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Synergies. - Roland - 07-11-2003
Single-tree, or cross tree? Pretty self-explanatory, but I'll clarify.
Do people feel it would be better to leave all synergistically linked skills within the same tree (i.e. Fire skills boosting Fire skills for the Sorceress), or to branch out across the trees (Offensive Auras boosting Defensive Auras on the Paladin)?
And, in either case, is it generally more advised to keep the synergies simpatico, or to force branching out? I.e. would it make more sense to give Sacrifice a bonus from Fanaticism, or Prayer? Make Valkyrie boosted by Critical Strike, or Dodge? Things like that. In other words, keeping synergies AWAY from the cookie-cutter styles, and instead generally pairing them with lesser-used skills, in order to strengthen the weak and promote diversity? Keep in mind that the latter endeavor is not a sure-fire thing, as some restrictions (skill points, character plans, as well as actual ability to mod - which has yet to be determined, being that this is only a beta) prevent said lesser-used skills and/or weaker skills from ever being attractive and/or viable.
I'm mostly curious for my own (modding) purposes, but hearing WarBlade's rants on the Paladin's synergy woes convinced me to query the rest of the Lounge on the matter. Please do post your thoughts, and why you have them. The more information, the better, even if it leads to debate. :)
Synergies. - Arutha - 07-11-2003
Like Warblade, I've had the occasion to give some of my ideas on the matter elsewhere.
But, those were specifics, so here are my general thoughts about synergies.
The key point is that, like any other aspect of the game, they're part of a whole. Synergies imo cannot be treated independantly from the rest of the game.
So the first thing to consider is: what do you want the final product to be like?
What follows is my answer to that question.
- I don't care about PvP, so that aspect isn't a concern for me.
- For a mod, I'm mainly concerned about single-player, so MP aspects like skill combinations with other partied players and trading amongst players are not part of the equation.
"Balance" is for me the most important aspect of the game. It's the key to its replayability. I don't view Diablo as a kind of riddle game where you have to find the ultimate character build. I want most builds to be equivalent in their ability to beat the game, which makes trying them all a renewed experience every time.
But with 7 character classes and 210 skills, with 20 ranks per skill, balancing the game is hard enough. That's why I started with saying that single-player (and thus PvM) are my concerns: that's scaling down the dfficulty of balancing the game by one factor.
Now, what kind of builds do I want to see "balanced"?
Builds with 2-4 skills maxed.
Again, if a character with slvl 2 in every single skill isn't competitive in Hell mode, I don't care about that.
I'm also not concerned with builds which are "flawed": if a player chooses purely defensive skills only, I'll turn a deaf ear to his complaining about not killing monsters fast enough.
So, I want all kinds of "reasonnable" builds relying on several maxed skills to be equally challenging. No "cookie-cutters", no "perfect answers".
I also want them balanced throughout the game.
So monsters stats and items available are part of the equation.
Character progression is also a key factor: if say, a character can be at lvl 50 still in normal act 5, or anywhere in nightmare, or starting hell mode, then the job of balancing the skills is going to be a lot harder.
So I'd put hard caps on the level a character can be at a given location in the game.
With those goals in mind, there are two ways of using "synergies":
1- The "easy" way:
Pre-determine a certain number of different builds for each character class, and use the synergies to make the skills used in those builds to reinforce one another.
That way, synergies are used to smooth the character's "power" over the game.
My problem with that solution is that it restricts a lot the number of "viable" builds. So...
2- The "hard" way:
Allow a lot more equally "viable" builds.
That implies making each skill equally interesting on its own.
Use synergies to add more effects (or reinforce secondary effects) to the skills, not to boost their main effect.
Such a solution is a lot harder to balance, especially for direct damage skills: Firebolt can be maxed by level 20. How to avoid making it overpowered in normal mode and underpowered in Hell?
There are solutions to that problem, but I don't know if they can be modded in (for instance, use the character level in the damage output formula, or base damage on the orb/staff used, or only allow skill points to be invested in the same skill every three levels, etc...).
Example: The Hydra Sorc
- Under the "easy" way, it could be decided that a Hydra Sorc is based on Warmth, Fire Mastery, Firebolt, and Hydra.
Fire mastery and Firebolt would give a damage bonus to Hydra.
Warmth would reduce the mana cost and make them last longer.
- Under the "hard" way, it could be decided that hydras use whatever skill was selected on the left button at the time they were cast. So you could have your hydras spew forth firebolts, or fireballs, or glacial spikes, or chain lightning, etc... The hydra skill itself would determine how long each hydra lasts, and how many hydras can be up at the same time, while the Firebolt / Fireball / etc.. level would be used to determine the spell level used by the Hydras (1/3 or 1/2 for instance).
Synergies. - WarBlade - 07-11-2003
Roland,Jul 11 2003, 10:37 PM Wrote:Do people feel it would be better to leave all synergistically linked skills within the same tree (i.e. Fire skills boosting Fire skills for the Sorceress),Well with some classes the single tree is a given. There are situations where some cross-tree pairing should be considered invalid before you even begin.
Quote:or to branch out across the trees (Offensive Auras boosting Defensive Auras on the Paladin)?
Oh man. :( You just informed me that when your email comes through I'm going to be doing some heavy duty explaining. In spite of my Paladin rant I'll say that Blizzard did a pretty good job of hammering out something almost logical in the Paladin synergies. Unfortunately the building block on which the Paladin synergy system is based has a nasty pitfall or two that messes up the potential of the Paladin synergies quite significantly.
It's getting late and I'll leave the lengthy explanation until tomorrow when I can focus better . . . Once I get you to see my point of view though, you'll come to realize that you have a much lower number of synergies to work out . . . or roughly the number you are thinking of and some possibly complicated little tweaks to all auras except, Sanctuary, Conviction, Holy Shock, Holy Fire, Holy Freeze and Redemption.
You can take the easy road or the hard road. The easy road will also keep the Barbarian and others simple, while the hard road might have you tearing your hair out over Shadow Warrior.
Quote:And, in either case, is it generally more advised to keep the synergies simpatico, or to force branching out?
Varies by character. Varies by skill effect. What you are really concerned about is keeping a comparable number of controlled damage curves (or similar) happening between the different classes while simultaneously avoiding the worst exponential damage ramps (as well as other odds and sods like the overdone Duration tinkering of the three duration-supportive Warcries).
Quote:I.e. would it make more sense to give Sacrifice a bonus from Fanaticism, or Prayer?
Oh jeez.
Oh man.
Y'breakin' ma balls Roland. (explanation extends)
Ack! There's also a high/low sympathy to consider in a case where an extreme low skill is concerned. Prayer won't work, because with Prayer reinforcing Sacrifice you have a 'synergized' skill from cLvl 3 (excluding the first quest reward skill point), not to mention a potentially steep damage scale very early, which ultimately hits critical mass at cLvl thirty something (excluding direct support Aura). That's way too soon and practically stomps all over one of the possible foundation rules of synergy implementation: Synergies exist to scale a skill's function deep into Hell Level. A synergy like that is a freaky jump start with questionable long term persistance.
Fanaticism reinforcing Sacrifice is nutty from an aesthetic standpoint, but there's actually a kind of weird logic to using that one from a location standpoint as a cLvl 30 skill provided that a second synergy emerges somewhere else (in this one particular case) . . . and whaddayaknow? 1.10 has that and even places the alternate skill as the dominant partner of two synergy skills. ;)
And dammit! Why'd my rum just dry out? :(
Quote:Make Valkyrie boosted by Critical Strike, or Dodge? Things like that. In other words, keeping synergies AWAY from the cookie-cutter styles, and instead generally pairing them with lesser-used skills, in order to strengthen the weak and promote diversity?
*breaths a sigh of relief* :unsure:
Quote:Keep in mind that the latter endeavor is not a sure-fire thing, as some restrictions (skill points, character plans, as well as actual ability to mod - which has yet to be determined, being that this is only a beta) prevent said lesser-used skills and/or weaker skills from ever being attractive and/or viable.
There is no spoon.
Synergies. - kandrathe - 07-11-2003
Adding mine to the other voices; You want to avoid the extremes of nonsensical skill allocation, while also not forcing all characters down narrow paths.
It reminds me of the problems of balance in classic RPG's. The Fighter-Mage really was a less than exceptional fighter (90%), with the ability to add a smattering of low level magic spells. A level 20 Mage would be tossing around high level (7-8) spells, while the level 20 Fighter Mage was still learning level 3 spells.
To me; each tree already represents a focal point of study for that character. One may then choose 1, 2 or 3 areas of study. Should they focus on all 3 equally, then they must realize they will not be as powerful as one who chooses a major. It seems the synergies now allow for further specialization within each tree. Typically in the realms of RPG magical studies one does not seek skills in more than a few of these skills; Conjuror (sympathetic magic), a Summoner (of spiritual forces), a Necromancer (animating the dead), Enchanter (Charmer, Mentalist), Illusionist, or Alchmist. Usually one.
For instance, for the necro to become a Golem master he must devote points into Clay, Blood, Iron, Fire, Golem Mastery, and Skeleton Mastery -- that to me is far too broad to accomplish. But say one dedicated Golem Master were to put nearly all their points into those 6 skills, then I would think those Golems had better be able to help the necro as much as a sorceress devoting 80 points into Fire skills. Curses are like traps, or warcries, a useful addition to the kit, but not neccesary to maximize all of them.
Same with the Druid summons, if you focus on summoning wolves, and bear then they should be pretty good offensively, and very good as tanks. I like what Blizzard did with the Druid elemental tree, as it seems well thought out. In the shape shifting tree, I think "Fire Claws" really needs to work more like "Vengeance" giving the Druid the capability to fight Fire Immunes. Other than that, it should be pretty straght forward to focus on being a werewolf or a werebear
With the sorceress and amazon, the hard part will be to have synergies that do not get their skills exceptionally overpowered. Will a trimentalist be powerful enough to navigate the hardest parts of the game?
The poor Paladin and Baba are the odd ducks out because their tree themes are not mutually exclusive. It does not make sense for him to only focus on one or even two trees.
Also, the Assassins and barbarian skills mostly likely need to be spread across at least two trees, so for these two at least cross tree synergies seem neccesary. Traps and Warcries would not neccesarily need any cross tree synergies. But, for warcries, you could adopt the Eastern tradition of a vocal "Chi" to focus ones mental energies upon their physical tasks.
In doing an task like this I always find it is easiest to start at the end point, then work backwards. Start with high level characters, say all level 70. Make sure they are balanced at that point, and then work them backwards to zero skills.
Synergies. - Roland - 07-12-2003
This is ONLY the beta, and I'm still teaching myself how to CREATE synergies. Keep in mind that my last mod was a WIP spanning several YEARS. Keep in mind that before I embarked on a modding endeavor, I had been in Diablo II since the Closed Beta. What does all that add up to?
1) I didn't jump into modding right away. I was WELL aware of every little nook and cranny of D2, from the good to the bad, thereby enabling me to guage what needed fixing, and how.
2) This is not a one-stop-shop. This project is going to be big, just like the last one - one I'm going to take my time on, even if I have to undo and redo stuff ten times over.
3) I still have to actually play through the game at least a bit, to get a feel for the new D2. Coming out with a perfect, or even near-perfect, product won't be for probably close to another year.
4) Given all the new stuff that has changed, I have a LOT of learning ahead of me, but also a lot more options.
My point in posing these questions, in starting this topic, was to get a general consensus as to where to go. I know D2 is not a once-size-fits all. I've been modding for several years, which anyone who knows me knows well about. ;) I don't settle for half-assed fixes or big band-aids that just paper over the real issues. I like to get right in and solve the problem at its source. I'm not looking to see "Oh, all characters should have single tree synergies", or "They all should have their synergies spread out as much as possible". I'm looking to see where people think each best fits, in general, for each character class. I'm looking to hear general ideas on what you'd expect from synergies (WarBlade briefly touched upon this, but not nearly enough to satsify me ;)).
Right now, I have just learned a strong breakthrough into how to make Synergies. As a test, I gave Prayer a 10% healing bonus from each BASE slvl of Holy Bolt and Redemption invested, while keeping the original healing gain per slvl of Prayer. What this means is that skill point investment into Holy Bolt and Redemption will allow for a boost to Prayer's healing, but +skills in those areas will NOT. Boosting Prayer, by skill point investment OR +skills will indeed boost the healing, exponentially when you factor in HB + Red. Keep in mind this was ONLY a test to see how synergies were made, within the files. Having learned a great deal, I can now customize this any way I see fit. :) I've started on the road to salvation. ;)
Getting back to some of the original questions / points I raised in my original post, what is a good GENERAL layout for skill / synergy matchup? Is it better to enhance skills that ALREADY are paired together, or is it better to open up more options, even if those new options are for lesser-strengthed skills? Let's take an example. We all know that a Barbarian who invests in Iron Skin will probably invest in Shout, and vice versa. Does it then make sense to make these two skills synergistic to one another? I.e. Shout boosts IS, and IS boosts Shout? Provided, of course, that they are balanced. Or would it be more advisably to, say, boost Iron Skin with Natural Resistance? Or with Concentrate? Things like that. Is it advisable to keep a general theme, to stick skills that work together into the synergy pool, or to force branching out? It's a very hard road to tread, especially when balance is your number one focus (like it is for me), but I'd like to hear people's thoughts.
An Amazon who focuses in the Spear side of the tree is not likely to get much use out of the Javelin side, and vice versa, at least the way it is set up now. Due to the fact that Javelins allow you to wear a shield, combined with the fact that they are a ranged attack, it makes much more sense to utilize them and their corresponding skills over the Spear side. But, what if Spear skills boosted Javelin skills, and vica versa? What if investing in Fend gave you more power to Lightning Fury? What if boosting Plague Javelin gave you more power to Lightning Strike? It doesn't make much "sense", obviously, at least in terms of a common theme. But it DOES allow people to branch out, does it not? Obviously, there's a fine line between giving new options, and stretching a character's development too thin. But that's not a line I'm concerned with just yet. That line can be altered in other ways, via skills as well as items, monsters, etc. It's not something I need to be concerned with yet, and it's not something I want you to be concerned with in your replies. Stick to the base idea, and give me your thoughts.
Ultimately, I want to know people's thoughts and feelings regarding synergies. Simple as that. Give me your ideas, give me examples, tell me whatever you can and will about it. The more information I gather, the better off I can plan and develop.
Synergies. - Dagni - 07-12-2003
Personally, more than anything else, I'd like any set of similar skills that cannot be used together to give synergies to each other. Examples include Might/Conc/Fanat, BoS/Fade, all necro Golems, Werewolf/Werebear, or Oak Sage/HoW/Spirit of Barbs.
- Dagni
Synergies. - Roland - 07-12-2003
That's almost exactly the plan I've just whipped up for synergies. It follows closely with that theme, but also with the Druid's Summoning theme - no wasted skill points. Interconnected skills boost one another (NOT equally), so as to lend aid to each other. Higher up skills get the smallest boost, but also gain that boost immediately, since it is dependent upon their pre-requisites. Lower skills, however, get larger boosts, but do not see them until much later on, since their boosts are dependent on investment into higher skills - skills the character won't have yet.
I'll use the Paladin as an example:
- Prayer - Cleansing, Meditation
Cleansing - Prayer, Meditation
Meditation - Prayer, Cleansing
Defiance - Vigor, Redemption
Vigor - Defiance, Redemption
Redemption - Defiance, Vigor
Resist Fire - Resist Cold, Resist Lightning, Salvation
Resist Cold - Resist Fire, Resist Lightning, Salvation
Resist Lightning - Resist Fire, Resist Cold, Salvation
Salvation - Resist Fire, Resist Cold, Resist Lightning
Might - Blessed Aim, Concentration, Fanaticism
Blessed Aim - Might, Concentration, Fanaticism
Concentration - Might, Blessed Aim, Fanatacism
Fanaticism - Might, Blessed Aim, Concentration
Holy Fire - Holy Freeze, Holy Shock
Holy Freeze - Holy Fire, Holy Shock
Holy Shock - Holy Fire, Holy Freeze
Thorns - Sanctuary, Conviction
Sanctuary - Thorns, Conviction
Conviction - Thorns, Sanctuary
Sacrifice - Zeal, Vengeance, Conversion
Zeal - Sacrifice, Vengeance, Conversion
Vengeance - Sacrifice, Zeal, Conversion
Conversion - Sacrifice, Zeal, Vengeance
Holy Bolt - Blessed Hammer, Fist of the Heavens
Blessed Hammer - Holy Bolt, Fist of the Heavens
Fist of the Heavens - Holy Bolt, Blessed Hammer
Smite - Charge, Holy Shield
Charge - Smite, Holy Shield
Holy Shield - Smite, Charge<>
[st]
Now, obviously this isn't perfect. It doesn't make much sense for a Chargeadin to be pumping Smite, and even less so for Holy Shield. However, it does ensure, for example, that those who pump Holy Shield and Smite get double the benefits, since that is their main focus. It keeps pre-requisite points from ever being wasted, while at the same time boosting skills, giving more viability to them all. It's not perfect, as I said, but it's at least a solid starting point, IMO. A Chargeadin doesn't need to pump Smite OR Holy Shield to be effective, so long as he pumps Charge and his main offensive Aura. However, he does get a small boost from his initial point in Smite, as well as boosts to his main offensive aura from the pre-requisites (if any), as well as giving him more choice as to which aura to choose.
A few notes:
1) Synergies can be set to ONLY give their bonus for the BASE skill level, or for the entire skill level. What this means is that Prayer at slvl 5 + 5, with slvl 1 + 5 Cleansing and Meditation, can either be equivalent to slvl 10 Prayer + slvl 5 synergy bonus from Cleansing / Meditation, OR it can be equivalent to slvl 10 Prayer with slvl 1 synergy bonus from Cleansing / Meditation. A HUGE difference, that places more emphasis on skill point placement and specialization than on those fortunate enough to horde +skills items.
2) Skill level caps, i.e. 20 points max investment, are adjustable very easily now. In other words, a modder can set the maximum base slvl to 5, or 50 (unknown if there is a cap, but for the purposes of demonstration you get the idea). This, in conjunction with other factors, can help to balance skills and skill points. Of course, this is only good for modders, since Blizzard has absolutely no use for this - they don't care about balance nearly as much as most of us here do. ;)
3) While most of the information I am gathering is going to be put to modding use, typically I'd like to keep ideas within the realm of NON-modded D2. I.e. pretend that the skill cap is always going to be 20, etc. This will make it much easier to lay down some base ground rules, and also make it easier to pass on any information to Blizzard should they pull their heads out of the sand for a second or two. ;)
Please tell me what you all think. The plan is very rough, very untested, and filled with holes, but that is ok. I want people to find those holes, and pick them apart. Find out where something doesn't fit right, where something is totally broken, where something needs improvement, etc. The best way to work on synergies is to have one or two common baselines, and work from there. If you don't have a common goal, you get the mess that Blizzard has handed us - and that is not surprising. Synergies add more utter headache to this game than you could possibly imagine (unless you're a modder ;)). :D However, it IS conquerable. It just takes a GREAT deal of time and effort. Which I am willing to put in, at least for now. ;)
Let the discussion begin. :D
Synergies. - Arutha - 07-12-2003
What kind of bonus can be provided by synergies?
For instance, if you decide on a synergy bonus to Vengeance from Zeal :
- Does it have to be a bonus to something Vengeance already does (+AR, +elemental damage based on physical damage, mana cost) ?
- Or can it be something different like +ias ?
Synergies. - Brista - 07-12-2003
Short answer: cross-tree
Longer: As a player I would hope to see some subtleties of skill synergy interaction. I think that the Druid elemental tree was probably the skilltab done first and in many ways suffers from a lack of a full appreciation of the range of possibilities
I'm just guessing that the Druid Elemental tree was first, but the deficiencies previously in that tree demanded some solution and skill synergies are actually, I think, a pretty elegant fix to the problem of how to give the Druid a skill that works by doing X amount of damage that is effective in Hell that don't overpower late Normal and Nightmare
But what they've given us is big Fire skill multiplies other big Fire skill OR big Cold skill multiplies other big Cold skill
For players needing to get a lot of bang out of their choice of skills in order to complete the game or feel satisfied with their character this basically steers you towards two builds:
1) big fire spell, supported by a sprinkling of minions and synergistic fire skills
or
2) big cold spell, supported by a sprinkling of minions and synergistic cold skills
That's a fairly limited amount of replayability
There's not even replayability in terms of developing a different fire skill next time round since you can certainly develop two or three fire skills that interest you and try them all out with the one build
Now the Barb skill synergies are better. Pairing off various combat skills with various war cries is quite interesting and will give rise to a number of different builds
So, for instance if you did the following pairings with the Sorc skills:
Energy shield - Chilling Armour
Enchant - Shiver Armour
Teleport - Frozen Armour
you give players planning builds much more food for thought
A more sophisticated variation might be to loop it around, eg:
Energy Shield boosts Chilling Armour
Chilling Armour boosts Teleport
Teleport boosts Frozen Armour
Frozen Armour boosts Enchant
Enchant boosts Energy Shield
I would suggest that you basically balance most skills without relying on damage bonus synergies, except for a very basic Druid Elemental and Nec Poison and Bone should require some sort of "Mastery" type investment so that they don't come into full bloom before level 50. Use the synergies to promote interesting new builds rather and to encourage the use of under-played skills
I suggest that in general you pair strong skills with weak ones and medium ones with medium ones
Also try to imagine playing the character - Berserk (sets defence to zero) and Shout (boosts defence) for instance is a rather odd pairing
Synergies. - Roland - 07-12-2003
Quote:- Does it have to be a bonus to something Vengeance already does (+AR, +elemental damage based on physical damage, mana cost) ?
One look at Cleansing or Meditation will tell you that it doesn't have to be something the skill already possesses. You could give Fanaticism LifeSteal by giving it a synergy bonus from, say, Conversion, or something like that. So, no, you don't HAVE to boost what it already has. It's just easier, and typically is the better, more logical choice. But not always. ;)
Quote:- Or can it be something different like +ias ?
Untested, but I don't see why it couldn't.
Synergies can provide any number of bonuses, but it is still VERY early into the beta to know all the answers. Plus, you have to keep in mind that any and all of this could potentially change by the time we get the official, final release, although it's not likely. As I dig further into the files, and practice more, I learn more, and thus am able to grasp a better understanding of how synergies work (and, for that matter, what works and what doesn't ;)). When WarBlade said Blizzard rolled two auras into one (Cleansing + Prayer, and Meditation + Prayer), he didn't know exactly how dead on he was. In the file, all it did was put in an entry to use Prayer's exact healing data along with whatever the aura normally gives. A bad move, IMO, as it makes Prayer even more worthless now, but so it goes. It's easily rectifiable, to a modder such as myself. ;)
I will say this:
Where once there was mainly one .txt file that governed most of what you could, and would, do concerning skills, there are now three .txt's. The original file (skills.txt) got a HUGE overhaul, and is now linked to two other files. This doesn't mean a thing to your average gamer, but to a modder, it's a dream come true. Swapping skill effects, or even creating whole new skills is a cinch now, whereas before it involved code-editing and was a headache. In addition, that overhaul to skills.txt turned what was once a fairly simple file into a boatload of Nordic runes and Egyptian heiroglyphics. :P So, it's taking a bit of time to decode all the new columns and entries, and just what role each plays. A mathematician / programmer would probably have a field day with all this. ;) And, someone well versed in math will have a hell of an easier time dealing with the new formulas, as it is very math-intensive. :D
My general plan is that, for skills with multiple bonuses, I'll seperate the synergy boosts to those bonuses among the different synergy skills. I.e. Fanatcisim may get an AR boost from Blessed Aim, a speed boost from Might, and a damage boost from Concentration. Might, OTOH, will most likely just get varying degrees of bonus damage based on the synergy skill. This will create greater diversity, and keep a leash on synergy-boosted skills, so that they don't become too out of hand. Of course, the greatest way to do that is to limit synergy bonuses to being based on the BASE skill level of the skills, rather than the total level - which is exactly my plan. :) See my notes in a previous post for more on that.
Synergies. - Arutha - 07-12-2003
I'm sure that what follows is totally obvious to an experienced player like you, but here it is anyway:
The first thing to do before working on synergies is to work on the skills themselves.
Some skills just have to be replaced.
If we take the barb for instance, I can see no reason (beyond Blizzard getting short on ideas) for Increased Stamina AND Increased Speed.
That should be one skill.
And the diminishing returns on it ought to go as well. Each skill must have a reason to be pumped for its own sake (synergies are just a cop out). Or leave the dimishing returns, but give it another effect (like an underpowered "avoid" ? 1% chance per slvl ?).
That one is obvious.
But there are many other changes that can be considered.
For instance masteries: critical strike chance, yes. But +AR and +damage? Come one, that's combat skills do. Give some other kind of bonus. Like ias and -req.
Or Shout / Concentrate / Iron skin.
For me, the defense kind should be the paladin, not the barb.
So I would remove at least one of those skills from the +defense business.
Like Iron skin: physical damage resistance instead of +def%.
etc...
Synergies. - Dagni - 07-12-2003
Quote:A few notes:I don't suppose that it is possible to give the bonus for the base skill level, plus individual +skills, but without + all skills included? I.e. with +2 to Bone Spear, +1 Poison/Bone on a wand, it would give +2 to Bone Spear for the purpose of synergies.
1) Synergies can be set to ONLY give their bonus for the BASE skill level, or for the entire skill level.
That's the way I wish Blizzard would have done it.
- Dagni
Synergies. - Roland - 07-12-2003
It's an all or nothing deal. Either you allow synergy bonuses for ALL +skill items, or for none of them. No inbetweens.
Synergies. - WarBlade - 07-12-2003
Hmm this is rather bizarre.
With all the posts on Blizzard Logic ⢠lately I would have thought people had better ideas. Let's say there's there's a scale of 1 - 10, 10 being highest, to determine logical solutions to skill synergies, and the 1.10 beta has the synergies giving a score at about 7.
These ideas I see here I'd rate at around 4. :(
Hooray! We now have Lurker Lounge Logic â¢!
:(
Where to begin . . .
If we look at Paladins we'll come to realize that the class in general is pretty much always based around a primary attack skill with a supporting Aura or what I sometimes refer to as the "two-skill combo". The Combat Skill (or unskilled attack) defines how the Paladin behaves in the game, while the Aura reinforces that behaviour and also may support the behaviour of others around him. Now if we look carefully at the synergies provided in the beta there is a clear indication of the following trend: Auras that stick to partied units do not carry synergies, with the marginal caveat being that Meditation and Cleansing are stacked with, but not enhanced by, Prayer. On the other hand Auras that grant 'Paladin-only' effects, such as Holy Shock and Sanctuary, are the ones that do carry synergy upgrades.
I'm a little disappointed that nobody seems to be questioning why the synergies have been built in this way.
There are two reasons that I can think of.
1.) If you take a Combat Skill and multiply it with another Combat Skill synergy, then factor in an Offensive Aura multiplied by another Aura synergy, you'll find you are creating a pretty wild exponential damage ramp in particular cases - namely the left side of the Offensive Aura Tree. And this is just on the Paladin himself.
2.) More importantly, if you have two Offensive Auras combining to form one super Aura, then apply the result to a Partied Amazon or Barbarian, you'll suddenly find your 'synergized' Aura is supporting all their skills meaning they get full benefit from all of their synergies and half of yours! :blink: Hello brutal character imbalance!
So, having spotted this problem what does a programmer do? We can look at the Paladin skill trees in fact and see what was done.
Physical Auras down the left of the Offensive Aura Tree: Nada. No Synergies.
Elemental Auras: Paladin source only, purely additive effects with the attack skill. Fairly controlled and really the only Auras carrying synergies.
Sanctuary: Same concept as the Elemental Auras, but the Physical Damage multiplier makes it sketchy. Avoids point #2 above, but still runs into point #1. This was played safe and left out of the Synergy options.
Thorns: Relative to monster damage. Played safe and avoids synergies.
Conviction: Runs defence and Resistances down to minimum values with 20 points invested, so can't really be upgraded without gaining more side effects. Besides, who'd want to invest in a synergy skill for it when it already reaches optimum results as it is?
Prayer, Meditation, Cleansing: Aura effects remain unamplified while two Auras become one. (a very interesting idea and not an unbalancing one either)
Redemption: The only 'safe' Paladin-only Defensive Aura and has been omitted. The diminishing returns chance to redeem should probably be maintained while the Life and Mana values could possibly be safely manipulated.
Remaining Defensives: Well would you want your Defiance or Vigor getting better use from a Barbarian than your own character? Call me selfish, but that idea kind of sucks to my way of thinking and I'm not surprised at all to see that no enhancements appear here (although I'll restate the Defiance/Holy Shield relationship as perhaps one of the most clever moves I've seen in this patch - think about it).
Note also, the three support Warcry synergies are duration-only and not actual support value reinforcements, there are no Necromancer Curse synergies, nothing on Druid Spirits etc. all for the reason that the power of any synergy applied to those kinds of skills is effectively multiplied by the number of nearby partied units and will doubtless bring in all manner of balancing issues. And on top of all that there is also a recurring trend to avoid placing synergies into skills I'd loosely describe as "passive upgrade types", see various Combat Masteries, Shadow Disaplines, Amazon Passive Magic etc. This is undoubtedly to keep some possible internal damage curves under control. ;)
Most of what was done there was the smart thing to do IMO. Clocking up Aura bonuses across the board is going to screw the balance far more than what we are experiencing in the beta at the moment, although it does vauguely point in one direction that could potentially open up some Paladin options.
Which is . . .
The game looks like it needs better identification of skill "generator" versus skill "recipient" (I could be wrong - such things might be there in a largely unusused form). The only case in point of all the skills in the game that would seem to have any such distinction would be the new Fanaticism. +X Damage for Paladin, +Y Damage for party. That strikes me as the one foundation that could bring a new era of Paladin enhancements by eliminating the party benefit problem, although much care will still be needed to keep the internal damage ramp under control and really I'd recommend such a device never be used for damage at all. More to the point, making Aura synergies into a Paladin-only affair will open up a means by which a Paladin can potentially supersede Greiz's little mercenaries without overbalancing whatever other party member who happens to be in the vicinity.
Now that I've carried on for far too long on a boring old, "No you can't go doing THAT" diatribe, I feel the sudden urge to indulge my more wishful impulses and float some rough ideas before concluding this horrible post.
IDEAS
Sanctuary: Attack Rating versus Undead anybody? Under the existing setup this skill is fairly safe to meddle with, provided damage multiplying isn't involved. Blessed Aim strikes me a decent aesthetic candidate for providing such a synergy to Sanctuary and will probably be on the way to Fanaticism in a build inclined to want Sanctuary, thus avoiding some of the pre-requisites headaches, not to mention giving back some AR lost with the Absence of Fanaticism.
Conversion: Many skill options could provide a modest 1 second per level Conversion duration.
Holy Shield: This is just begging for a modest duration upgrade from a skill preceeding it in cLvl availability. And waddayaknow. There's Smite sitting right there cringing at the prospective of not being viable until well after Holy Shield is purchased, for the simple reason that a thirty second weapon is . . . yucky.
Enough from me.
WarBlade out.
Synergies. - roguebanshee - 07-12-2003
An idea for the sorceress would be to have cross-tree synergies through her masteries only, letting Fire Mastery boost damage for all spells, Lightning Mastery reduce mana cost (as it originally did) and Cold Mastery add resistance piercing to the apropriate element. Each of the masteries would have full effect within its own tree and half that with the other two trees (eg. FM adds 30% damage to Fire spells and 15% damage to Lightning/Cold spells with 1 skill point).
I haven't done any calculations to see if it's abusive or not but it's an idea that imo doesn't restrict builds as badly as the current synnergies.
Synergies. - kandrathe - 07-12-2003
The focus now seems to be on the Paladin, however I was thinking about what could possibly be done with necro curses.
Roughly there are three themes (if you call them that);
1. Amp(1) --> IM(12) --> LifeTap(18)
2. Dim(6) --> Confuse(18) --> Attract(24)
3. Weaken(6) --> Terror (12) --> Decrepify(24)
With the que de gras being Lower Resistance(30) needing the 6 prerequisites from tracks 1 and 3.
The variability involved with most curses is radius of effect and duration.
Only two curses have an effectiveness curve others are flat;
- Amp Dmg always 100%
* IM goes from 200% to 675% damage returned.
- Weaken is always -33%
- Life Tap is always 50% life returned
- Decrepify is always -50% speed, damage, physical resistance
* Lower resistance goes from -31% to -62%
To me one of the problems in curses is that radius and duration alone are not motivating enough to invest more than 1 point. You can later rely on + skills items to pump up all the necro skills, or curse skills en masse. Only IM maybe, and LR need any serious investment. So first I think the modder would need to address the entire tree, to see how this can be altered to make it worth investing it. For synergy purposes, it may be better to think about the curses this way;
A. Curses that affect the damage done to of groups of monsters(Amp, IM, LR).
B. Curses that affect how much damage monsters do to others(Weaken, Decrepify, Lifetap).
C. Curses that affect groups of monster behavior (Dim, Confuse, Terror).
D. Curses that affect a single monster(Attract).
Similiar to Warblades concerns relating the Auras, A and B will present the most trouble in changing the skill without overpowering members of the party.
Opportunities for change;
Amp Dmg -- put it on a curve, maybe begin at 50%, 100% at level 10, and 120% at level 20. Since it is the only lvl 1 curse make it be a driver for all curses durations. Curses now mostly go from around 6 seconds to 60 seconds, some more, some less. So, I would reduce the durations of all curses to 1/4 of their current times, and have all curse durations multiplied by (Amp Dmg Lvl *.2 = 4 at lvl 20). It doesn't need to be just one skill however, you could have two curses contributing to duration (curse1 +curse 2) *.1 etc. Radius would be easier to keep a factor of the skill only, but it could also have some synergistic effect.
IM -- You wouldn't want to change the damage curve, but maybe this could be a synergy contributor for life tap.
Lifetap -- put it on a curve, with IM, and/or Weaken contributing synergies. Change it to go from 10% to 50%, with IM/Weaken adding .5%/lvl giving maxed Life tap and maxed synergy giving a max of 60% life returned. Of course the danger is that someone gets +skill items that would send it higher, so you would want to flatten out the ramp up past 20. Aim for 70% max possible with all skills decked out.
Weaken -- put it on a curve, (-10% to -40%), with it contributing to Decrepify, and maybe Lifetap as well.
Dim Vision -- Affecting monster AI is a hard one to theorize about synergistic effects. I guess if it were possible Dim Vision investment could be additive to Confuse. That is, investment in Dim Vision would contribute to the effects of Confuse.
Confuse/Attract/Terror -- Monsters are Confused/Attracted/Terrorized as normal, but also their vision/attention is obscured by your investment in Dim Vision.
Lower Resistance -- have it go from 20% to 40%, with investments in Weaken, Decrep, and IM contributing .5%/level
Anyway, I don't think that would unduly throw balances out the window. What are your thought?
Synergies. - mageofthesands - 07-12-2003
I don't really care. What I want is something to keep me interested in D2. I want something interesting. More than just + % damage. Extra bolts from Amazon's Bolt Spear thing. More Skeletons for Necro (I wanted better Skellies, not less of them. Same for mages.) More Ravens, and more damage from them. I loved what you did to Firestorm in Dark Tower. I play a Stormy Druid like a Twinked Sorc. Adding points to other skills increases damage, number of streams, reduces timer, etc. That's what I want.
Synergies. - Ruvanal - 07-12-2003
Dagni,Jul 12 2003, 06:04 AM Wrote:Roland:Quote:A few notes:I don't suppose that it is possible to give the bonus for the base skill level, plus individual +skills, but without + all skills included? I.e. with +2 to Bone Spear, +1 Poison/Bone on a wand, it would give +2 to Bone Spear for the purpose of synergies.
1) Synergies can be set to ONLY give their bonus for the BASE skill level, or for the entire skill level.
That's the way I wish Blizzard would have done it.
- Dagni
Quote:Nope.
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It's an all or nothing deal. Either you allow synergy bonuses for ALL +skill items, or for none of them. No inbetweens.
Linear thinkings will lead one to Rolands' conclusion. Non-linear thinking can get a work around to this in spite of program not having specific codes to seperate out the +class skills, +skill tabs, +specific skill settings.
First create a dummy skill for each skill tab of each character. Roland didn't mention that there can be more than 30 skills per class now did he?. ;) These will be place holders that do nothing and do not need to ever be seen by the player. For an an example skill I will use later we will have the skill socfiredummy for the sorceress fire tab skills.
Next assign these skills to the character classes in the correct arrangement using charstats.txt (the skill X columns). The only problems here are the assassin as she only has two blank slots open and barbarian with one blank slot. But you may only need to set up these dummy skills for certain tabs anyway, which could let you ignore actually assigning all of them to the classes.
Now for the synergy bonuses using Warmth as the "boosting" skill for some other skills 'damage':
Full skill level: (skill('Warmth.lvl'))*X
base points only: (skill('Warmth.blvl'))*X
All bonus skill points to the fire tab (i.e. +skills and +fire tab skills):
(skill('socfiredummy.lvl')-skill('socfiredummy.blvl'))*X
Only bonuses to the Warmth skill itself:
(skill('Warmth.lvl')-skill('Warmth.blvl')-(skill('socfiredummy.lvl')-skill('socfiredummy.blvl')))*X
or for what Dagni asked skill plus only specific skill bonuses:
(skill('Warmth.lvl')-(skill('socfiredummy.lvl')-skill('socfiredummy.blvl')))*X
Other combinations like this might be worked out to tease things like only the skill tab bonuses or some such. Yes the lines will get messy to type out but that is the price to work around some programs short comings.
Synergies. - whyBish - 07-13-2003
Arutha,Jul 12 2003, 09:04 PM Wrote:And the diminishing returns on it ought to go as well. Each skill must have a reason to be pumped for its own sake (synergies are just a cop out). Or leave the dimishing returns, but give it another effect (like an underpowered "avoid" ? 1% chance per slvl ?).I think it would be great if all skills in the game were under diminishing returns.
For example the Zon's passive tree is a great example with D/A/E/Crit Strike. You can easily put 11 or so skill points in there without feeling like you are being ripped off.
Another example would be some of the assassin skills(although she has too many one-point wonders). Fade/BoS is now nice since it stacks with Venom, death sentry doesn't need to be maxed to be useful, shadow master doesn't need to be maxed to be useful (although you investment is rewarded past level 12).
If a character has a number of skills that can be partially invested in under diminishing returns (and maybe a few mutually exclusive skills with constant damage that can be ramped linearly) then it is a whole lot more interesting. The main problem with this though is that there are two classes which are not designed to handle this, the sorc, and the paladin. The sorc pretty much just has different ways of dealing damage so will end up with 20/20 in one thing and 20/20 in a second element (with a point in teleport, and maybe some warmth).
The paladin is not at as bad a starting point as this, since he has one tab on ways to deal damage, one tab of auras that help with dealing damage, one one tab with protection. The problem for the paladin is that he can only use one aura at a time. I would fix this by making his main aura work for himself and his party at full strength, and any points in *any* other aura work at a discounted rate for *himself* only (perhaps a quarter?). The only problem here would be to remove the one point wonder effects from this (e.g. the knockback on sanctuary should only work if sanctuary is turned on), and redemption/meditation and the resist auras would all need to be scaled back to account for this (I.E. They were originally pumped because having them on involves giving up you damage aura)
Even a limited version of this would make it more interesting, but it would have to be cross-tree, perhaps pairing up one damage aura with one or more defensive auras and vice-versa?
Synergies. - Vornzog - 07-13-2003
'Lo Lurkers,
Here is a question no one has asked so far - just how complicated can this get?
Now, when Roland begins his latest modding endeavor, he won't want as much complexity as may be offered. Hopefully we here at the lounge can help him hammer out a coherent, balanced, and mostly simple approach. But while everyone is in the speculation phase, what sort of crazy, off-kilter ideas can we come up with? Feel free to shoot me down if an idea is not possible because of programming issues. Other than that, feel free to join in with what-if's of your own. Think of stuff that might be possible, but that never occurred to the Blizzard programmers. Or even the stuff that they threw out because it was too hard.
Some stuff I'd like to know:
- Can you apply anti-synergies? I.e., can a penalty to a skill be applied for pumping another skill? This could add balance to skills that are maxed because a character cannot possibly be viable without them. For instance, it might be a fix for the all too common 'Just drop 20 points in bone spirit, and never worry about any boss, including the ancients, again.' syndrome. Wouldn't want these to be too harsh, or everyone would just avoid that skill. This might also be good for something like berserk and concentrate. Every point in berserk reduces you defensive rating a bit when you use any other offensive skill, while maybe adding a bit of damage. Each point in concentrate could increase the defense rating for other attack skills.
- What about an initial penalty that could be overcome with a 3-4 point investment in a given skill? Might take some of the air out of one-point wonders. For example, what if teleport was non-functional or too mana-intense to use unless you had several skill points in telekinesis? What if a teleport actually did a bit of damage to the user, which could be mitigated by warmth, or eventually, heal the user a bit? Or something like that...
- Could pumping one skill actually add a skill level to another? Say at a 5:1 or even 10:1 exchange? Can't think of a good reason to do this, but it would be nice to know if you could. :blink:
That's all that I can think of off the top of my head. Maybe it's time for me to get down and dirty with the data files, and check some of this out myself. Any suggestions as to starting points? I've heard the Phrozen Keep mentioned as a modders site - is this correct? I'll go check it out.
Thoughts? Feedback? Flames? New crazy synergy ideas? Bring it on! B)
-V-