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As to what concerns the most deadly builts out... - Fragbait - 05-13-2003

Hail fellow lurkers,

I'd like to know of you which builts of which characters (for example A Lightning Fury Javazone) are the deadliest out there.
It' s all about the current Point Release, 1.09d (IIRC??).

So -
Tell me your thoughts of ultimate mass-killers, fast-levelers and simply the best (-playable) builts - while maybe not the most fun to play - but still probably the most common builts that exist on the net.

example: I'm not adressing any Bow-Barbs here, so don't answer !

CU, Fragbait

As to what concerns the most deadly builts out... - Walkiry - 05-13-2003

I don't think it can get much worse than a buriza multizon to be honest. Perhaps a perfect Goldstrike in certain levels, but without the massive cold damage it'll be hard pressed in certain areas (depends on how many elemental damage charms you stack I suppose).

As to what concerns the most deadly builts out... - Jugalator - 05-13-2003

I think Windforce zon's equipped to the teeth with IAS gear are pretty devastating too. :)

Hm... Frozen Orb + Nova Sorc's are also common, boring cookie cutter Sorc's :)

As to what concerns the most deadly builts out... - WarBlade - 05-13-2003

The answer is complex and begs the question: "In which difficulty level is this character likely to be?"

There are some Amazons out there that would fit the description of "fast killer".
Similarly, a Soceress will yield a quicker result for certain bosses.
Conversely, fast progress through the game also includes the safety issue and survivabilty in all encounters, at which point the non-shield waving Amazon starts to get a little tricky.


Amazons are routinely fast killers in many areas.
Barbarians are routinely well equipped for most boss encounters.
Paladins have skill options to overcome most problems.
Necromancers, while slow, have high survivability options.

etc etc etc

As to what concerns the most deadly builts out... - Fragbait - 05-13-2003

You thought about calling yourself WarDagger? Would be just as nice! :P :D

Barbarians for Boss Monsters only? Did they lose their capability of killing masses, e.g. with whirlwind?(let's not assume being in the Chaos Sanctuary)
What about an Assassin? Are there builts who can level as fast as OrbSorcs or Bowzones/Javazones?
A Druid with Fury? Or is perhaps the skill Maul in bear form devastating, perhaps after stunning with shockwave?

The difficulty level I was speaking of is hell. End of hell, I suppose, with plenty of exp that the monsters give, e.g. bloody runs or river of flame or whatever.

I disagree that Palas and Necros are capable of so fast leveling than other classes...+
I won't argue 'bout their versatility or safety though - the class certain players prefer depends largely on their art of playing and on their definition of coolness and style.

What I wanted to know is: Which builts of which classes have GENERALLY on the HIGHEST difficulty level the power to slay more monsters faster
(let's define us a nice little group of mixed Immunies, Lightning/Fire/Ice/Poison/Physical, mixed Ranges, Melee/Mid-Range/Long-Range, mixed damage infliction, Elemental/Physical/Magical, mixed monster types, Normal/Minion/Boss/Champion/Super Unique, and they are all situated in a non-existing standart level which has an average structure in terms of narrow rooms or long halls or even wide glades)

than the other builts?

I think that these builts must also be the ones that are fairly common on the realms and the open b-net, for there are many players that want to level fast.

I'm not talking 'bout PvP here - I might be wanting to make another thread about this issue B)

So is there one 'Kill All Because Definitely Superior Built'?

Can the expansion characters compete?

Thank you for your input...

CU, Fragbait

As to what concerns the most deadly builts out... - WarBlade - 05-13-2003

Fragbait,May 13 2003, 11:41 PM Wrote:You thought about calling yourself WarDagger? Would be just as nice!  :P  :D
No

Quote:Barbarians for Boss Monsters only? Did they lose their capability of killing masses, e.g. with whirlwind?(let's not assume being in the Chaos Sanctuary)
What about an Assassin? Are there builts who can level as fast as OrbSorcs or Bowzones/Javazones?
A Druid with Fury? Or is perhaps the skill Maul in bear form devastating, perhaps after stunning with shockwave?

I never said a number of things that you apparently think I did.

"Barbarians for Boss Monsters only?" and just below, "I disagree that Palas and Necros are capable of so fast leveling than other classes" are products of your imagination. You might want to read those parts more carefully before forming responses for them.

Anyway, Assassins aren't particularly fast in Hell level. Fury wolf Druids rock Nightmare, but the PI's in Hell mean levels where he basically shifts into first gear and wombles through at a snail's pace. A PI LEB can be begging for parking manoevres in those places. Maul and Stun? Not a very quick run through Hell I'm afraid.

Quote:What I wanted to know is: Which builts of which classes have GENERALLY on the HIGHEST difficulty level the power to slay more monsters faster than the other builts?

There is no "fastest".

. . . and despite all the definitions you supplied monster desity plays a huge role in the case of the Amazon who can exploit a tight pack like no other.

*sigh*

Just take an Amazon. :blink: Lightning Fury, Freezing Arrow and Immolation Arrow should give you the cheap boredom you're going for. <_<

As to what concerns the most deadly builts out... - Fragbait - 05-13-2003

[I didn't want to step on your feet. If I did, I feel sorry. You can call me 'Afraidbait' if it helps ! :P

I know you didn't say so.
Quote:I never said a number of things that you apparently think I did.

I have been absent to playing the barb some time, so I was kind of surprised by your statement about him :unsure:
I asked the few questions in addition to my first ones, didn't mean no harm!

The truth is, I shouldn't have written "I disagree...". I'll take that back, but nevertheless I read what you answered, there's no need to answer me kind of offended like that. After all, we're sort of collegues, aren't we... :D

Moreover, I am convinced that there is a "fastest".

Must be there, in my opinion.

Whatever, seems I've forgotten Monster Density too.....

Last but not least:

Quote:Just take an Amazon.&nbsp; Lightning Fury, Freezing Arrow and Immolation Arrow should give you the cheap boredom you're going for.&nbsp;

Wrong. Now it's you who judges too fast!
To be exact, I wanted those builts to know what I won't do. That's right. I don't want 'cheap boredom'. I never said that.

Look at the Izu-Sorc Thread if you want to know more.

PS: there's no need for flaming when everybody knows that flames exist in every human heart and soul... ;)

Hail to you again WarBlade, I meant no harm. Thanks for the info anyway,

CU, Fragbait

As to what concerns the most deadly builts out... - WarBlade - 05-13-2003

Fragbait,May 14 2003, 01:25 AM Wrote:I wanted those builts to know what I won't do. That's right. I don't want 'cheap boredom'. I never said that.
What you never said and what you don't know yet are one and the same in this case.

Any super fast cookie cutter is IMO both cheap and boring to play. Example: After doing a single Hell cow run with my oldest Amazon ( Solo-8 ) I decided to swear off Bow-wielding Amazons for good. Many months later nostalgia had me opening up the character again and I took her for a spin.

5 minutes. Probably less actually, but that's about the length of time it took for a zero-danger multi-kill environment to remind me why swore off Bow 'Zon s in the first place. She had a sleep inducing lack of fun factor.

As to what concerns the most deadly builts out... - Fragbait - 05-13-2003

So I know now that Bowzones are definitely not what my next character will be. Err - I mean he/she won't be a Bowzone.
That's just what I wanted - a brief overview over those builts that are fast-killers/fast-levelers => not much fun => I won't play them.
Anybody else able to tell some of these "sleep-well-builts"? :rolleyes:

Anyway: work's out now and I'm going to get to play DII again.. Juhu... :D

Thanks WarBlade.

CU, Fragbait

As to what concerns the most deadly builts out... - Guest - 05-13-2003

For pure monster dropping - a tricked out multizon, a nova sorc, or a fire sorc all do great.

If you want to be able to kill anything including bosses but not quite as fast(but still quite fast) a 2 hand paly or barb with damage reduction(by points or by %) gear rules.
-Barb using Beserk(Get a freeezidin merc)
-Pally using Vengence with fanat and conviction(defiant or freezidin merc)

The important thing is to use the fast big 2 handed weapon.

As to what concerns the most deadly builts out... - Occhidiangela - 05-13-2003

Why not a Might Merc versus a Defiance merc? I understand why one would choose a Holy Freeze merc, in Hell particularly, but I am curious as to why you suggest Defiance versus Might for the two-handed weapon wielding Paladin. With a fast enough weapon, per your advice, and Fanatacism out the wazoo, would not killing speed be faster by using Might due to the massive damage increase? Also, faster reduction of LEB's on a swing count basis. My polearm using Paladin, who is now RIP due to not having played much in the past few months, used a Might merc. It worked out pretty well in Hell, and sure enough, I ended up maxing Vengeance when all was said and done.

Merely having the merc allows one to use position to avoid quite a few hits while you are dealing out loads of damage.

What does the Defiant merc give that makes defense better than offense when you are not using a shield in the first place? As I am currently nursing a two handed sword Paladin along with a Defiant Merc who I intendt to keep forever, I am curious. The mlvl-clvl curve in Hell difficulty still, IMO, trumps Defiance insofar as Monster To Hit % in later acts.

As to what concerns the most deadly builts out... - Guest - 05-13-2003

If you are leveling by killing fast you are going to be facing multiple attackers. If you are using super twinked out damage reduction gear this is not be a problem, but if you are just using "good" stuff the defense helps.
And really the damage on these builds is pretty huge already; since might is based on weapon damage not total damage the gains are not as good as you might like.

Also defiant/freezidin mercs live long if you solo.

I have used all 3. I had a might merc with my werebear because he could tank for ever but had low damage. He was never as tough as my def mercs despite using the same gear, and I spent more time watching out for him.

As to what concerns the most deadly builts out... - jondifool - 05-13-2003

Greetings Occhi Allow me to explain
The question Why using a might merc vs a defience merc is close to the question using 1hand/shield vs 2 handed, but with a little different trade off!

agreed with a might merc you kill faster , but not nessarry with a massive damage increase! We are talking characters there are already doing maybe around 1000% nonweapon enhanced damage, depending on the modifiers from skills, non weapon items and strength/dex(depending on weapons). Might skill does add around 200 % enhanced damage!

For a paladin (Unless using zeal ), the skill % damage range from 400% to 700% from the attack (lvl 20 skill or more in sacrifice, venegance or charge, ) . And around 260% from concentration or fanatism. Lets say around 150% from strength and minor something from non weapon items.

Thesse numbers point at might does an overall 20% total damage increase!.

On the other side does a lvl 18 defience merc adds 240% increase on defense rating.

And I tell you that with a good base defense rating (from 1 good armour) this really turns into something competing with a 20 % damage increase! Even when behind in the mlvl curve ( not that important, I once had a guide hosted here on lurkers pointing out that you could trail behind that curve and doing "ok" in terms off defence with a rather small defence % increase from skills).

I am to tired to calculate , but even without a extreame defense build it should be easy to keep on the right side of 1/2 chance to get hit! And with good items (and high enough character lvl) we are reaching the same (and higher area) as max block on shields.

So you can get the same benfits as from a shield (though not working on all the same attacks) but with out sacrificing more than 20 % damage. Thats often a good deal compared to the 1hand/shield loss of damage! (though paladins are not the best exsample here because off holy shields defense bonus!)

Please take not that if not using a high %damage primary attack (zeal!) , then the might aura would more likely add up to 40% to total damage and then it could look more beneficial! Also with the venegance/conviction combo as main attack the might skill again does not make a big difference to the overall damage , but it does alot to the amount leeched!

with regards
Jondifool

As to what concerns the most deadly builts out... - Guest - 05-13-2003

You explained that better than me :)

What I like for pure damage is vengence with conviction then flip to vengence fantacism if I need more life leach or anytime my mana dips. I suppose if physical damage is improved in 1.10 spending more time with Fanat may be better.

It seemed in 1.09 that my damage came out similar either way. I missed more with Fanat but "seemed" to hit harder. Its been a while though so Im not sure.

As to what concerns the most deadly builts out... - Kharohz - 05-14-2003

If you want to escape cookie cutters and the fast killing builds.

1. Simple, don't play in such areas like the cow level. It is only an easter egg anyhow.

2. Don't read any guides, just make your own characters. It is more fun that way.

3. Don't tweak or magic find. Or vice versa, depends on what you enjoy most.

Just be your own man, and you'll do fine.

As to what concerns the most deadly builts out... - DralaFi - 05-14-2003

Almost every build that is done properly can be quite deadly.

The only time that I actually followed a guide to make a character was "Nobbys" Arty Necromancer build.

The Lightning fury zon wasn't even know until select people tried and perfected the build. Some If I remember correctly were Lurkers. This one is one of the fastest killers especially in cow games.

Second I would say a speedazon, a very fun character to make. But hard if you don't have the right equipment. Extremely powerfull and easy to level.

One build that almost no one makes, is a Druid werewolf with a Bruiza or Windforce. 6 or 5 Frames attack speed (depending on how much IAS you get), insane damage, and with Fury a very nice killing machine.

Then almost all Barbarian builds are easy to do and in the end become very powerfull. A cookie cutter is a cookie cutter.

As to what concerns the most deadly builts out... - D-Dave - 05-15-2003

WarBlade,May 13 2003, 03:01 PM Wrote:5 minutes. Probably less actually, but that's about the length of time it took for a zero-danger multi-kill environment to remind me why swore off Bow 'Zon s in the first place. She had a sleep inducing lack of fun factor.
While the Bow using Amazon has argueably the most potential to be "abused" as a cooky cutter, this is only true for those playing within a very limited area of the game using only a limited number of approaches.

Easy part: the combination of doing physical damage (or more precise: damage one can leech mana and life from) without having to stand up face to face with the monsters is obviously the strong point of Bow using Amazons.

Weak part: many areas in the game do not favour amazons (mainly tight ones with lots of corners) single, strong, hard hitting monsters can be easy and quick death to (unskilled) amazons

I can clearly understand the general outcry about how overpowered Bow using Amazons are. They surpass most other builds in killing speed in the popular cheap-trick exp areas.
What most people forget is that it actualy takes skill to finish the full game. (In contrast to getting "rushed" past any possibly difficult part to get to Hell Cowgames where even an unskilled player can wreak havoc easily) So before putting the Bow using Amazon in the "boring" category, take an above average equiped "Bowazon" just do the quests...
Multishot one trick ponys won't cut it! A multi-skill (Strafe, Freezing Arrow, Immolation, Guided Arrow, Decoy, Slow Missile and yes, in some situations even the "Cookie-Cutter-Signature-Skill" Multishot)

Judging the fun of a whole class by the ease of clearing the foothills and the cow level with one skill sounds a lot like a predjudice to me.

C-C-S-Ss may make easy Characters for certain Situations, but if you let them break your enjoyment of a whole class it's your loss.

As to what concerns the most deadly builts out... - TaMeOlta - 05-15-2003

I suppose my Sorc is close to being a mass killer - except when facing lightning immunes :P.
Currently she is level 92 and her main killing spell is Charged Bolt (Lvl 28) , combined w/ Thunderstorm (Lvl 27) , and an alternating Hydra and Frozen Orb as backup spells . When facing large crowds , she releases a nice electric blanket to keep her foes warm , interspersed w/ Hydra and Orb (depending on immunities) , and shes also assisted by an act 1 rogue who's faithfully been by her side since normal - armed with Skystrike .

Probably not the most original build , nor the most deadly , but luckily she has very good resists , gold find , magic find , health and mana regeneration making her pretty sturdy and useful all around .

As to what concerns the most deadly builts out... - WarBlade - 05-16-2003

D-Dave,May 16 2003, 01:30 AM Wrote:While the Bow using Amazon has argueably the most potential to be "abused" as a cooky cutter, this is only true for those playing within a very limited area of the game using only a limited number of approaches.
The approaches I limited myself to was in making a total of two trades on that character and her skills were Valkyrie (Maxed) Magic Arrow (1 pt primary attack) and Freezing Arrow (Maxed alternate attack - Mana allowing) and high level Pierce.

The "very limited area of the game", as you put it, turned out to be from about cLvl 40 onwards. In other words, all of Nightmare and Hell.

Quote:Weak part: many areas in the game do not favour amazons (mainly tight ones with lots of corners) single, strong, hard hitting monsters can be easy and quick death to (unskilled) amazons

I count two problem areas. Hell Travincal gave me cause for caution and Hell Diablo himself was handing me my arse until I remembered ShadowHM's stash was packing a Rising Sun she was trying to trade away.

Quote:What most people forget is that it actualy takes skill to finish the full game.

Not with a bow on an Amazon it didn't. "Skill" equated to standing somewhere and blazing away until all immediate threats were disposed of, plus a few non-immediate threats more than a screen away. That's not skill. That's boredom.

BTW I was using Goldstrike from Act 5 Nightmare onwards and Cast on Attack wasn't (isn't) working for Open.

Quote:(In contrast to getting "rushed" past any possibly difficult part to get to Hell Cowgames where even an unskilled player can wreak havoc easily)&nbsp; So before putting the Bow using Amazon in the "boring" category, take an above average equiped "Bowazon" just do the quests...
Multishot one trick ponys won't cut it! A multi-skill (Strafe, Freezing Arrow, Immolation, Guided Arrow, Decoy, Slow Missile and yes, in some situations even the "Cookie-Cutter-Signature-Skill" Multishot)

Judging the fun of a whole class by the ease of clearing the foothills and the cow level with one skill sounds a lot like a predjudice to me.

I was playing mostly solo in "Players 8" (as in no rushing possible). I did one cow run. I don't run the Foothills. My judgment of the class is by her performance throughout the game and not restricted to the areas you suggest.

Basically I came to the realization that the relationship between Pierce and Some of the Amazon's upper level ranged attacks left a class that was outright pointless to play. It was like running through the game with a "God Mode" enabled. <_< And until Pierce and Valkyrie's get nerfed, my opinion will be unlikely to change.

She's sleep-inducingly boring. <_<

As to what concerns the most deadly builts out... - Vornzog - 05-16-2003

'Lo Lurkers

I've been lurking for quite some time now, trying to absorb a bit of the Diablo wisdom and witticisms that seems to abound here at the lounge. Bolty – thanks for bringing the site back up. I first found it after it went down, and I spent quite a bit of time wishing I’d known about it while it was active. It was a wonderful resource even then, but it’s even better now.

The combination of this thread and an experience I had yesterday finally pushed me over the edge – it’s about time I delurked. Yesterday, my bowazon got a significant boost in power. Perhaps too much of a boost for my liking.

You see, normally, I play in single player. Looking for a slightly different experience, I’ve been playing on Bnet. As a result, my equipment just got quite a bit better – a druid with an overfilled stash stopped by one of my games when my bowazon was level 5 and handed me a Kuko Shakaku (sp?). It didn’t seem like the sort of thing that would be duped, so I decided to keep it.

Yesterday, I was able to equip it, just in time to take down Baal in normal. It made that big ugly demon look like a cream puff. I think I drank one health potion.

Today, I took down Andarial in nm – with a total of six Immolation arrows. Poor girl never stood a chance.

Quote:It was like running through the game with a "God Mode" enabled.

That about sums it up right there. In single player, that fight against Andarial would have been an epic battle, worthy of writing a tale and posting it. My single player characters often don't finish nightmare, simply because it is a chore.

My experince finally confirmed for me something I had been told, but never understood. This game is about items, not skills. I think I could finish nm with the 'normal' explosive arrow attack from that bow and no points in skills. Sad really. And here I thought this nightmare thing was hard.

In short, I don't think Bowazons are significantly overpowered. I think the bows are. You can play a bowazon that isn't overpowered - just don't get godly equipment. Let the damage come from your skills. Get good a retreating, flanking, decoying, sidestepping and knowing when to just flat-out run. You are going to need every trick in the book, and maybe a few that aren't.

As for me? This bowazon is going to Hell (and hopefully back again). I want to be as blase about how easy Hell is as everyone else seems to be. But if I make another, she won't be getting any godly equipment. And if she goes to Hell, it will be because my skills as a player have gotten that much better.

Vornzog

- Edit: 3 proofreading passes, and I still make a typo... -