of the 8 listed here...)
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31 point combat rogues are still very powerful. Slice and Dice stacked with Blade flurry is one of the fastest kill 2 mob methods I have ever seen. You just lose some utility with it.
Actually it is very very hard to build a "bad" rogue. Rogues don't have bad talents really. They have several viable play styles but you need to approach what you do differently with each build. This is a good thing. A combat rogue does not play like an assassination rogue or subtlety rogue.
Keep in mind that many cookie cutter builds are for PvP reasons as well. Since pretty much any build can work in PvE, it's maximizing PvP damage or utility that a lot of the cookie cutters are going for.
Cookie Cutter Builds - Pesmerga - 08-03-2005
Gnollguy,Aug 3 2005, 02:12 PM Wrote:31 point combat rogues are still very powerful. Slice and Dice stacked with Blade flurry is one of the fastest kill 2 mob methods I have ever seen. You just lose some utility with it.
Actually it is very very hard to build a "bad" rogue. Rogues don't have bad talents really. They have several viable play styles but you need to approach what you do differently with each build. This is a good thing. A combat rogue does not play like an assassination rogue or subtlety rogue.
Keep in mind that many cookie cutter builds are for PvP reasons as well. Since pretty much any build can work in PvE, it's maximizing PvP damage or utility that a lot of the cookie cutters are going for.
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I understand all of what you are saying, I'm just trying to see how viable the builds most people don't use are. You are right about Rogues though. As I ran through their skill tree, I saw a variety of ways for them to be built and still be really successful.
Cookie Cutter Builds - Kevin - 08-03-2005
Pesmerga,Aug 3 2005, 02:17 PM Wrote:I understand all of what you are saying, I'm just trying to see how viable the builds most people don't use are. You are right about Rogues though. As I ran through their skill tree, I saw a variety of ways for them to be built and still be really successful.
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Build a melee hunter then. :) I'm doing that now. A full 31 point survival hunter with the current tree has got to be one of the rarest builds out there. My other points are going into beast mastery. :)
The cookie cutter druid build was listed in my thread about my druid spec. I'm too lazy to look it up right now though.
Cookie Cutter Builds - Pesmerga - 08-03-2005
Gnollguy,Aug 3 2005, 02:22 PM Wrote:Build a melee hunter then. :) I'm doing that now. A full 31 point survival hunter with the current tree has got to be one of the rarest builds out there. My other points are going into beast mastery. :)
The cookie cutter druid build was listed in my thread about my druid spec. I'm too lazy to look it up right now though.
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I had a melee hunter up until 57 or so :)
Cookie Cutter Builds - Quark - 08-03-2005
Tal,Aug 3 2005, 02:09 PM Wrote:What do any of these numbers mean though in regards to the actual builds? What skills are we talking about?
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Rogue goals:
21/8/22 - Cold Blood, Improved Backstab, and Preparation respectively. The rest is usually "pick the best down the line", though some is up to personal preference and such. I know many Rogues go Initiative, I go for MoD and Camoflauge together. This is probably the most versatile Dagger build, as it allows for Cold Blood, Preparation, and Improved Sap (if you choose). Strong in both PvP and PvE.
30/8/13 and 31/8/12 - For 30 pts Assassination, you end in Seal Fate while ending in Improved Ambush in Subtletly. The other side would get Vigor without maxing Improved Ambush - and I find Vigor to not be worth a final talent point. This sacrifices Imp Sap and Preparation for very fast combo point generation. I don't care about finishing moves much anymore, hence me getting rid of Seal Fate. The better your weapons get, the worse finishing moves (and as such Seal Fate) become. Strong in PvE, semi-Strong PvP. Finishing Moves in PvP can be powerful - but Preparation is awesome PvP and you've lost that.
There's a somewhat popular raiding build, too. 15/23/13 or such. The goal in this is to maximize damage. Lethality, Dagger Specialization, and Improved Ambush are the endpoints. I'm not sure the popular ways to get down the Combat tree, but this build is the most damaging you'll see. Strongest raid-PvE, but weaker in 5-man PvE (where Prep can prevent a wipe, and Imp Sap shines) and PvP.
Cookie Cutter Builds - Xanthix - 08-03-2005
Priest:
All priest "cookie cutter" builds have 10 points in discipline for improved Fortitiude and Shield.
The shadow build has the rest in shadow. Nuke nuke nuke.
The raid/longevity build has 15-20 in Holy for Renew, Spiritual Healing, Subtlety, and maybe Holy Spec or Flash Heal. The rest is in discipline, for Divine Spirit.
Holy-specced priests have 10-21 points in discipline and the rest in holy. It's a trade-off between Inner Focus or Holy Nova (which are mutually exclusive), and assorted other sometimes-useful talents.
Cookie Cutter Builds - savaughn - 08-03-2005
Xanthix,Aug 3 2005, 02:34 PM Wrote:Priest:Actually, the Shadow priest base is 33 Shadow, 8 Discipline, and 10 points left over that can get mixed across the trees. Those 10 points generally get sprinkled into the following:
All priest "cookie cutter" builds have 10 points in discipline for improved Fortitiude and Shield.
The shadow build has the rest in shadow. Nuke nuke nuke.
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- Improved Renew
- - Spiritual Healing (after Imp. Ren)
- Improved Power Word: Fortitude
- - Mental Agility
- - - Mental Strength
- Shadow Focus
Hunter:
Probably the most cookie cutter of all builds right now. 31 in Marksmanship, 20 in Beast Mastery. This should happily change after the new talent tree revision.
Mages:
- ALL mage builds include 16 points in Arcane: IAM, AC, IAE, and Evocation.
- Nearly all builds are 20 in Arcane
- Fire Mages: 31 in Fire, 20 in Arcane <-- THE most cookie cutter mage build out there
- Frost Mages: 35 in Frost, 16 in Arcane
Paladins:
- Most Paladins have 31 points in Retribution
- There really aren't any killer options after that, so it's kind of "whatever" for the last 20 points.
Cookie Cutter Builds - NotSoDarklord - 08-03-2005
Gnollguy,Aug 3 2005, 07:12 PM Wrote:Actually it is very very hard to build a "bad" rogue. Rogues don't have bad talents really. They have several viable play styles but you need to approach what you do differently with each build. This is a good thing. A combat rogue does not play like an assassination rogue or subtlety rogue.
Rogues do have some bad talents. The last ones in each tree! Vigor = Awesome.... for dueling, and it can have some use for pve but since it doesn't increase actual energy regen rate it's pretty... useless :).
Initiative... I suppose is nice. But come on. Coldblood is more useful than vigor imho and initiative pales in comparison to prep.
Cookie Cutter Builds - Quark - 08-03-2005
*Ahem*
Improved Garrote? How could you possible talk about bad Rogue talents and skip Improved Garrote? It lowers your DPS!
Cookie Cutter Builds - savaughn - 08-04-2005
Quark,Aug 3 2005, 04:52 PM Wrote:*Ahem*
Improved Garrote? How could you possible talk about bad Rogue talents and skip Improved Garrote? It lowers your DPS!
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Each point gets you a 10% overall damage increase. That's pretty standard for the talents. Sure it pales compared to Increased Ambush, but that's because Increased Ambush is just stupidly powerful.
Cookie Cutter Builds - Brista - 08-04-2005
Quark,Aug 4 2005, 12:52 AM Wrote:*Ahem*
Improved Garrote? How could you possible talk about bad Rogue talents and skip Improved Garrote? It lowers your DPS!
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lowers dps on weak greens while improving it on tough mobs and elites
reasonable trade-off
Still, that would be the variant rogue build - the dot specialist. Not under-powered, just different
Cookie Cutter Builds - Artega - 08-04-2005
Artega,Aug 3 2005, 01:01 PM Wrote:31/20 and 31/5/15 Arms/Fury and Arms/Fury/Protection for Warriors.
23/7/21 Elemental/Enhancement/Restoration is popular for Shamans.
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Note that I haven't really considered either of these builds since 1.60 restructured some of the Warrior talents, so I'm improvising.
For 31/20:
5/5 Deflection
3/3 Improved Rend
5/5 Tactical Mastery
2/2 Improved Charge
2/2 Improved Overpower
3/3 Deep Wounds
1/2 Impale
5/5 Axe Specialization
1/1 Sweeping Strikes
3/3 Improved Hamstring
1/1 Mortal Strike
5/5 Cruelty
5/5 Unbridled Wrath
5/5 Improved Battle Shout
5/5 Enrage
For 31/5/15:
5/5 Deflection
3/3 Improved Rend
5/5 Tactical Mastery
2/2 Improved Charge
2/2 Improved Overpower
3/3 Deep Wounds
1/2 Impale
5/5 Sword Specialization
1/1 Sweeping Strikes
3/3 Improved Hamstring
1/1 Mortal Strike
5/5 Cruelty
5/5 Anticipation
5/5 Toughness
5/5 Defiance
For 23/7/21:
5/5 Concussion
5/5 Convection
4/5 Reverberation
1/1 Elemental Focus
5/5 Call of Thunder
1/1 Elemental Fury
2/2 Improved Fire Nova Totem
5/5 Ancestral Knowledge
2/2 Improved Ghost Wolf
5/5 Tidal Focus
5/5 Totemic Focus
5/5 Improved Lesser Healing Wave
5/5 Tidal Mastery
1/1 Nature's Swiftness
Cookie Cutter Builds - Quark - 08-04-2005
savaughn,Aug 3 2005, 08:27 PM Wrote:Each point gets you a 10% overall damage increase. That's pretty standard for the talents. Sure it pales compared to Increased Ambush, but that's because Increased Ambush is just stupidly powerful.
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Garrote's already weaker than the other openings, and it still doesn't get all it's ticks in most of the time. The talent makes it worse - not better. If I use Garrote anymore, even on a super-armored boss, it's just to laugh. It's just never worth it, especially considering how often it gets kicked off to the debuff limit (yay, that's changing!).
Cookie Cutter Builds - Bob the Beholder - 08-04-2005
savaughn,Aug 3 2005, 10:22 PM Wrote:Actually, the Shadow priest base is 33 Shadow, 8 Discipline, and 10 points left over that can get mixed across the trees. Those 10 points generally get sprinkled into the following:
- Improved Renew
- - Spiritual Healing (after Imp. Ren)
- Improved Power Word: Fortitude
- - Mental Agility
- - - Mental Strength
- Shadow Focus
Hunter:
Probably the most cookie cutter of all builds right now. 31 in Marksmanship, 20 in Beast Mastery. This should happily change after the new talent tree revision.
Mages:
- ALL mage builds include 16 points in Arcane:Â IAM, AC, IAE, and Evocation.
- Nearly all builds are 20 in Arcane
- Fire Mages:Â 31 in Fire, 20 in Arcane <-- THE most cookie cutter mage build out there
- Frost Mages:Â 35 in Frost, 16 in Arcane
Paladins:
- Most Paladins have 31 points in Retribution
- There really aren't any killer options after that, so it's kind of "whatever" for the last 20 points.
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Forgive me if this is taken as an insult, or a bash to PvE, but are these taken from a PvE server?
It seems like it, sorta. I've built a mage to 60 and played with a hunter for a good long time, and I have NEVER found a mage (myself or someone else) to pick Combustion over Presence of Mind, in the usual fire/arcane build, on my PvP server. Not once. Most common, I've found, is 21 arcane 30 fire. I'm thinking that PvE a guaranteed crit may be more important that an instant spell. No so against other players.
Most frost mages even give up Ice Barrier for Presence of Mind. It's just that good.
As to the hunter talents, I've also never seen anyone advocate picking beastmastery over survival. I've talked to a few hunters, and people seemed to consider the PvP advantage of Improved Wing Clip, Lightning Reflexes, and Deflection far more important than anything in the beastmastery tree.
Of course, that last one said, many hunters who PvP solo tend to go 30 marksmanship/21 survival, because the combination of counterattack and scatter shot are as close as a hunter can get to an I win button, in my experience.
Cookie cutter builds tend to be pretty common on PvP servers. When you're forced to fight other players who can power-game all they want, it tends to be more important to give yourself every advantage you can than to be individualistic.