+- The Lurker Lounge Forums (https://www.lurkerlounge.com/forums)
+-- Forum: Lurker Games (https://www.lurkerlounge.com/forums/forum-6.html)
+--- Forum: World of Warcraft (https://www.lurkerlounge.com/forums/forum-16.html)
+--- Thread: Druid Epic/Legendary Item (/thread-4473.html)
Pages:
1
2
Druid Epic/Legendary Item - Zarathustra - 04-24-2006
Let's pretend, for a moment, that Blizzard implements a long, epic quest line to obtain an item. It would be very much akin to the Priest or Hunter quests. At the end of this chain of quests is an epic/legendary item reward. How would YOU tune that item to make it suitable for an endgame Druid?
I've got my own ideas, but would rather not color the conversation with them just yet. I'm eager to see what others come up with.
Druid Epic/Legendary Item - MongoJerry - 04-24-2006
I don't have specific ideas, but one of the problems is that some stats and abilities are only useful in certain forms. One way Blizzard smartly got around this with the recently added Mace of Unending Life was to have different effects depending on the form you are in. I would imagine that such an epic/legendary item would work that way.
Edit: I have to stop posting when I don't have time to proofread what I write.
Druid Epic/Legendary Item - Warlock - 04-24-2006
I'd plump for a switching staff with three or even four forms.
Melee dps appropriate for ilvl in each form. Enough +Feral AP in all forms so use in bear gets the same base dps as use in caster.
#1 "of the mind": Druid version of Anathema.
#2 "of the body": Str, Stam, Agi, armour, feral specials. Graphic for this form is dual claw (though still a staff).
#3 "of the soul": Druid version of Benediction.
Possibly add #4 "of the whole" with a balanced mix of all stats.
The quest should be harder/longer than the one for Benediction since the Druid is effectively getting three or four items for the same slot rather than two.
Druid Epic/Legendary Item - MongoJerry - 04-24-2006
Warlock,Apr 23 2006, 07:19 PM Wrote:I'd plump for a switching staff with three or even four forms.
I don't like the idea of a switching item for druids like the Benediction/Anathema staff, because druids by their nature are supposed to be able to switch roles and forms mid-fight. I think it'd be much better for the item to be similar to the Mace of Unending Life where the weapon automatically switches depending on what form your in -- perhaps bear & cat (melee), human (healer), and moonkin (damage dealing) forms.
Druid Epic/Legendary Item - Warlock - 04-24-2006
MongoJerry,Apr 24 2006, 05:30 PM Wrote:I don't like the idea of a switching item for druids like the Benediction/Anathema staff, because druids by their nature are supposed to be able to switch roles and forms mid-fight. I think it'd be much better for the item to be similar to the Mace of Unending Life where the weapon automatically switches depending on what form your in -- perhaps bear & cat (melee), human (healer), and moonkin (damage dealing) forms.
[right][snapback]108087[/snapback][/right]
Different take on Druids, basically. I don't think of Druids as a hybrid class (several jobs at once) but as a modular class (can switch between jobs). A Shaman or Paladin can do melee damage or tank while mixing in spell casting; a Druid is much less efficient at that due to shifting costs, casts reseting the melee swing timer and not having melee damage or survivability when in caster form.
So with my Druid I collected gear for each job I did - tanking and healing in particular. As a groups main tank it's rare for shifting out mid fight to be a good idea and my base mana pool was already enough for brief shifts. Combat shifting when a group's sole healer isn't often a good move either. Hybrid gear would be useful when mixing Cat DPS with backup tanking/healing (basically when my job in that party was to be the hybrid), but wearing a mix of Tank and Healer pieces approximated that without needing bag space of it's own.
Druid Epic/Legendary Item - Quark - 04-24-2006
Honestly, as a druid, I'd rather have something that switches forms than something that tries to accomodate all forms.
Sure, I'll swap out some items on MC trash if I'm going cat/bear. But that's what ItemSync is for. When I'm full-time healing, I don't want a half-way item. That just means it's an inferior item to one that was full healing.
Edit: sure, in PvP, mixed items are good. But I haven't PvPed with my druid at all, yet. I'm starting to build up a completely different set for that, but that's the only place I truly consider items that dip into all fields.
Druid Epic/Legendary Item - MongoJerry - 04-24-2006
Quark,Apr 24 2006, 04:12 AM Wrote:Sure, I'll swap out some items on MC trash if I'm going cat/bear. But that's what ItemSync is for. When I'm full-time healing, I don't want a half-way item. That just means it's an inferior item to one that was full healing.
Edit: sure, in PvP, mixed items are good. But I haven't PvPed with my druid at all, yet. I'm starting to build up a completely different set for that, but that's the only place I truly consider items that dip into all fields.
[right][snapback]108092[/snapback][/right]
Why does everyone assume that the only thing I think about is PvP? You know I'm in a heavy raiding PvE guild, right? Anyway, why do you assume that an item which caters to all druids would be a half-way item? Again take a look at the Mace of Unending Life as an example of what I think more druid directed items should be like. I don't consider that a half-way item at all. It's all caster when in caster form and all feral when in feral form. As long as the item budget treats the effects in different forms seperately, you can end up with an item that is always good for the druid no matter what form the druid is in.
And as far as your play, you mean you never switch forms when you're soloing? You don't cast a spell at something a long way off to pull it, switch to cat form to dps it, maybe switch to human form to heal yourself or entangle an add, and then switch to bear form to tank the mob and finish it off? You don't do any of that kind of stuff? It seems to be the standard procedure as far as I've seen. I rarely see druids stay in one form for long stretches of time. To have a weapon that one has to constantly click on to get it in the right configuration for the moment and then have it not be very good whenever the druid switches to another form would not make it very legendary to me.
Druid Epic/Legendary Item - Quark - 04-24-2006
MongoJerry,Apr 24 2006, 06:53 AM Wrote:Why does everyone assume that the only thing I think about is PvP?I didn't. I was simply adding in my exception to my rule, nothing else.
Quote:Anyway, why do you assume that an item which caters to all druids would be a half-way item? Again take a look at the Mace of Unending Life as an example of what I think more druid directed items should be like. I don't consider that a half-way item at all. It's all caster when in caster form and all feral when in feral form. As long as the item budget treats the effects in different forms seperately, you can end up with an item that is always good for the druid no matter what form the druid is in.
I counter with Jindo's Hexxer, an item 4 ilvls lower. It has 11 more +healing and a crit chance on it to boot. They may be partially offsetting the item formula (I'd have to check my spreadsheet to find out), but they certainly aren't fully offsetting it.
Quote:And as far as your play, you mean you never switch forms when you're soloing? You don't cast a spell at something a long way off to pull it, switch to cat form to dps it, maybe switch to human form to heal yourself or entangle an add, and then switch to bear form to tank the mob and finish it off? You don't do any of that kind of stuff? It seems to be the standard procedure as far as I've seen. I rarely see druids stay in one form for long stretches of time. To have a weapon that one has to constantly click on to get it in the right configuration for the moment and then have it not be very good whenever the druid switches to another form would not make it very legendary to me.
[right][snapback]108095[/snapback][/right]
When I'm soloing, I typically spend as much time in cat as possible -> it's the highest DPS form. When I get in trouble, I'll use bearform and occassionally a Nature's Swiftness heal. My Healing Touch and Rejuvenation, even without all my +heal, is enough to keep me alive. My mana pool might run low, so then I Innervate and quickly go back to cat.
I have enough healing, I have enough mana, and much of my cat and bear gear can coexist. So I don't wear any healing gear at all while soloing.
Druid Epic/Legendary Item - MongoJerry - 04-24-2006
Quark,Apr 24 2006, 05:48 AM Wrote:I have enough healing, I have enough mana, and much of my cat and bear gear can coexist. So I don't wear any healing gear at all while soloing.
[right][snapback]108096[/snapback][/right]
That's fine, but let's get back to Zarathustra's question of how we would tune a legendary item "to make it suitable for an endgame Druid." You may have good enough gear to do fine now, but that shouldn't stop you from getting even better items. If a legendary druid item becomes available, I'm simply stating that to be legendary status, it ought to switch forms on the fly for the druid as the druid switches forms. Otherwise, it becomes yet another item that gets swapped in and out for the druid, which would diminish its "legendary" status to me.
And regarding the comparison of the Mace of Unending Life to Jindo's Hexxer, the Mace of Undending Life is +damage/healing, while Jindo's Hexxer is only +healing. Plus, the Mace of Undending Life has 2 more int, 4 more stamina, and 7 more agility.
Comparisons to current day items aside, though, a legendary druid item ought to have different strengths depending on what form the druid is in and the item budget cost for abilities that are only active in different druid forms should be counted seperately from one another.
Druid Epic/Legendary Item - Tuftears - 04-24-2006
Tuftears secured his Mace of Unending Life on April 22. *PURRRRR* :wub:
He also got the Thick Silithid Chestguard, Earthstrike, and in BWL later, Taut Dragonhide Pauldrons. He is now the Resto Druid That Walks Like A Cat.
This is the druid epic, folks. One weapon does it all. The amount of drudgery to get it is certainly on par with the work that goes into the hunter and priest epic quests, if not more so, culminating in enough AQ20 runs to get your Qiraji Ornate Hilt.
That said... A transforming weapon seems like a good match to the shifting nature of the druid. However, I could also see getting three separate weapons that we could switch between, or being offered a choice. Yes, it takes more inventory space, but on the other hand... Cooldown time on switching weapons, anyone?
Druid Epic/Legendary Item - Warlock - 04-24-2006
Comparing the Mace to the equivalent Priest reward, the Gavel swaps 40 +damage for 90 +healing and adds 4 mana/5sec. Looks like the Strength and Agility is taking up space in the item budget to me.
Druid Epic/Legendary Item - Watto44 - 04-25-2006
Tuftears,Apr 25 2006, 08:38 AM Wrote:Tuftears secured his Mace of Unending Life on April 22. *PURRRRR* :wub:/turns green. Really, really deep green. ;)
He also got the Thick Silithid Chestguard, Earthstrike, and in BWL later, Taut Dragonhide Pauldrons. He is now the Resto Druid That Walks Like A Cat.
This is the druid epic, folks. One weapon does it all. The amount of drudgery to get it is certainly on par with the work that goes into the hunter and priest epic quests, if not more so, culminating in enough AQ20 runs to get your Qiraji Ornate Hilt.
[right][snapback]108123[/snapback][/right]
Although MoEL is my ideal weapon at the moment, I can't really see it satisfying mookin druids that much, and it's certainly not a tanking weapon.
That's the basic problem with druid itemisation: crafting a nice item that fits all 4 druid playstyles is going to be very difficult using blizard's item formula. I suspect the high stat cost of the weapon could be worked around using the transforming thing that benediction has going on, but that's not really ideal as MJ pointed out.
On a slightly unrelated note, WTB [Tome of Knowledge II: Faster, Harder, SMARTER!] and [Warden's Staff: Heavy Duty Protection].
Druid Epic/Legendary Item - Skandranon - 04-25-2006
Watto44,Apr 24 2006, 08:16 PM Wrote:That's the basic problem with druid itemisation: crafting a nice item that fits all 4 druid playstyles is going to be very difficult using blizard's item formula. I suspect the high stat cost of the weapon could be worked around using the transforming thing that benediction has going on, but that's not really ideal as MJ pointed out.
[right][snapback]108126[/snapback][/right]
Well, at least one thing can be worked around. +X Attack Power in feral forms costs, wait for it, zero itemization points. Like DPS, it's free and scales with ilvl. In theory, every weapon in the game could have a +X AP in feral mod added to it and not change its value at all. Any druid weapon could have this modifier tossed on it in all forms it might take.
Druid Epic/Legendary Item - MongoJerry - 04-25-2006
Warlock,Apr 24 2006, 04:07 PM Wrote:Comparing the Mace to the equivalent Priest reward, the Gavel swaps 40 +damage for 90 +healing and adds 4 mana/5sec. Looks like the Strength and Agility is taking up space in the item budget to me.
[right][snapback]108125[/snapback][/right]
No one ever said they didn't. Focus, please. I used the Mace of Unending Life as a way to point out that an item already has powers specifically designed to benefit the druids in different forms. In caster form, the druid gets +40 damage/healing while in feral form, the druid gets +140 to attack power. This is the kind of thing that a legendary druid weapon should do. I don't understand your obsession with discussing the item budget of the MoUL, since the discussion is about what we would like a hypothetical legenedary druid weapon to be like. Why wouldn't you want the weapon to do this? Do you like the idea of clicking on your weapon every time you change form?
Skandranon Wrote:Well, at least one thing can be worked around. +X Attack Power in feral forms costs, wait for it, zero itemization points. Like DPS, it's free and scales with ilvl. In theory, every weapon in the game could have a +X AP in feral mod added to it and not change its value at all. Any druid weapon could have this modifier tossed on it in all forms it might take.
It's not exactly that it would cost 0 itemization points. It's just that the feral form costs would be tabulated in a seperate column from the caster stats. That is, the item gets a certain number of general stats like stamina, int, etc. Then, pure caster stats are added like +damage/healing and +spell crit%. Add up the item budget costs of those caster stats then you add on effects for feral forms like attack power, armor, and defense that add up to the same item cost as the caster stats.
Druid Epic/Legendary Item - Warlock - 04-25-2006
I think of the +feral attack power as part of the item in the same way it's basic DPS is. For bear form equiping this is like a warrior going from a 50.6 DPS two-hander to a 60.6 DPS one. Looked at that way, the Mace's only bonus is the +damage - it's a caster focused item with a few physical stats. I'll admit that 99% of all weapons having the modifier 'the DPS of this item is useless to a feral Druid' does distort the picture somewhat :D
So it is a nice item, but given the chance to do the quest twice and select from a wider range of class appropriate rewards I'd take a pure healer item once (eg. the equivalent priest reward) and a pure feral reward (eg. Hammer of Bestial Fury) once and switch between them depending on the situation. I (like many, perhaps most druids) collect and carry several sets of specialist gear. Hence my switching class epic, intended to be good at each role rather than a rarely-used showpiece (once equivalently powerful items specialised in each role have been obtained).
Druid Epic/Legendary Item - Quark - 04-25-2006
MongoJerry,Apr 24 2006, 02:43 PM Wrote:That's fine, but let's get back to Zarathustra's question of how we would tune a legendary item "to make it suitable for an endgame Druid." You may have good enough gear to do fine now, but that shouldn't stop you from getting even better items. If a legendary druid item becomes available, I'm simply stating that to be legendary status, it ought to switch forms on the fly for the druid as the druid switches forms. Otherwise, it becomes yet another item that gets swapped in and out for the druid, which would diminish its "legendary" status to me.
Well, to me, diminishing the legendary status is making it comparable to epic items simply because it tries to be everything to everyone. Especially in the case of weapons, which are swappable in battle.
Quote:And regarding the comparison of the Mace of Unending Life to Jindo's Hexxer, the Mace of Undending Life is +damage/healing, while Jindo's Hexxer is only +healing. Plus, the Mace of Undending Life has 2 more int, 4 more stamina, and 7 more agility.My bad on the healing versus healing/damage. Skan's post further down points out my other error, the two together are harder to spot than either alone would have been.
Quote:Comparisons to current day items aside, though, a legendary druid item ought to have different strengths depending on what form the druid is in and the item budget cost for abilities that are only active in different druid forms should be counted seperately from one another.
[right][snapback]108115[/snapback][/right]
Well, looks like the +AP to feral is a step in that direction, but I doubt the typical attributes will ever be counted seperately. They didn't count them seperately for Wildheart, leaving it as a crappy set if you wanted to specialize in anything.
Druid Epic/Legendary Item - Kevin - 04-25-2006
MongoJerry,Apr 25 2006, 03:15 AM Wrote:No one ever said they didn't. Focus, please. I used the Mace of Unending Life as a way to point out that an item already has powers specifically designed to benefit the druids in different forms. In caster form, the druid gets +40 damage/healing while in feral form, the druid gets +140 to attack power. This is the kind of thing that a legendary druid weapon should do. I don't understand your obsession with discussing the item budget of the MoUL, since the discussion is about what we would like a hypothetical legenedary druid weapon to be like. Why wouldn't you want the weapon to do this? Do you like the idea of clicking on your weapon every time you change form?
[right][snapback]108137[/snapback][/right]
I would love for Blizzard to think this way but to do it you would have to tie some of the stats to "in cat, in bear, etc" If you didn't you blow itemization budget on stats that don't help. I'm pretty sure game code is actually checking this stuff. That they can't just slap numbers on there and not have the game itself say "bad item boot you to desktop".
I'm not saying it can't be done and I would prefer that it be done without having to click the item each time you change forms (or really without having to make a macro to do it for you). But right now I don't see game mechanics that would allow it.
The item to be legendary would need
str
agi
stam
int
spi
armor
+damage/healing (or +one or the other like bene/ana)
+mana/5
+feral AP (free)
etc
etc
Druids use every stat, and every bonus at some point. One item, without new mechanism, can't hold them all. As pointed out the mace is a caster centric item with a few feral nods thrown at it. But you take the str and agi off it you can make it a better caster item than it is. The game mechanics don't work well for it.
There might be a way for blizzard to get around this though and allow you to only have the one item equiped because I agree that having to change the weapon all the time with how much a druid might shift (and I do it even in places like BWL, there are times I'm cat, bear, caster, healer all in the same fight in there and the choices of form I took are generally considered the best choice for me to make by many people).
So how do you fix it? A legendary set that use the main hand, off hand, and relic slots. You slap one type of stat on one item and other on the other, and another on the other. You can put set bonus in to help it out and make sure people don't want to mix and match the legendaries with epics at least not most of the time.
It might not work, it migh make it too powerful, but it would let you stay in the existing item budgets and benefit all the forms without the druid having to manually change something everytime. Precedent was set with the hunter epic, though that was changed from a transformer to the 2 items for different reasons.
But you split the thing up and you have 3 items slots to spend budget for 4 forms, cat, bear, caster, healer. So that makes it legendary, you put some of the best bonus on the set bonus to keep them all equiped and you might have a solution that fits the current game mechanics.
Just some thoughts.
Druid Epic/Legendary Item - MongoJerry - 04-26-2006
Gnollguy,Apr 25 2006, 08:36 AM Wrote:But you split the thing up and you have 3 items slots to spend budget for 4 forms, cat, bear, caster, healer. So that makes it legendary, you put some of the best bonus on the set bonus to keep them all equiped and you might have a solution that fits the current game mechanics.
Just some thoughts.
[right][snapback]108160[/snapback][/right]
Yep. Then again, game mechanics can be changed, and it seems reasonable that this is a case that would be deserving of change.
So, Zarathustra, sorry for the sidetracking your discussion. What were your ideas for an epic/legendary druid weapon?
Druid Epic/Legendary Item - oldmandennis - 04-27-2006
^^ likes GG's idea
Druid Epic/Legendary Item - Rudishoes - 04-27-2006
It already exists. :P