The Lurker Lounge Forums
I'm speechless. - Printable Version

+- The Lurker Lounge Forums (https://www.lurkerlounge.com/forums)
+-- Forum: The Lurker Lounge (https://www.lurkerlounge.com/forums/forum-4.html)
+--- Forum: The Lounge (https://www.lurkerlounge.com/forums/forum-12.html)
+--- Thread: I'm speechless. (/thread-10956.html)

Pages: 1 2 3 4

I'm speechless. - WarLocke - 06-30-2003

I just read this article (part 2 here).

I will now deliberately break the forum rules when I say, "That #$%&ing scares the #$%& out of me."

Apologies for the vulgar vocabulary, but there really aren't any other words that fit. It's especially creepy when I think of what may have happened to me if I had been born later.

I'm too old to be "sent" to one of these places now (I'm 23, so it would be kidnapping, and you can bet that I would be smashing noses and breaking kneecaps before they got me anywhere near an airplane), but I have some experience with this sort of thing.

Back in '95 or '96 I was living in Memphis with my father and his second wife. She had three daughters, one of which was in her early 20s, while the other two were 14 or so. All four of them were man-haters to the core. To this day I don't know what he saw in her. In any case, they all hated me from the go, simply because I inherited a nice big chunk of the family stubborness and didn't take crap from anybody--and I suppose the natural "rebellious teen" phase I may have been going through may have helped.

Anyway, so they couldn't get along with me, and I was very vocal about all the crap they pulled. Dad didn't really listen, since I was bad-mouthing his new wife and her kids, who all denied everything I said. I suppose it wasn't that hard of a choice, with it being my one voice against four.

Then the younger girls decided I had been molesting them. You can probably guess where that went. Dad had to have a "talk" with me, and when I denied having done with me he started in with the "Son, why are you lieing to me?" spiel.

Long story short, I was carted off to Vanderbilt, which I think was some university nearby but I've blocked out most of the details. I was settled into a dorm/hospital looking wing with a bunch of other "misfit" youths. They had the whole deal going on: I shared a room with another troublemaker (under the watchful eyes of security cameras) in a hall full of such rooms, bisected by the news/discussion room and these big hospital-sized double doors that only opened when another poor sod was admitted.

We got a little "free" time in our rooms in the evening (even though there was nothing to do except read whatever they "thoughtfully provided" us), but the rest of the day (other than meals) was taken up with second-rate guilt-trip crap. They'd make us stand up and "discuss" (by that I mean say how bad we were) the "transgressions" (what we supposedly did that was so bad) and discuss them. Then they'd send us individually to "councillors" who would "help" us accept responsibility for our actions. It wasn't nearly as bad as the unholy crap going on in Jamaica, but still.

After 3 or 4 months the psycho hose beast's little zergs finally slipped up and admitted that I hadn't done anything, so they "allowed" me to leave (oh wait, I could have left earlier, as soon as I had "admitted" that what I "did" was wrong and accepted "councilling").

Not a day goes by that I'm not thankful that I'm as strong-willed as I am. Death would be preferable to having my mind #$%&ed with.

- WL

EDIT: Related story here. I hope these kids did some damage to the "employees."

EDIT 2: Company website.

EDIT 3: Here's the "Enrollment Agreement" for Tranquility Bay. I was wrong, being shot would be too merciful for these things. They need every bone in their bodies broken, starting with the fingers.

EDIT 4: Last edit, since this #$%& is making me nauseous. Here is a website done by "survivors" of this stuff. Jesus #$%&ing Christ, where's Goldfish when you need him? This #$%& can't be legal...

I'm speechless. - WarBlade - 06-30-2003

This is actually legal in the states? :blink:

A couple of points of idle curiousity . . .
1.) The person running that facility was optimistic about tapping into the British market . . . Is he completely out of his ____ing mind?

2.) There was also a claim that the 'treatment' had a high success rate with no resulting mental illness, a complete counter to mentions of post traumatic stress symptoms by former 'patients'. The notion that such a severe treament has no negative side effects was something I found absolutely laughable. :blink:

I'm speechless. - TaiDaishar - 06-30-2003

I can't believe it... I just read 3/4 of the article (including part 2) and I just can't believe it!

The rage I feel is so big that is only equal to the sense of helplessness I feel.

How can such a thing even exist! And the idiotic perants who actually send them there, I want to break the perants' (And that idiot Kay's) bones, one by one starting from the fingers going all the way to the limbs, breaking them again and again and again never letting them heal.

This thing is against the law, it bypass the most basic human rights, reminds me of the Ghettos in World War 2...

I'm speechless. - Brista - 06-30-2003

Things can be pretty grim in Britain too. I know people who the institutions have helped a lot and people who have been mentally crippled for life by them

Warlocke, what happened to you was deeply unfair, I'm so sorry you went through all that

The good thing is that you've come out of it so strong

All the best

Simon

I'm speechless. - Count Duckula - 07-01-2003

One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, anyone?

I'm speechless. - Guest - 07-01-2003

There are some really bad kids out there who need set straight.

Of course most times their parents cold care less and chances are they couldnt afford this island prison.

When I was in grade school there were 2 kids who stood out for the trouble they caused. Sure many of us did bad stuff, but these too just didnt get it. They were sociopaths, but they realeted to the world by causeing trouble, it was all they seemd to be able to deal though.

I never saw much of either after 8th grade.

One has 3 kids, 2 are from him cheating on his wife. Hes been in jail twice(nothing violent) and he bankrupted his parents(I know the details because I know his grandmom.)

The other one I saw on the news 2 years ago. He was caught after a bank robbery. During the get away they accidently killed someone with the car.



These 2 guys would have been better off on the island or what ever for awhile. Everyone could see the problems coming when they were little kids. Its kind of sad in both cases because both were actually nice in those rare time they they had to sit down and talk.

I'm speechless. - WarBlade - 07-01-2003

I don't think anyone's questioning the necessity for detecting problems early and doing something about it. What people object to is the extremity of the methods employed in this case to achieve that rehabilitation. Quite often a child will get into those mental states from deficiencies in their home life and all this institution is doing is torturing out of them what their life at that point had tortured into them.

I'm speechless. - Guest - 07-01-2003

Its not simple. There are many circumstances and many different responses. Your perspective is very skewed in this case. You were mistreated after having done nothing wrong. That biases you.

There are cases when less than pleasant responses are needed.

I'm speechless. - Haider - 07-01-2003

Quote: There are some really bad kids out there who need set straight.

Yes, but not with this facist brainwash methods directly taken from 1984 or Brave New World. What use is it to "correct" a person if you make them to some kind of zombies (and that is really how most of the kids sounded).

I'm speechless. - DeeBye - 07-01-2003

Quote:There are cases when less than pleasant responses are needed.

Huh? Like dragging a kid off to a foreign island and subjecting him/her to brainwashing and physical torture?

You are obviously not a parent. I want to hug my son right now after reading that article.

There is no way in hell this sort of thing is ever "needed".

"Less than pleasant"? WTF?? Are you insane? If even 10% of this story is accurate, the place these kids are being sent to is a hellhole. It's one step shy of a concentration camp.

My first thought when reading the article is that it's an easy way out for rich parents with unruly teens. "Pay us $40k and we'll fix that screwed-up kid you tried to raise. You won't see or hear from him/her for a long time, I promise".


Quote:One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, anyone?

More like Cool Hand Luke, but with children. Let's hope it doesn't end up the same way.

-DeeBye

I'm speechless. - Nicodemus Phaulkon - 07-01-2003

I'm sickened.

I'm speechless. - Xiuhcoatl - 07-01-2003

…who need to be removed from the contributing gene pool.

Most children are not born into this world as sociopaths, psychotics, or whatever evil creatures society makes them out to be. Sure, they might possess a genetic disposition to develop a bi-polar condition, schizophrenia, ADD or some other physiological disorder, but that alone does not make children monsters. Trauma and horrible parenting does. Treating the symptoms of a disease (some cases of bad parenting falls into this description) rather than the problems is folly. Allowing irresponsible and negligent parents to continue breeding should be criminal.

How does being treated as less than human encourage a child to “want” to fit into human society? Even convicted criminals serving prison time are treated with more dignity and humanely than the children in Wwasp run institutions. Yet, the children sent to places like Tranquility were not given their day in court; their society, their government failed to grant them the same rights they grant criminals. I have no doubt that the misguided parents who send their children to places like Tranquility provided an inadequate and abusive home environment for their “problem child”. The same dysfunctional parents who spawn “unmanageable” children are given absolute power over the most crucial period of their lives. Is it not enough that these children were deprived of the nurturing foundation and proper parental support and guidance they need for growth and development? Now substitute “abuse” and “fear” for “love” and “trust” and commit the worst offense possible on a human being: destroy the spirit. Is there hope for a child whose spirit has been broken of living a full life? Are we to expect the offspring of such parents to become well-adjusted members of society?

“But most students are already emotionally damaged when they arrive, with a quarter on medication for bi-polar, oppositional defiance, or attention-deficit disorders.”

I wonder how many of those children on prescription drugs really need them. I wonder how many of those children need them because of environmental factors such as traumatic home life and abusive parents. Mental disorders arise from a mixture of influences — heredity, biology and environment. If heredity and biology can’t be altered, then shouldn’t environment be addressed? The same people who condemn illicit drug use are asking doctors to prescribe drugs to their children. Insurance will cover most of the costs, so let’s just treat the symptoms and ignore the problem, right?

A society that stands by such parents and encourages them to ship their unruly and unmanageable children to a desolate island concentration camp is sick. A responsible member of society would rather question why a child behaves the way s/he does and take a look at the parents and “home” environment. It is no wonder that extreme “treatment” centers such as Tranquility are tolerated and even welcomed in societies around the globe. After all, broken and dysfunctional families and children born into single parent homes or orphaned/abandoned is becoming more the acceptable standard rather than the exception.

Xi

I'm speechless. - goldfish - 07-01-2003

I haven't read the case law on this (I may do that later, if I get some time) but it wouldn't surprise me at all if it was allowed by courts. There is a large gray area of parental control, and the ability to delegate that -- it comes up in other instances, such as "deprogrammers" who kidnap Moonies and such (and who, to be fair, generally claim that they are only undoing an original kidnapping or brainwashing).

One thing I have to point out though -- both you and Tai have now posted that the people running these camps deserve physical violence and/or death. BAD IDEA.

I suspect that you are doing this as hyperbole or rhetoric. It is still a VERY BAD IDEA. Let me discuss why I think it's a bad idea. First, though, a disclaimer: This discussion is intended as theoretical discussion of possible consequences of making death threats on an online bulletin board. I am NOT giving legal advice here and there is no attorney-client relationship. I may not be licensed to practice in any particular state. DO NOT TAKE THIS AS LEGAL ADVICE.

Now, why not to make death threats on bulletin boards.

First, there is the chance (very real, it seems) that someone affiliated with these camps will be killed or assaulted. In that instance, you have just put yourself on the suspect list. Congratulations.

Second, there is a chance that an impressionable, not-too-bright person will read this, and decide that vigilantism is in order, and go start breaking bones as you have suggested. This could lead to you being implicated for those crimes; it could potentially lead to Bolty being implicated.

Third, depending on local laws, you could be sued for making threats.

Fourth, you might be liable under conspiracy statutes.

And those are just the possible consequences that come to mind with 30 seconds of thinking it over. B)

And don't cry free speech to me, because there are well-known exceptions for "fighting words", and words intended to cause harm, and words intended to produce criminal acts.

So, I can sympathize with the kids who suffer in these camps. I'm not sure that they are illegal, and don't have the time right now to check (sorry, work). And I strongly recommend that no one make death threats or statements which could be read as death threats on these boards.

I'm speechless. - Occhidiangela - 07-01-2003

In the old days, it was "send the boy to Military School." It appears as though there is another choice, and since it is outside of US borders, US Statutes don't apply. Costa Rica also has such a school, and it has been in the news down here in Texas for reasons that I can't remember at the moment.

The parents in question would rather spend the 40,000 and send the kid away than invest

The Time and Effort

And some dough to work through the problems like a family. Gee, nice parenting. That aint tough love, it is tough neglect. At least they have the money to do whatever it is without the kid starving. How are poor people supposed to handle their problems? Hmmmm, maybe with love and parenting? And no money for meds? Trouble on that front as well, it seems.

One of the smartest guys I met at university was a guy who had been to 4 years of "Military School" and who then ended up in our place. He was in trouble from day one, built a small wall around himself and socialized infrequently, and while quite intelligent, was socially inept enough to make few friends.

He got tossed in our third year: discipline and behaviour problems galore.

I'll be he's worth millions today. He read the WSJ cover to cover every day. He took the hard classes and made A's and B's. (This was back in the 1970's.) He had a remarkable memory. I suspect that he invested in the 80's and made a fortune. He was socially inept, not stupid.

I wonder, though, just what his kids turned out like.

I'm speechless. - TaiDaishar - 07-01-2003

goldfish,Jul 1 2003, 04:27 PM Wrote:One thing I have to point out though -- both you and Tai have now posted that the people running these camps deserve physical violence and/or death.  BAD IDEA.
Notice that I pointed these methods toward the perants who actually send their kids to this kind of places and the bosses of this camps.

Another thing is that you need to understand these comments were due to emotional overload that is clearly shown by both posts, none of us (I hope) is really going to do such a thing (although picturing it is quite nice...).

I do understand your points about legal issues and people who cannot think that are reading this posts but I find it unnecessary to discuss such things about the legal consequences of the above "suggestions"...

I'm speechless. - Occhidiangela - 07-01-2003

More thoughts:

1. $40,000 a year can sustain a family of three in a modest style here in South Texas.

2.
Quote:"Messy divorce and remarriage are the norm among these parents. // This culture then creates its own logic - for once adolescence is criminalised, Tranquility becomes the obvious solution."

Interesting thought, but the split home common theme did not surprise me.

3.
Quote:"If my mom hadn't sent me here I would have died."  Might have died?  Interesting concept." 

Just like "You'll put someone's eye out with that!"

Quote:"That without Tranquility they would be dead is an article of faith among all the students."

Hmmm, does Communion and Confirmation come with that Faith? :P

4.
Quote:"Tranquility showed me that I'd have been a minimum wager,' Nick says. 'This place saved my life."  'I'd probably be living with a drug dealer or something awful like that,' speculates a girl. 'And going nowhere. Not being successful."

For folks who can afford 40,000 per year to send a kid to Tranquility base, successful doubtless means rich. Sigh, I wonder at why some people have kids in the first place.


5.
Quote:"You have to understand,' a former student, who turned 18 and walked out, tries to explain. 'The staff are constantly trying to work out what you are thinking about and constantly telling you what to think about, and then constantly checking to see if you are thinking about it. And if you're not, and they know you're not, you might as well be dead."


Quote:6.  Challenger family's meeting is the first I attend, and has the appearance of group therapy.  The girls sit in a circle on the floor, with an hour to stand up and 'share', or offer 'feedback'.

"No one else is thinking about you, why do you think anyone notices you?"  "Don't you get it? The purpose of being here, and getting consequences, is to teach you how to pick yourself up. If you don't mess up, you go home."

Gee, nice empathetic peers, just like in high school back home, except here it is face to face, not behind the back gossip.

7.
Quote:'So I just wanted to make sure,' he says, with biting diplomacy, 'that there were no other "misunderstandings" that need to be cleared up.'  His family rep stares hard at him hard, smarting. Defeat seems inescapable. The silence lengthens, and her eyes narrow. 
'You know what? I'm going to review your exit plan. It will have to go on hold.' 

'Miss! Miss, no!' He is aghast, panic-stricken. 'You can't mean that? Why are you punishing me?'

She studies him. 'I am not punishing you. You just gave me the idea. You have punished yourself.'

Hey, it's for profit, so it is obvious that a longer term must be needed, eh?

8. And just like in kindergarden . . .
Quote:"Points and privileges are awarded to students who tell on each other." 

Preparation for the New Corporate America? Foir what it's worth, West Point does the same thing, more or less, with its honor concept: Don't lie chear or steal, and don't tolerate anyone who does. If you condone it, you are tossed out as well.

9. THE KICKER!!!

Quote:" . . .parents have a financial incentive to believe and proselytise. For every new customer they can recruit, a month's fees for their own child are waived."

10.
Quote:The US legal system has more or less agreed that they are right. In a crucial 1998 test case, a Californian court ruled that a parent had the legal right to send a child to Tranquility. Parental choice was sacrosanct.  What happens inside Tranquility would be illegal on British soil, but the facility falls under Jamaican jurisdiction and parents here are as free as Americans to send their children where they like. A spokesman for the Children's Legal Centre in the UK confirmed, 'I can't see anything in the law that would stop a British parent from sending their child there. It is appalling, but it is down to the Jamaican government.'

Well, the parents will reap what they sow when the kids pay them back by sending them to Tranquility for their rest home experience in a few year's time. :D

11.
Quote:Four overseas Wwasp facilities have been closed down by local authorities in the past seven years.  The latest occurred just last month, in Costa Rica, following claims of physical abuse and squalor by an ex-manager.  But providing Tranquility meets Jamaican sanitation standards, it remains untroubled by government attention.

Yep, Jamaican sanitation standards are good enough for anyone, right? Ah, Costa Rica, that is what I heard on the news the other day.

12.
Quote:Once a year, Tranquility Bay has a Fun Day.

Can they spare it?

Is it any accident that this organization is called WWASP? You'd think they'd get why that is a screaming red flag . . .

I'm speechless. - channel1 - 07-01-2003

It's too bad that it isn't as hard to HAVE kids as it is to RAISE them. A lot of these social problems wouldn't exist.

As it is, almost any fool can have kids, and usually does. Being financially successful doesn't automatically make you a good parent. Spending too much time at one's high-paying job, and partaking of the personal luxuries and perks that such a job can offer can make you a bad parent. That is assuming that an absent parent is a bad parent.

Some kids will be born with physical problems that will cause problems. Fetal Alcohol Syndrome (FAS) typically results in behavioral problems. There are a number of other conditions that can result in effects that will cause a child to have problems while they are growing up.

BUT, I've seen cases where parents refuse to accept responsibility for the child's problems, and desperately seek a diagnosis for their child that absolves them of responsibility for their child's problems. From what I've seen, I believe most of these diagnosis to be BS.

But, gawd help you if you ever suggest that someone is a "Bad Parent". There aren't many things that will get someone more fired up than to suggest that their child's problems are a result of their upbringing.

As long as parents are allowed to believe that the most probably reason for their child's discipline problems are not a result of bad upbringing, opportunistic SOB's like THIS will continue to rip people off with their abusive and amateurish attempts at behavior modification. These places seem to have developed their techniques from descriptions of tactics used by the Japanese in WWII and the North Vietnamese in their POW camps. Before someone tells be that I'm blowing smoke outta my butt, I should say that I used to work in a hospital/residence for the mentally retarded, and did have occasion to carry out behavior mod. programs that were developed by real doctors. There is no resemblance to the description of what happens in these penal colonies -er- "Schools".

-rcv-

I'm speechless. - pakman - 07-01-2003

Do they make them go into Room 101 too??? :P

I'm speechless. - WarLocke - 07-01-2003

Replies.

Quote:Brista
Warlocke, what happened to you was deeply unfair, I'm so sorry you went through all that

Thanks. I felt so betrayed afterward, I pretty much refused to speak to Dad for nearly a month. I carried a grudge for a bit longer. After learning of this, I'm just glad that was all I was subjected to. I have no doubt I could weather something like Tranquility Bay now (chemical drugging excepted), but when I was 15? I don't know...

Quote:Ghostiger
There are some really bad kids out there who need set straight.

It's been my experience that you're pretty much a borderline troll. Still, I'll reply to this, and I'm not meaning this in any way as a flame.

Yes, there are bad kids out there. Ones that don't respond to traditional methods, who need "tough love". Regardless, they still don't deserve to be carted off somewhere to be brainwashed. Noone does. What these people are doing is worse than killing the children; they're stripping them of their identities. Noone deserves that, not even the most horrible criminals.

Quote:Ghostiger
Its not simple. There are many circumstances and many different responses. Your perspective is very skewed in this case. You were mistreated after having done nothing wrong. That biases you.

Unless I'm reading this wrong, you meant me. There seems to be alot of WL/WB confusion going around lately. ;)

Quote:DeeBye
I want to hug my son right now after reading that article.

As soon as I finish this post, I'm emailing my father a link to that article and thanking him for only sending me to Vanderbilt.

Quote:goldfish
(Snip legal stuff)

Thanks for the legal info, as depressing as it is.

As for my choice of words, it was rhetoric. When I started this thread I had just finished reading a 120+ post thread on Something Awful relating to this. It made me so sick I felt I had to do something, and raging impotently at the keyboard was pretty much the extent of my options. That probably doesn't absolve me of suspicion if someone does take some sort of action, but meh.

Some days I think it would be better if someone hit the Big Red Button, so the cockroaches could inherit the earth.

- WL

I'm speechless. - Occhidiangela - 07-01-2003

(Reply to rcv)

Car don't work? Go to a mechanic, have him sort it out.

Penis don't work? See the doc, buy some Viagra.

Kid screwed up? Hire someone else to unscrew him.

Unhappy? Hire a shrink. If you pay him enough, he will pretend to care about you.

Classic treatment of symptom versus root cause (such as changing oil periodically) approach to a variety of life's little challenges.

Sad, but true.

Your remark in re real behaviour mod versus the 'reprogramming' issue strikes a chord. :)