11-02-2014, 11:14 PM (This post was last modified: 11-02-2014, 11:29 PM by FireIceTalon.)
Been having a debate with a fellow D1'er on which of these is better.
As someone who owns both of these (including a completely perfect Awesome Stars full plate), I can safely say I prefer the former - with any class. To me, the benefits from the all attributes outweigh the extra hp - and this is especially true on rogue or sorcerer - classes that tend to utilize mana shield very often thus making extra hp meaningless. Although on a "tank mage", I would prefer an Awesome plate of Harmony over either. On a high ac rogue, an Awesome full plate of the Stars should easily be BIS.
Warrior is the only one where I think it is debatable, but even here, I still prefer Awesome Stars since at high levels warriors get a ton of hp anyways. With Awesome Lion, you get a flat 60 hp max, and thats it. With Stars, you get 22 hp, more damage, more mana, more AC, more blocking %, higher chance to hit, and more accurate casting with many spells (such as fireball and firewall). And of course, with mana shield warrior builds, an Awesome Stars would be better for the same reasons it is on the other two classes.
The question is, what to fellow Lurkers here think? For me, Stars no contest.
"Your very ideas are but the outgrowth of conditions of your bourgeois production and bourgeois property, just as your jurisprudence is but the will of your class, made into law for all, a will whose essential character and direction are determined by the economic conditions of the existence of your class." - Marx (on capitalist laws and institutions)
Conventional wisdom tends to value +all for obvious reasons. With heal potions being instantaneous in D1, dexterity is often more critical than raw life. And of course mana shield characters hardly benefit from life at all. But in the case of the warrior this is not a no-brainer, because both choices are insanely good. It would really depend on the rest of the gear and the level of the warrior. If you need the dexterity for blocking, then it would be hard to bet against stars. But it gets interesting if you don't need the dexterity for anything.
The following dream character has no use for additional dexterity (in PvE):
L50 warrior, all base stats maxed, all items perfect:
Royal Circlet
2x obs/zod
drag/zod
awesome shield of tiger
king's sword of haste
awesome plate of the ???
Probably the most common dream list for a warrior, right? Usually the desired plate is "stars". But is it actually better than lion here? AC, blocking, and chance to hit are effectively all maxed out. So we are comparing 5 damage and 11 mana vs. 38 life. The case for "lion" here would be to withstand up to 4 simultaneous hits in many cases. Typically I would only try to account for 3 simultaneous hits. After all you have max AC and 100% blocking, and red potions heal instantly. But how often is 5 damage (added to 190 or so) going to save an attack? So maybe "lion" would indeed be better here.
By the same line of reasoning, the Royal Circlet might be the worst gear choice in the above dream setup. The effective AC is so high there that obs/mammoth (changing one obs to dragon) is probably superior. I think you only lose autohit against blood knights on 13 and 14, and they would still of course be easier than blood knights on 16. At that point awesome/lion loses a bit of luster because your life would already be so high, but it still would merit consideration because everything else is so high too. For a lower level warrior with less than perfect gear, Royal Circlet looks a lot better, and the armor slot is tends to be the biggest AFP you can find.
Obviously I'm not even attempting to consider the ramifications for duelers.
11-03-2014, 03:37 AM (This post was last modified: 11-03-2014, 07:52 AM by FireIceTalon.)
(11-03-2014, 01:50 AM)Nystul Wrote: Conventional wisdom tends to value +all for obvious reasons. With heal potions being instantaneous in D1, dexterity is often more critical than raw life. And of course mana shield characters hardly benefit from life at all. But in the case of the warrior this is not a no-brainer, because both choices are insanely good. It would really depend on the rest of the gear and the level of the warrior. If you need the dexterity for blocking, then it would be hard to bet against stars. But it gets interesting if you don't need the dexterity for anything.
The following dream character has no use for additional dexterity (in PvE):
L50 warrior, all base stats maxed, all items perfect:
Royal Circlet
2x obs/zod
drag/zod
awesome shield of tiger
king's sword of haste
awesome plate of the ???
Probably the most common dream list for a warrior, right? Usually the desired plate is "stars". But is it actually better than lion here? AC, blocking, and chance to hit are effectively all maxed out. So we are comparing 5 damage and 11 mana vs. 38 life. The case for "lion" here would be to withstand up to 4 simultaneous hits in many cases. Typically I would only try to account for 3 simultaneous hits. After all you have max AC and 100% blocking, and red potions heal instantly. But how often is 5 damage (added to 190 or so) going to save an attack? So maybe "lion" would indeed be better here.
By the same line of reasoning, the Royal Circlet might be the worst gear choice in the above dream setup. The effective AC is so high there that obs/mammoth (changing one obs to dragon) is probably superior. I think you only lose autohit against blood knights on 13 and 14, and they would still of course be easier than blood knights on 16. At that point awesome/lion loses a bit of luster because your life would already be so high, but it still would merit consideration because everything else is so high too. For a lower level warrior with less than perfect gear, Royal Circlet looks a lot better, and the armor slot is tends to be the biggest AFP you can find.
Obviously I'm not even attempting to consider the ramifications for duelers.
I use/prefer a slightly different setup than the one listed above for warrior - I prefer Emerald Shield of the Tiger over Awesome/Holy Tiger. Reason is because it allows me to use two Dragon's Zodiac jewels while still keeping a relatively high ac value (over 270). Having well over 300 mana suits my fast play style. Of course, part of this is due to that I often play LAW as well (where an AC shield is completely useless), and between that and all my PvP gear I just don't really have the inventory space to carry an AC shield around.
I can see why some may prefer Lion in certain situations on warrior perhaps, like if you teleport into a horde of Maelstroms, the higher hp maybe more beneficial in such a situation. Storms of course are very nasty with their double fast attack, so one should probably avoid getting surrounded by them in the first place. Well, those AND Lava Maws as well. Being in the middle of a pack of these guys is probably akin to getting hit by 10 Strange Swords of Haste at the same time.
I have a pretty nice Obsidian Mammoth helm, but I mostly use it either when I play certain LAW setups or in PvP if I need lightning resistance for some reason. Generally, I stick with good old RC and Emerald Tiger when I play a standard high ac set-up in PvM. I think this build comes out to roughly the same AC as the Obsidian Mammoth/Awes Tiger build, just with more mana and less hp. I find my 527 hp to be pretty sufficient most of the time, however.
The gear he has equipped currently is the standard build I roll with when playing high ac on hell/hell...though admittedly I often swap out the Awes Stars for Obsidian Stars with 3 x Dragon's Zods and go LAW since high ac is ridiculously easy (be it Lion or Stars). From what I can recall though, my current gear would give me maximum AC vs. any monster in hell except Blood Knights, which force maximum beneficial AC up to 285 (for clvl 50).
I generally agree with your premise though. For a high level warrior, Stars and Lion are pretty close and I think it just comes down to personal preference. For a tank mage, I like Awesome Harmony best (Stars would be a close second), for a rogue, Stars beyond any shadow of a reasonable doubt.
I haven't played with an Awesome Lion on my warrior in years. I have a near perfect one lying around that I haven't used in ages, perhaps I should give it a test run. Will be interesting to see if it makes any difference in soaking up those unlucky consecutive RNG monster hits that get through armor and block.
"Your very ideas are but the outgrowth of conditions of your bourgeois production and bourgeois property, just as your jurisprudence is but the will of your class, made into law for all, a will whose essential character and direction are determined by the economic conditions of the existence of your class." - Marx (on capitalist laws and institutions)
(11-03-2014, 03:37 AM)FireIceTalon Wrote: From what I can recall though, my current gear would give me maximum AC vs. any monster in hell except Blood Knights, which force maximum beneficial AC up to 285 (for clvl 50).
Balrogs and doom guards would hit 20% which is above autohit on level 13, but hardly a cause for concern. Probably best setup possible for some playing styles.
