An Interesting Take on BLM

[FireIceTalon]

The US welfare state is one of the least generous among the developed world. I've been on welfare before (Snap program), and known many others who have, and let me tell you: There is absolutely nothing gracious about it. Not only is having to rely on the State to survive because your corporate master pays you so little demoralizing in itself, but having little or no extra money to do anything fun or interesting is pretty miserable and depressing as well. Then the shameful and scornful looks you get from people in the grocery store - you can feel the judgment a mile away. It is the epitome of Marx's concept of 'alienation".

I'm not in that situation anymore, thankfully, but the whole rhetoric that we spend way too much on welfare programs is one of the biggest lies we are told. No, what we spend way too much on is US imperialist wars and the for-profit prison system.

Although, the state of Washington did just pass a law that mothers may now get 12 weeks maternity leave paid. Pretty sad though that its only in one state and that such things are standard in just about every other developed country but ours. US is backwards and has a long ways to go, a VERY long ways to go.

[kandrathe]

The US welfare state is one of the least generous among the developed world. I've been on welfare before (Snap program), and known many others who have, and let me tell you: There is absolutely nothing gracious about it. Not only is having to rely on the State to survive because your corporate master pays you so little demoralizing in itself, but having little or no extra money to do anything fun or interesting is pretty miserable and depressing as well.

Not when you look at the Kit-n-Caboodle. We spend much money fairly frivolously on the elderly who, other than health, usually have lower costs.

   

[LavCat]

We spend much money fairly frivolously on the elderly who, other than health, usually have lower costs.

Frivolously, who says?

[kandrathe]

We spend much money fairly frivolously on the elderly who, other than health, usually have lower costs.

Frivolously, who says?

Not that I'm complaining *cough* free breakfast *cough*.



   

[Jester]

I suspect that's not handouts to seniors. I'd bet that's increasing inequality plus career progression. It doesn't take that many people delaying retirement (presumably after seeing much of their wealth wiped out in 2008) to raise the average income by quite a lot. There's nothing free about that lunch!

-Jester

[Taem]

We don't offer gracious handouts. We provide the minimal amount of sustenance.

My girlfriend who grew up in El Salvador would scoff at your suggestions that Americans are given minimal support. She grew up in one of the most worn-torn parts of the country filled with embroiled gang members and no government assistance whatsoever. What aid did come in came from international organizations and even then, the people were lucky to receive anything at all after the government officials took their share. Don't kid yourself here, in America, we give a LOT to the poor... and what do they do with it?

My girlfriend chose to rise above the rest in her culture, and didn't get swept up in the cultural identity that has become MS-13. She and her family chose to become exiled and live a normal life here abroad. While her story is anecdotal, there is empirical data showing success in her country restoring order and morality to the citizens through programs such as SHARE, but why are programs like this successful? They're not offering the level of free handouts like we are here in America. They are instead coaxing young children to attend and finish school, especially young girls, and are stressing the importance of family and community. These programs are basically rewriting the cultural identity of the crime infested parts of El Salvador, steering them away from the victim mentality that they must join MS-13 to be tough and survive, and instead look towards a brighter future where they can becomes leaders in their community.

By observing other cultures that are currently succeeding in making a difference to their crime infested sub-cultures, I'll tell you it's NOT from giving more and more to a broad group based on their income level, because the truth is the more you give, the more reliant the poor become on your handouts! You do them far more harm and injustice this way! Instead you need to give them the tools they need to survive on their own without your help. Change the cultural identity of your specific target group to help them succeed.

[FireIceTalon]

We don't offer gracious handouts. We provide the minimal amount of sustenance.

My girlfriend who grew up in El Salvador would scoff at your suggestions that Americans are given minimal support. She grew up in one of the most worn-torn parts of the country filled with embroiled gang members and no government assistance whatsoever. What aid did come in came from international organizations and even then, the people were lucky to receive anything at all after the government officials took their share. Don't kid yourself here, in America, we give a LOT to the poor... and what do they do with it?

My girlfriend chose to rise above the rest in her culture, and didn't get swept up in the cultural identity that has become MS-13. She and her family chose to become exiled and live a normal life here abroad. While her story is anecdotal, there is empirical data showing success in her country restoring order and morality to the citizens through programs such as SHARE, but why are programs like this successful? They're not offering the level of free handouts like we are here in America. They are instead coaxing young children to attend and finish school, especially young girls, and are stressing the importance of family and community. These programs are basically rewriting the cultural identity of the crime infested parts of El Salvador, steering them away from the victim mentality that they must join MS-13 to be tough and survive, and instead look towards a brighter future where they can becomes leaders in their community.

By observing other cultures that are currently succeeding in making a difference to their crime infested sub-cultures, I'll tell you it's NOT from giving more and more to a broad group based on their income level, because the truth is the more you give, the more reliant the poor become on your handouts! You do them far more harm and injustice this way! Instead you need to give them the tools they need to survive on their own without your help. Change the cultural identity of your specific target group to help them succeed.

So if you hate the welfare system so much, why don't you move back to El Salvador where there is almost no welfare state? Or better yet, an economic shit hole like Somalia or Sudan, which have virtually no welfare state at all. Somalia is the probably the closest example of a pure capitalist society that has no welfare state, and its one of the worst places in the world to live.

You know, you really do talk out of your ass a lot. If it wasn't for the welfare state, your little capitalist society would crumble in seconds from social unrest and revolution.

[kandrathe]

I suspect that's not handouts to seniors. I'd bet that's increasing inequality plus career progression. It doesn't take that many people delaying retirement (presumably after seeing much of their wealth wiped out in 2008) to raise the average income by quite a lot. There's nothing free about that lunch!

-Jester

Maybe also an increasing number of people are like my 85 year old mom, who walk/jogs for a mile every morning. She's in 10x better shape than her mom at the same age.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/15/busin...-life.html

[LavCat]

I suspect that's not handouts to seniors. I'd bet that's increasing inequality plus career progression. It doesn't take that many people delaying retirement (presumably after seeing much of their wealth wiped out in 2008) to raise the average income by quite a lot. There's nothing free about that lunch!

-Jester

Maybe also an increasing number of people are like my 85 year old mom, who walk/jogs for a mile every morning. She's in 10x better shape than her mom at the same age.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/15/busin...-life.html

When my mom was 85 she had been dead for 39 years.

[kandrathe]

I suspect that's not handouts to seniors. I'd bet that's increasing inequality plus career progression. It doesn't take that many people delaying retirement (presumably after seeing much of their wealth wiped out in 2008) to raise the average income by quite a lot. There's nothing free about that lunch!

-Jester

Maybe also an increasing number of people are like my 85 year old mom, who walk/jogs for a mile every morning. She's in 10x better shape than her mom at the same age.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/15/busin...-life.html

When my mom was 85 she had been dead for 39 years.

Her husband has ducked death three times now. He had a mild heart attack with quintuple bypass 20 years ago, then a stroke 12 years ago, then 6 years ago a MRSA in his lower spine. But, they keep fixing him. Tough old coot. He drove up to Minnesota from Texas and kept up with all the great grand kiddos. He's getting his cataracts fixed so he can return to bus driving at 90.

[kandrathe]

We don't offer gracious handouts. We provide the minimal amount of sustenance.

My girlfriend who grew up in El Salvador would scoff at your suggestions that Americans are given minimal support. She grew up in one of the most worn-torn parts of the country filled with embroiled gang members and no government assistance whatsoever. What aid did come in came from international organizations and even then, the people were lucky to receive anything at all after the government officials took their share. Don't kid yourself here, in America, we give a LOT to the poor... and what do they do with it?

My girlfriend chose to rise above the rest in her culture, and didn't get swept up in the cultural identity that has become MS-13. She and her family chose to become exiled and live a normal life here abroad. While her story is anecdotal, there is empirical data showing success in her country restoring order and morality to the citizens through programs such as SHARE, but why are programs like this successful? They're not offering the level of free handouts like we are here in America. They are instead coaxing young children to attend and finish school, especially young girls, and are stressing the importance of family and community. These programs are basically rewriting the cultural identity of the crime infested parts of El Salvador, steering them away from the victim mentality that they must join MS-13 to be tough and survive, and instead look towards a brighter future where they can becomes leaders in their community.

By observing other cultures that are currently succeeding in making a difference to their crime infested sub-cultures, I'll tell you it's NOT from giving more and more to a broad group based on their income level, because the truth is the more you give, the more reliant the poor become on your handouts! You do them far more harm and injustice this way! Instead you need to give them the tools they need to survive on their own without your help. Change the cultural identity of your specific target group to help them succeed.

Except... The kumbaya approach you advocate here is to place the blame for the plight of blacks on black culture, which denies the reality of the real history of repression and racism. Why not turn this around to kumbaya, hold majority culture accountable for changing?

Why shouldn't we enable and embrace minority aspirations to improve the opportunities for the disadvantaged, including holding the magnifying glass to areas of systemic racial disparity as evidenced by statistical fact?

Check out; Robin DiAngelo two essays titled “Why It’s So Hard to Talk to White People About Racism" and "11 Ways White America Avoids Taking Responsibility for its Racism".

[Ashock]

We don't offer gracious handouts. We provide the minimal amount of sustenance.

My girlfriend who grew up in El Salvador would scoff at your suggestions that Americans are given minimal support. She grew up in one of the most worn-torn parts of the country filled with embroiled gang members and no government assistance whatsoever. What aid did come in came from international organizations and even then, the people were lucky to receive anything at all after the government officials took their share. Don't kid yourself here, in America, we give a LOT to the poor... and what do they do with it?

My girlfriend chose to rise above the rest in her culture, and didn't get swept up in the cultural identity that has become MS-13. She and her family chose to become exiled and live a normal life here abroad. While her story is anecdotal, there is empirical data showing success in her country restoring order and morality to the citizens through programs such as SHARE, but why are programs like this successful? They're not offering the level of free handouts like we are here in America. They are instead coaxing young children to attend and finish school, especially young girls, and are stressing the importance of family and community. These programs are basically rewriting the cultural identity of the crime infested parts of El Salvador, steering them away from the victim mentality that they must join MS-13 to be tough and survive, and instead look towards a brighter future where they can becomes leaders in their community.

By observing other cultures that are currently succeeding in making a difference to their crime infested sub-cultures, I'll tell you it's NOT from giving more and more to a broad group based on their income level, because the truth is the more you give, the more reliant the poor become on your handouts! You do them far more harm and injustice this way! Instead you need to give them the tools they need to survive on their own without your help. Change the cultural identity of your specific target group to help them succeed.

Except... The kumbaya approach you advocate here is to place the blame for the plight of blacks on black culture, which denies the reality of the real history of repression and racism. Why not turn this around to kumbaya, hold majority culture accountable for changing?

Why shouldn't we enable and embrace minority aspirations to improve the opportunities for the disadvantaged, including holding the magnifying glass to areas of systemic racial disparity as evidenced by statistical fact?

Check out; Robin DiAngelo two essays titled “Why It’s So Hard to Talk to White People About Racism" and "11 Ways White America Avoids Taking Responsibility for its Racism".

Here is another link, slightly differing in content from yours. The race discussion starts at about minute 8.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqJnzBHURvs

This is also very good, but it's about 1.5 years old.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFqVNPwsLNo

[Taem]

Except... The kumbaya approach you advocate here is to place the blame for the plight of blacks on black culture,

The current state of the subculture, yes. Of course not the past where they were clearly oppressed, don't conflate the past with the present here please; each has it's own valid yet disparate points to address.

which denies the reality of the real history of repression and racism.

What are you talking about? NOW, in this day and age, there is simply not nearly as much racism in this country as you'd try and make me believe. I don't believe every judge who tries and convicts a POC due to their unrepentant attitude is a racist, or a moron who indulges the fantasies or whims of whispers in their court; I don't buy that BS for one second! I've heard people in current days use the 'n' word, but its usually offhanded or out of anger and not meant to be racist, not real racism anyway. Quick sidetrack story here, I used that word myself, as have my friends, none of which were racist at all. Most of us were merely copying the lyrics popular in 90's rap because, believe it or not, the 'n' word was very popular back then and just saying it does not make you a racist.

Right now in this time in America, the POC in poverty have their own subculture, and it's even touted in art, poems, and songs by other POC trapped in this subculture. Many rap songs in the 90's documented the truth of this subculture mentality, and it didn't say anything about Whitey or oppression, but spoke out specifically about other POC, doing crime for money, the police trying to keep them down (from committing their crimes), and banging hoes. The rap songs didn't make this subculture what it is, it was already there... the songs just documented the reality of living in this subculture.

Why shouldn't we enable and embrace minority aspirations to improve the opportunities for the disadvantaged,

Isn't that what I'm advocating by embracing a change in cultural identity, by urging leaders to rise up and change the mentality of this subculture, by encouraging young girls to value themselves to go to college and young men to take responsibility for their babies? Again, your approach is to focus on the past and not the present. As I said in my last post, look at what has worked in other subcultures... and what hasn't. Giving too much to the poor makes then dependent. Not addressing a cultural identity when its the root cause of the problem does not solve anything. You can solve poverty and still not fix this issue because that is not 100% the problem! You keep trying to blame the issues befalling POC on systemic racism throughout the nation coming from the justice system itself, on poverty, on the past and segregation, on anything except the true issue here of their cultural identity.

I think at this point, we are talking in circles and regurgitating old materials in different ways. Obviously neither of us can change the others mind so unless I hear something new, I suppose this as good a time as any to agree to disagree and leave it at that. Up to you.

[FireIceTalon]

I've heard people in current days use the 'n' word, but its usually offhanded or out of anger and not meant to be racist, not real racism anyway. Quick sidetrack story here, I used that word myself, as have my friends, none of which were racist at all. Most of us were merely copying the lyrics popular in 90's rap because, believe it or not, the 'n' word was very popular back then and just saying it does not make you a racist.

I'm going to gloss over the other crap you said, because this needs special and immediate attention. You truly are one of the biggest fucking idiots I've ever come across, on the internet or in real life. Let me tell you something kiddo (and you should listen closely, cause it might save your life one day):

YOU ARE NOT BLACK. YOU CANNOT USE THAT WORD. UNDER ANY FUCKING CIRCUMSTANCES. EVER.

In case you didn't understand that, let me repeat it again: YOU ARE NOT BLACK. YOU CANNOT USE THAT WORD. EVER. UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES.

I ain't all too surprised that you have used it though. White supremacist vermin will use it at any opportunity. You think the use of that word, by someone who isn't black, is not racist? Go down to the hood, use that word, and try to tell them you are not being racist. LOL. When you get beatin' to a pulp Reginald Denny style (or worse), don't act all surprised. Just be sure to tell me when and where you will do this, so I can testify against you as witness in court (assuming you survive the ordeal).

in current days use the 'n' word, but its usually offhanded or out of anger and not meant to be racist, not real racism anyway.

You cannot be serious. Whatever it is you are smoking, I want some! There is no such thing as 'real or fake' racism. Lets pretend for a moment me and you know one another in real life, and we are having a conversation when you say something I don't like, then I proceed to break your face in, and then I say "oh it wasn't 'real' assault." Will you agree that? I bet you wouldn't. That shit wouldn't fly in court, either. Your head is so far up your fucking ass you dont even realize how erroneous the garbage you spew is. You have no logic whatsoever.

When black people call eachother that word, it is used in a comradery context. When anyone who is not black uses it, especially a white person, it is WEAPONIZED. The liberal Bill Maher said the same crap you did more or less, then tried to justify it using the same faulty rationale and he got grilled by Ice Cube, who made him look stupid on his own show.

I don't care how much 90's rap you listen to. I listen to it all the time also, and I know better than to ever use that word, cause I'm not black. That word was racist during the slave trade, and it is still racist now. Period.

Many rap songs in the 90's documented the truth of this subculture mentality, and it didn't say anything about Whitey or oppression, but spoke out specifically about other POC, doing crime for money, the police trying to keep them down (from committing their crimes), and banging hoes.

I listen to 1990's rap almost exclusively within the rap genre, and can tell you, that you are absolutely wrong. I suggest you listen to Public Enemy, NWA, early Ice Cube, 2Pac, X-Clan, Dead Prez, Nas, Geto Boys, Scarface, etc.....and then tell me, with a perfectly straight face - that oppression, discrimination, power structures, class dynamics, police brutality and white supremacy, etc are not spoken about. You either have a piss poor memory or you got selective hearing. And all the stuff you mentioned is not merely a product of black culture, but of capitalist social relations. You reducing it down to culture is a gross oversimplification of history.

[Ashock]

You truly are one of the biggest fucking idiots I've ever come across, on the internet or in real life.

Bolty, please get this trash out of here. This is not about it's point of view. It's about it's vulgarity and lack of self-control. It curses people out regularly. This is not the way to hold an even semi-civil discussion.

---

I listen to 1990's rap almost exclusively.

Ahh, this explains certain things.

[FireIceTalon]

You truly are one of the biggest fucking idiots I've ever come across, on the internet or in real life.

Bolty, please get this trash out of here. This is not about it's point of view. It's about it's vulgarity and lack of self-control. It curses people out regularly. This is not the way to hold an even semi-civil discussion.

---

I listen to 1990's rap almost exclusively.

Ahh, this explains certain things.

This is comical. You and Taem both openly adhere to racist ideology, which in itself is inherently uncivil and vulgar, not to mention anti-social, and you have the gall to cry about people not being civil with you? ROFL.

Taem called me a fucking idiot earlier in this thread (see post #9, dont bother to edit it Taem - I already got a screen shot), but you didn't say a word about that, so you may kindly sit down and quit flappin' your gums. I really couldn't care though, cause I know his view is the wrong one and he hasn't the logic or rationale to support it, whereas I need only sit on the shoulders of history to see my observations as the correct ones.

I'll tell you what explains certain things: you being more upset at me calling Taem an idiot than the fact he is an admitted racist and regular user of the N-word. Gee, a white nationalist backing another white nationalist! Who would have thought? Maybe you guys should go back to wingnut central aka stormfront and have your racist circle jerk there.

P.S. This thread should be renamed "The White nationalist take on BLM". Was a shit thread to begin with.

[kandrathe]

Isn't that what I'm advocating by embracing a change in cultural identity, by urging leaders to rise up and change the mentality of this subculture, by encouraging young girls to value themselves to go to college and young men to take responsibility for their babies? Again, your approach is to focus on the past and not the present. As I said in my last post, look at what has worked in other subcultures... and what hasn't. Giving too much to the poor makes then dependent. Not addressing a cultural identity when its the root cause of the problem does not solve anything. You can solve poverty and still not fix this issue because that is not 100% the problem! You keep trying to blame the issues befalling POC on systemic racism throughout the nation coming from the justice system itself, on poverty, on the past and segregation, on anything except the true issue here of their cultural identity.

I think at this point, we are talking in circles and regurgitating old materials in different ways. Obviously neither of us can change the others mind so unless I hear something new, I suppose this as good a time as any to agree to disagree and leave it at that. Up to you.

No, not circles. I'm not denying the "be good and good things happen " but... there are so many ways to slide off that slippery, steep, and narrow path. I'm just saying... "Why is that path so damned steep, so damned slippery, and so damned narrow?" It doesn't have to be. It's that way because THE MAJORITY CULTURE doesn't mind that life is hard at the bottom. I know it looks like a ladder, but there are no damned rungs on the lower third. As for history, do you think anything is different now than in 1960?

The unfinished march

In that the majority culture accepts the status quo, which we agree is not the way we'd like it, in the face of such abysmal statistics, I'd have to also point at what must be the incremental sum of passive, complacent racism in education, in employment, in wealth opportunities, and in criminal justice.

Now... it's obvious you didn't read those two last links I posted. Go read them, and we can talk more. And, really take them to heart. The one that I ruminated on hard is "Individualism". I truly do think with enough luck, and determination you can pull yourself up by your boot straps. But, in the context of this discussion I must also recognize that this works for me as a white male, but it might not work for others the same way.

The area I live in has been very welcoming of refugees and immigrants since the beginning. I see that in many cases, sub-culture unity is crucial in propelling everyone in that subculture upwards.

Back, to rap. Don't you see that this art form was their creation, and a hopeful, not criminal way to escape poverty. One way that majority culture deals with counter culture is to subsume it, then consume it and crap it out as popular culture. Like so many whites, including Elvis, justify cultural theft as flattery. Get real. Its about the money.



Absolutely cringeworthy.

[FireIceTalon]

Back, to rap. Don't you see that this art form was their creation, and a hopeful, not criminal way to escape poverty. One way that majority culture deals with counter culture is to subsume it, then consume it and crap it out as popular culture. Like so many whites, including Elvis, justify cultural theft as flattery. Get real. Its about the money.



Absolutely cringeworthy.

My jaw fell to the fucking floor when I read this. I don't think I have ever agreed with you more than I do here.

It is no coincidence that hip hop today is not nearly as socially conscious or "raw" compared to the art form it was in the 1980's and 1990's, and the early 2000's to some extent. It's there, but you have to look much harder to find it now.

So many fucking classic records from that era. The 90's for rap was like the 60's was for rock n roll - it was a MOVEMENT that transcended the music itself, yet was integral in why the music from those respective eras was/is so incredible and timeless. I still listen to alot of the 90's rap albums like they just came out last week, and I've owned some of these records going on 20 years.

But yea, hip hop was one of the very very few routes and opportunities for young black males to make it out of a life of poverty, crime and drug dealing. It's really why those early-mid 90's records are so pure and raw in sound, they are a product of the 'crack era' and the effect it and Reaganomics had on black communities. Some of the records do glorify life in the hood, but it's mostly a 'respect the roots' or unity kind of thing. Most of the time though, they considered themselves as reporters for what was going on in their communities and showed the poverty and violence more as a fact of their environment rather than as something they wanted to keep doing - since it got little or no coverage in regular MAINSTREAM media, and the rare coverage it did get was more to portray them negatively or victim-blame as Taem does.

[kandrathe]

We don't offer gracious handouts. We provide the minimal amount of sustenance.

My girlfriend who grew up in El Salvador would scoff at your suggestions that Americans are given minimal support. She grew up in one of the most worn-torn parts of the country filled with embroiled gang members and no government assistance whatsoever. What aid did come in came from international organizations and even then, the people were lucky to receive anything at all after the government officials took their share. Don't kid yourself here, in America, we give a LOT to the poor... and what do they do with it?

My girlfriend chose to rise above the rest in her culture, and didn't get swept up in the cultural identity that has become MS-13. She and her family chose to become exiled and live a normal life here abroad. While her story is anecdotal, there is empirical data showing success in her country restoring order and morality to the citizens through programs such as SHARE, but why are programs like this successful? They're not offering the level of free handouts like we are here in America. They are instead coaxing young children to attend and finish school, especially young girls, and are stressing the importance of family and community. These programs are basically rewriting the cultural identity of the crime infested parts of El Salvador, steering them away from the victim mentality that they must join MS-13 to be tough and survive, and instead look towards a brighter future where they can becomes leaders in their community.

By observing other cultures that are currently succeeding in making a difference to their crime infested sub-cultures, I'll tell you it's NOT from giving more and more to a broad group based on their income level, because the truth is the more you give, the more reliant the poor become on your handouts! You do them far more harm and injustice this way! Instead you need to give them the tools they need to survive on their own without your help. Change the cultural identity of your specific target group to help them succeed.

Except... The kumbaya approach you advocate here is to place the blame for the plight of blacks on black culture, which denies the reality of the real history of repression and racism. Why not turn this around to kumbaya, hold majority culture accountable for changing?

Why shouldn't we enable and embrace minority aspirations to improve the opportunities for the disadvantaged, including holding the magnifying glass to areas of systemic racial disparity as evidenced by statistical fact?

Check out; Robin DiAngelo two essays titled “Why It’s So Hard to Talk to White People About Racism" and "11 Ways White America Avoids Taking Responsibility for its Racism".

Here is another link, slightly differing in content from yours. The race discussion starts at about minute 8.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqJnzBHURvs

This is also very good, but it's about 1.5 years old.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFqVNPwsLNo

I've seen them. I appreciate anyone who does the hard work to think through tough problems, and then be able to defend them. Larry Elder is a successful lawyer who found his way out of poverty on the toil of his father. To me, his approach toward BLM is as off putting as are his militant in your face opponents. Why does everyone have to go hyperbolic to get attention? We end up not having an agreement in the middle, but rather struggles in the extremes.



I like NDT's message better. We might be able to discuss black lives, when you understand the life of a black person. But, until then, he focuses on being a scientist. Not a black scientist. A scientist, and a good man.

[Taem]

Now... it's obvious you didn't read those two last links I posted. Go read them, and we can talk more.

That is because I don't particularly like being led by the nose. I've made every attempt to address your points in your other posts but I noticed the favor has not been returned. You dance and prose with a purpose... which makes me question rather my message is really getting through at all. The blind leading the blind?

In regards specifically to Robin DiAngelo, I will admit to finding his articles eloquently put and intellectual to be sure. He does hit some very sound notes about white guilt, but fails utterly to address how POC can overcome this. Tell me, I grew up in Santa Barbara where, according to census studies, there are 75% whites, and 32% Hispanic descent, so how is it most of the hundreds of Hispanic families I'm friends with here are very successful and have no cultural troubles fitting in? I'm sure this is also not just anecdotal but something I can prove with statistics if I bother to search, however I wanted to first point out that I now live in Oxnard California where whites are the minority and Hispanics the majority and neither whites or Hispanics in Oxnard suffer from this supposed racism Robin DiAngelo claims to be pervading the unconscious minds of minorities that tells them they are less than a given race simply due to either their color or due to being surrounded by whity. Give me a break - white guilt at it's finest no doubt! Was that article written only for black people? And if so, my argument only becomes more urgent regarding cultural identity. I personally know many, many Hispanic families that came from NOTHING without a dollar in their pockets, here illegally with the entire system against them and they have not only succeeded in life, but excelled, owning mansions in Mexico. I can prove this as fact!!! And it's not just one or two families, but many, many families. Aren't Hispanics considered POC also kandrathe? What sets them aside specifically from other POC is their cultural identity of close family ties, of personal bonds, of helping one another. How can you not see this?

Back, to rap. Don't you see that this art form was their creation, and a hopeful, not criminal way to escape poverty. One way that majority culture deals with counter culture is to subsume it, then consume it and crap it out as popular culture. Like so many whites, including Elvis, justify cultural theft as flattery. Get real. Its about the money.

My point about the arts had to do with expressionism of the culture. Try reading some of Tupac Shakur's poetry, pretty deep stuff that exposes a social divide within their own culture/community. What is happening in a community can be understood by examining their arts, but I'm sure you already know this from the cultural arts classes you've undoubtedly taken. Rap is just a form of music... it's what the story is saying that is most telling, and when a great number of people from the same subculture say the same things in music, literature, personal documentaries, etc, then I'm quite certain they have something to express about their culture. Are you listening?

Edit: I apologize ahead of time for the brash tone... It's unbearably hot in the office today and I feel short on patience, but that is no excuse for being rude, and if I came across as such, I do apologize. I'll reread what I wrote when I get home. One final note, you mentioned to me a few posts back on how I singled out the one judge who disagreed with the report on systematic racism and I never gave you a proper answer why, but it's because I felt the writers came into their project with much biasm and were trying to make a point that fit their narrative instead of looking at all facts empirically and without judgment. I'd be interested to hear a similar report done by a completely unbiased party if there could possibly be such a thing. Anyway, switched from office PC to smart phone and hate typing on this thing so, until next time.