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Bows for strafe/FA zon - Saga_Keeper - 04-06-2003

first bow, lysanders does way more damage(fires 9/2), but keeping 2 frame strafe and cannot be frozen etc. I can't add knockback, no feasibly way to do it without adding a GLARING weakness.
Second bow, a decent rare martiarchal with 85% ed, some elemental damage (yes cold), and fools built in, but makes me lose about 180 average damage yet fires freeze arrow a frame faster(8/2), and I can add knockback into my gear setup, and not break my cannot be frozen etc.
Please vote...
Zon is level 66 currently...
Saga_Keeper

Bows for strafe/FA zon - ALnitak - 04-07-2003

Hi,

One thing I don't understand here : why can't you keep cannot be frozen while having knockback with Lycander's ? Cannot be frozen is prolly on one of your rings (ravenfrost), and knockback either on your bow with a nef rune (but this isn't the option you chose), or on crafted hitpower gloves (or cleglaw).

If you currently have nice rare/crafted blood gloves with nice mods (20%IAS, +to stats), you could possibly craft similar gloves with the hitpower recipe, and get knockback on them, so I don't why there is
Quote:no feasibly way to do it without adding a GLARING weakness.

Could you be more precise as for the gear you use with your two bows ? What's the exact amount of cold damage on your matriarchal bow ?

Now, to help you decide... You fire at 2 frames for strafe with those two bows, so no difference : if strafe is your main skill, and since it's a physical damage skill, I would go for Lycander's - or try to trade for a better %ED one.

You don't care about your physical damage when using freezing arrow, provided you have enough mana leech to use it constantly. If freezing arrow is your main attack (depending on the situations, might be the case in the cow level for e.g.), then your matriarchal bow could be better, firing one frame faster.

But it depends on your overall gear as well, I think we need to know what you exact gear you use to help you decide.

Bows for strafe/FA zon - Taem - 04-07-2003

I choose lysanders because I HATE zons with knockback with a passion!!! :angry:

I dislike them when I'm trying to fight mobs!

I dislike them when I'm trying to kill a single monster!

I HATE them when I'm trying to fight cows!

Down with the knockback bows!!!

Bows for strafe/FA zon - Nicodemus Phaulkon - 04-07-2003

Quote: I choose lysanders because I HATE zons with knockback with a passion!!!

I've played as both a melee character with KBing amazon partners, and as a KBing Amazon with melee partners.

Knockback is an indespensible tool for a 'zon. It accomplishes a lot of answers for a lack of Defense rating and a lack of resistances that a Bowazon invariably has. Keeping an MSLEB pinned to a wall, and out of the range of his sparks, is a good thing for ALL involved.

Thus, it has been my experience that people who detest Knockback are invariably people who have no idea how to adapt themselves in a multi-player gaming environment. They protest against the Ranged attackers' Knockback ability because they have no idea how to cooperatively act with its benefit. They have no idea how to assume a different role without it being "attack everything that moves". The same could be said if the Knockback 'zon is spamming Multishot in every direction at once. They obviously cannot/will not accept how to cooperate within a multiplayer situation.

In essence: both parties haven't a bloody clue how to play the game.

*tips helm*

Bows for strafe/FA zon - CorwinBrute - 04-07-2003

Well, for a Strafe/FA build, you want a 2 frames Strafe (which you got with either bow). You also want a long cold duration, which does not depend on your bow. For FA, 9 frames is plenty fast already. And if monsters are frozen, then it's no biggie if the first arrow of your Strafe round takes one more frame.

In short, I think you would be better with Lycander's. I'd like to know why you can't add KB to your Lycander's equipment list, though ? Could you list some specifics ?

Bows for strafe/FA zon - Saga_Keeper - 04-07-2003

Rereead the bow, I'm using shael lysanders to meet the 9/2 frame rate, otherwise I'd be at 9/3
Using:
15% ias tal's mask
15% ias duriel's shell
30% from sigon gloves/boots (with lysanders)
10% ias knockback hitpower gloves/tear haunch with other bow
highlord's wrath
razortail (for "100%" pierce with freezing arrow)
I have 20 strafe, and 20 freezing arrow, I use them both fairly equally(slight leaning toward freezing arrow for packs, and strafe for scattered).
In order to put knockback into the lysander's setup I have to give up resists and leech I can't afford to give up, or duriels shell (for some 2+ socket armor/twichertoe w/ ias) since on both setups I am at the very very bottom of the speed breakpoints.
So it's a matter of damage vs utility... and I'm a bit torn.
-Saga_Keeper

Bows for strafe/FA zon - LavCat - 04-07-2003

I think howltusk with a nice IAS jewel would do it, and you would still have life leach from your boots and gloves. Mana leach you could get from a ring. And with howltusk, if you take any damage you won't need much mana leech.

Does razortail really pierce at 100%? Arreat says "33" and I'm not sure what that means.

Bows for strafe/FA zon - Saga_Keeper - 04-07-2003

Freezing arrow takes a ton of mana, so that's out... With the other bow, tal's is my only source of life leech, it gives a big hunk of hps/mana/resists which I need ;)
I have the pierce skill+razor tail. They stack.
I basically took a frost maiden originally, and ended up with strafe as well... now I just need to put the rest of my points somwhere
OH RINGS, 2 7% manalds, I love them BUNCHES, even IF my meleemancer can't kill things right now.
-Saga_Keeper

Bows for strafe/FA zon - ALnitak - 04-07-2003

Quote:Rereead the bow, I'm using shael lysanders to meet the 9/2 frame rate

Perhaps I've expressed myself badly when I said that :

Quote:One thing I don't understand here : why can't you keep cannot be frozen while having knockback with Lycander's ?

I was meaning : considering you can have knockback on gloves (and not only on a bow), why can't you have it, even if your Lycander's aim is shaeled ? Now I have the answer, it's because you need 30% IAS from Sigon's boots and gloves.

Have you considered using Steelskull as a helm ? If you think putting a 15%IAS jewel in a %MF item is kinda a sacrilege, you could try to find or trade for a low %MF one, so that it would be no big deal. Compared to Tal Rasha mask, you'll lose 5% to both leeches : I think your mana leech is high enough as it is, with 14% from 2 manald heal and 10% from Tal Rasha ; losing 5% there won't change things radically I guess. Plus, if you really have mana leech problems, the other part of the equation (that is damage, not only mana leech) has to be taken into consideration : try to wear +to max damage (or min damage) charms, +to dex charms... etc... boost your physical damage a bit so that you can handle the use of level 20 freezing arrow.

I think it would be easier with Lycander's, and the 10+15=25%IAS from IASed stealskull will allow you to drop sigon's boots and gloves for better stuff and mods, including the knockback you seem to be attached to : you'll have to craft or trade for 20%IAS hitpower gloves, to keep your 8th frame with Lycander's. You could even have mana leech and or life leech on them.

Another thing that could make you hesitate switching your Tal Rasha mask would be the +to life and resists it provides. Well, +60 to life may be appealing : keep in mind you can have that on 3 small charms, whereas IAS or knockback, you can't have it on charms... Do you have some room in your inventory ?

As for +15 to resists, I really think that doesn't change much. My bowazons have around -70 or -40 to resists in hell : the point is not to be hit. I would say that poison resist is useless (except versus Achmel the Cursed, but if you are far away enough from him, there's no problem) ; I usually counter my low cold resist with cold absorb on ravenfrost, but as you use two manald heal, that will be maybe impossible for you.. hum... Duriel's shell allows you not be frozen, that's the most important. About lightning resist, 15% won't change the result of a MSLE boss (unless you are at max lightning resist with Tal Rasha, and even...) : against such monsters, the trick is either to avoid the missiles by your own - being careful -, or use slow missiles. Last, fire resist... The most annoying monsters to me are stygian furies : same here, I use slow missile to keep me out of danger.

I try to convince you resists are not that important for a bowazon, provided she can kill fast, move quite fast. Considering you'd have knockback and lycander's aim, fire at 8fps with the little gear changes I proposed, it would be easy not to die that often. Anyways, you're on your own, and what I proposed can surely be improved. And if you feel like your resists are too low, you could improve them using resist small charms, adapted to your needs (either +5% resist all charms, or +11% to a precise resist).

CorwinBrute raised a point about freezing duration : if you go for Lycander's, you won't have cold damage on your bow - you'll have it from FA skill, though. Consider unsing some +to cold damage charms (the longer the better), or ravenfrost (if you feel like it's possible to give up a manald heal : Lycander's aim has mana leech, so that could be possible IMO).

Bows for strafe/FA zon - Taem - 04-07-2003

Nicodemus Phaulkon,Apr 7 2003, 07:03 AM Wrote:I've played as both a melee character with KBing amazon partners, and as a KBing Amazon with melee partners.

Knockback is an indespensible tool for a 'zon.  It accomplishes a lot of answers for a lack of Defense rating and a lack of resistances that a Bowazon invariably has.  Keeping an MSLEB pinned to a wall, and out of the range of his sparks, is a good thing for ALL involved.

Thus, it has been my experience that people who detest Knockback are invariably people who have no idea how to adapt themselves in a multi-player gaming environment.  They protest against the Ranged attackers' Knockback ability because they have no idea how to cooperatively act with its benefit.  They have no idea how to assume a different role without it being "attack everything that moves".  The same could be said if the Knockback 'zon is spamming Multishot in every direction at once.  They obviously cannot/will not accept how to cooperate within a multiplayer situation. 

In essence:  both parties haven't a bloody clue how to play the game.

*tips helm*

-EDIT- I realized two important things AFTER posting this and re-reading it three times and realizing something was still not right: 1.) Nicodemus Phaulkon's post was not directed at me but at people who do not co-operativly play. 2.) He did say that "Thus, it has been my experience that," meaning more or less that it is he opinion, not neccessarily a FACT as I deemed it. Apparently I am the one with egg on my face and I have to appologize, Nicodemus, for my harsh reaction to your post. It was unwarrented and you deserve more respect than that. Sorry for my mal-judgement. I will leave the original post here for comments, since my opinion of knockback + Amazons has not changed.

-ORIGINAL- First off, I just want to state that I totally respect your “opinions”, but I don't like it when you state something as fact by saying THEY do this and THEY do that instead of saying, “in my opinion.” I am not telling you what to type or how to act, but I feel offended that you consider me a “clueless” co-op player just because I stated my opinion on knockback. Your opinions are awfully one-sided considering you don’t even know me.

Quote:They protest against the Ranged attackers' Knockback ability because they have no idea how to cooperatively act with its benefit. They have no idea how to assume a different role without it being "attack everything that moves".

I find what you say mostly intriguing because it is my experience, also from having played all classes in all difficulties like you, that most of these knockback Amazons are indeed “trying” to be helpful, however most of the time end up pushing away all my targets. I am hardly a monster killing hog as I prefer a co-op play style, even with my amazons, but when I try an gather a mob of monsters, be it in act I through act 5, I’ve had knockback Amazons inevitably blast my mob all over the screen. This is especially irking when playing a paladin and trying desperately to zeal a monster and having it shot further and further away. I believe my most memorable experiences are in act 3, always a melee friend any myself hacking our way to Travincial when one or two Amazons party up, take our Town Portal, then start spamming MA all over the place. We frantically run to even get a single kill, but atlas, we cannot. What makes it worse is that it seems at least 50% of the time the Amazons spamming MA have such a weak damage that the monsters seem to regenerate faster than the Amazons deal damage, yet however clueless the “helpful” Amazon believes she is, will continue to spam MA relentlessly.

Perhaps I have just been unfortunate enough to only play with MA spamming monster killing hogs, but this has been my experience nonetheless, and I can't deny that, nor can you convince me otherwise by telling me that it is "my" style of play that is wrong. I have felt nothing but frustration when playing with knockback Amazons, and besides, I've played pre 1.04 and now in 1.09 just fine without any knockback, so I consider your statement of knockback being “indispensable” not only obsolete, but a falsehood.

I feel like I may get egg in my face for taking what you said the wrong way, and I don't want to sound like a brute. Often stating ones opinion is a delicate matter and I've had my share of misunderstandings. I do, however, want to thank you for presenting me with 'the other side' of the argument, as I'd be stupid not to consider all possibilities. I believe you have some valid points from your experiences with those you have played with, and I admire your gaming groups. Until our next conversation.

Bows for strafe/FA zon - Nicodemus Phaulkon - 04-08-2003

Quote:-EDIT- I realized two important things AFTER posting this and re-reading it three times and realizing something was still not right: 1.) Nicodemus Phaulkon's post was not directed at me but at people who do not co-operativly play. 2.) He did say that "Thus, it has been my experience that," meaning more or less that it is he opinion, not neccessarily a FACT as I deemed it. Apparently I am the one with egg on my face and I have to appologize, Nicodemus, for my harsh reaction to your post.

*shrugs* I'm blunt. To a fault, most days. I can appreciate where you saw a personal barb. No harm, no foul.

Quote:I am not telling you what to type or how to act, but I feel offended that you consider me a “clueless” co-op player just because I stated my opinion on knockback. Your opinions are awfully one-sided considering you don’t even know me.

My opinions, as you realized, were not formed against your claims, but from over 2.5 years of playing as/with Knockback 'zons from a population base of over 40 players. From Act 1 of Normal through to the repetative slaughter that is Hell Cows, Knockback 'zons that I've known have understood their place and their strength. However, I'm spoiled in that regard. These are people that understand how to make a threat move, not move, or disappear... whichever best benefits a party.

I've always considered playing a 'zon akin to ranged fencing: different techniques for different situations. A fencer doesn't stop the match to switch his gloves or his foil... he simply adapts his technique to compensate and overcome his opponent. I consider the 'zon's usage of her multiple skills, all with the same weapon, a similar task.

Quote:Perhaps I have just been unfortunate enough to only play with MA spamming monster killing hogs, but this has been my experience nonetheless, and I can't deny that, nor can you convince me otherwise by telling me that it is "my" style of play that is wrong.

Not so much that a style is "wrong", but just not beneficial to the group. Then again, one can hardly find a beneficial cooperative style when you're dealing with morons in the game.

Quote:I have felt nothing but frustration when playing with knockback Amazons, and besides, I've played pre 1.04 and now in 1.09 just fine without any knockback, so I consider your statement of knockback being “indispensable” not only obsolete, but a falsehood.

Perhaps "indispensable" was too broad a term. "Smart" comes to mind. I've had this KBack debate several times in the past. It comes down to basics, eventually (Like if you appreciate running your ass off from Fanated Frenzytaurs or Convicted LEBs, or pushing them into a far corner for quick reparations). Certainly one can play without KBack... but I certainly wouldn't advise it.

*tips helm*

Bows for strafe/FA zon - LavCat - 04-08-2003

I used to dislike knockback on a bow. In D1 I actually found a good Windforce (unlike in D2), but all it seemed to do was knock targets out of range, or out of the path of arrows.

In D2 knockback seems to work more effectively. I can't do a more direct comparison until I get a D2 Windforce I suppose, but if I ever find one I will let you know!

I'm sure people are sick of my saying what a wonderful combination knockback and blind target make.

Bows for strafe/FA zon - Elric of Grans - 04-08-2003

Hail LavCat,

Back in DI, that was my favourite bow. Once you got used to the mechanics of the knockback, it became second nature to correct your aim before you make the next shot. In DII, it's not quite so big as it once was, but I still love my Windie. The mechanics have changed, but the basic strategies have not: once you have half a clue on how to use it, you suddenly have one of the most valuable defenses in the game!

Bows for strafe/FA zon - Saga_Keeper - 04-08-2003

I went with the matriarchal as I crafted a nice pair of blood boots with 30% run and some good resists. (ie better then sigons) and I find the extra frame to be somewhat beneficial, I've played the build long enoguh to notice, and if you do the math the actual damage lost over time isn't nearly as bad... and knockback is simply amazing. And well, trading as we all know, just sucks lately on the realms.
-Saga_Keeper

Bows for strafe/FA zon - XOblivionX - 04-10-2003

Saga_Keeper,Apr 8 2003, 07:34 AM Wrote:I went with the matriarchal as I crafted a nice pair of blood boots with 30% run and some good resists. (ie better then sigons) and I find the extra frame to be somewhat beneficial, I've played the build long enoguh to notice, and if you do the math the actual damage lost over time isn't nearly as bad... and knockback is simply amazing. And well, trading as we all know, just sucks lately on the realms.
-Saga_Keeper
Usually, KB is not a big problem for melee players, so i can hardly imagine that any one can have problems with it. But, if u do say that it was wut happened, Im ready to take that in account.

Actually, I dont thank KB knocks them back ALOT, just enough to keep them out of your hair. If you have enough walk/run speed, it should be no problem catching the monsters and getting a few hits.

Furthermore, playing with knockback IS possible, and it NOT insane. It really all depends on how much damage you do. If you have enough damage to just kill the monster right away, I see no point on wasting an item slot on something thats main advantage is its knockback.

But, even with high damage, i find knockback to be a valuable accesory to the amazons skills. Having it is HIGHLY recommended.

Bows for strafe/FA zon - Saga_Keeper - 04-10-2003

Without using a *big* bow I don't really have the damage to just whomp the monsters into oblivion in decent sized games, knockback has proved invaluable for boss killing, and dealing with monsters my freezing arrow can't pacifiy (yay up to 5 seconds freezing time in hell!) And knockback also helps when something manages to get close during strafe lock and then gets slapped a step back and stops for that half moment.
I was getting knockback from my gloves slot for those of you still following the post by the latest reply and it's all good now. She's going to be into act 4 in hell pretty soon now, I just need to will myself to go down and kill mephisto (he's my worse nightmare as a zon for some reaoson, that cold ball always seems to find me)...
That and every level I gain, the damage gap in bows is less and less...
-Saga_Keeper

Bows for strafe/FA zon - Walkiry - 04-11-2003

Well, most people have ignored something of the rare bow that catched my eye: Fool's. There's something really appealing for strafing with a 95% chance of hitting anyone, anywhere. I'd take that bow.

Bows for strafe/FA zon - Saga_Keeper - 04-12-2003

Yeah it does have about twice the ar of lysander's... I suppose that should be mentioned :D
-Saga_Keeper

Bows for strafe/FA zon - Occhidiangela - 04-14-2003

It allows you to keep doing damage, even with 'normal attack.'

Plus, I like Rares better than Uniques, due to the duping MF madness of bnet. But that is just me. :)

Personal choice. And the faster attack of Strafe is goodness. :)

Bows for strafe/FA zon - Saga_Keeper - 04-15-2003

Whee happy days, got hands onto a cruel matty with poison damage, and it's GREEN, I haven't used a green bow since D2C.
-Saga_Keeper