Maryland abolishes death penalty.

[LavCat]

So what cola *is* available in Cuba? I've been to only one "Communist" country, and the cola there was pretty bad. Reminds me of the movie 1,2,3.

[eppie]

I don't doubt your ability to come up with a valid yet counterpoint argument. But Cuba Cola isn't one of them IMO.

Hammerskjold; i have already mentioned several times that the issue with a communist state (even though Cuba isn't according to FIT, and he knows more about this) is that it requires less freedom for its citizens and that this is of course a bad thing, so I don't know why you try to accuse me of something using (admittedly) witty remarks.

I just say that Cuba does very good in several statistics, and these are not the least important statistics as well. And not only that they do this with a lot of economic difficulties, so that is praiseworthy.

By the way the worst kinds of dictatorships are the ones where people believe they are free.

[FireIceTalon]

Perhaps if the workers got to decide how the cola was made, instead of one man or one corporation deciding, it would be better cola. Just a thought.

[kandrathe]

Perhaps if the workers got to decide how the cola was made, instead of one man or one corporation deciding, it would be better cola. Just a thought.

For you... there is tuKola. Revolutionizing your thirst!

But, you may not want to succumb to this product fetishism, or imperialist wannabe decadence.

[eppie]

Perhaps if the workers got to decide how the cola was made, instead of one man or one corporation deciding, it would be better cola. Just a thought.

For you... there is tuKola. Revolutionizing your thirst!

But, you may not want to succumb to this product fetishism, or imperialist wannabe decadence.

Anyway, bad example from me because Cola is for losers in the first place. I would be happy if it wasn't available in the country I was living in.
For me it's only natural stuff; beer, wine, fruit juice, milk, water, tea and coffee.

Well actually that makes it a good example; a country that worries about if Pepsi or coca cola is best is in a really bad shape (I don't mean just the US, also many European countries are the same)

[FireIceTalon]

I read this over and over again, and it still seems horrifying. What does it mean, to be "required" to take away freedoms, because Cubans, like everyone else, want to be "rich and decadent"? Is the argument that the Cuban system would be great, if only Cubans were different from everyone else, and preferred austere poverty in the name of socialism? I seem to remember Che trying that argument. It seems inhuman.

-Jester

I think eppie is looking at it from the socialist perspective. There are a multitude of reasons why so-called 'communist revolutions' have turned into authoritarian regimes. But the whole "communism cannot work" argument isn't one of them, it doesn't really provide a material explanation of WHY.

Firstly, you have to consider that most of the revolutions thus far are based on a Marxist-Leninist model - that is a revolution led by professional set of intellectuals who take action that guide the working class, rather than directly by the working class themselves. The problem with this of course is that it is elitist and takes on Lenin's assumption that workers can only achieve trade-union consciousness, and not class consciousness. But to be fair, Lenin didn't view it as elitist and I think he intended the Vanguard party to simply consist of the most intellectual and educated of the working class, and have it spread throughout the entire working class over time. It is true that workers need to know what socialism is, as well as understand why capitalism is not in their objective interests. Nevertheless, as a Marxist I distinguish between appearance and essence, and in essence, the Vanguard is elitist, and it is too easy for the party to become a new ruling class. Is is my opinion that if socialism is to prevail, the Leninist model is not one be emulated, and people need to go back to Marx and Engels, who made it very clear that a revolution has to be a bottom-up, democratic movement - by and for the workers. I am all for a MASS proletarian party that is well organized, but not a Vanguard. Party organization is still a big issue of contention on the left, and is one of the reasons why sectarianism persists and our movement remains weak. But I think the second reason below is probably a larger factor still.

You have to put yourself in their situation. In a harsh capitalist world, people like Lenin and Castro faced very difficult choices and circumstances. From their point of view, they have two choices: 1.) they can let the imperialist forces invade their nation and restore capitalism, undoing however many amounts of years of progress toward building socialism they have accomplished. Or 2.) they try to hold on to what they have, which lead to difficulties and a degeneration of the conditions since they are shut out from many markets, forced with limited resources, and under constant threat from western imperialism which results in them becoming a more authoritarian regime that doesn't resemble socialism at all. Then, the bourgeois nations, after forcing them into these conditions turn around and say "see! socialism doesnt work!!", which makes for good pro-capitalist propaganda in the first world. It isn't that socialism as a system can't work - it's that the international bourgeois has done a wonderful job making sure that it doesn't get the chance to come about (thus far), in combination with other material conditions. If there is anything the bourgeois is good at (besides exploiting the working class), it is re-writing history in such a fashion that it presents them in a favorable light (in appearance, but not in essence). I think this is what eppie was getting at, in so many words. This doesn't make the actions of Castro or any other revolutionary leader humane or ethically right by any means (they did a lot of bad things as well as good), but it is important nevertheless to see it from their perspective.

[FireIceTalon]

Perhaps if the workers got to decide how the cola was made, instead of one man or one corporation deciding, it would be better cola. Just a thought.

For you... there is tuKola. Revolutionizing your thirst!

But, you may not want to succumb to this product fetishism, or imperialist wannabe decadence.

Anyway, bad example from me because Cola is for losers in the first place. I would be happy if it wasn't available in the country I was living in.
For me it's only natural stuff; beer, wine, fruit juice, milk, water, tea and coffee.

Well actually that makes it a good example; a country that worries about if Pepsi or coca cola is best is in a really bad shape (I don't mean just the US, also many European countries are the same)

It is how commodity fetishism works man. Capitalism has made people very shallow and materialistic - everything is commodified (including labor) to produce a profit instead of made on its own merits, which is why things have value in appearance but not necessarily in essence. If you are stranded on a island by yourself packed with gold, the gold is going to be absolutely worthless, because you are going to be trying to survive, and not become rich since it would be impossible. You wouldn't have the backs of others to exploit. If you read chapter 1 of Capital Vol.1, Marx explains this concept in much greater detail by analyzing the contradiction of 'exchange value' and 'use value'.

[Hammerskjold]

Hammerskjold; i have already mentioned several times that the issue with a communist state (even though Cuba isn't according to FIT, and he knows more about this)

If by 'knows' you mean tossing off word salads sprinkled with 5 dollars poli-sci speak, then sure. (I have friends that took poli-sci. I'm not fluent, but after multiple campfire conferences, backyard bbq summits, I know some of the dialect.)

So if I understand you correctly, according to FIT, Cuba isn't a -true- Scotsman communist state. Short of it being his own version of commie-topia, does any large scale communist state that has actually happened on -this- earth\dimension so far, count as communism? I'm going on a limb here, and guess that reply would be, 'no, that's not -true- communism'.

A stopped clock is also right twice a day. Doesn't mean it's a good idea to base your schedule around the kaput klock. Though at this rate, the stopped clock will still have a better average than Perfesser' Rouge.

is that it requires less freedom for its citizens and that this is of course a bad thing, so I don't know why you try to accuse me of something using (admittedly) witty remarks.

I'm asking for a clearer explanation of your point, if that sounds accusatory, then I certainly apologize for the perceived tone. But I'm serious here. You say shoju's example and point was faulty. From my own experience, I don't find fault with his observation at all.

I just say that Cuba does very good in several statistics, and these are not the least important statistics as well. And not only that they do this with a lot of economic difficulties, so that is praiseworthy.

At least now you're getting more specific and somewhat clearer. I don't agree 100%, but it's got more clarity than your previous statements. That is what I was asking of you.

By the way the worst kinds of dictatorships are the ones where people believe they are free.

I forgot the exact thread, but iirc it was in a discussion here that someone mentioned different places have different freedoms to do different things.

Some have different levels and types, some have a lot, some have very little. Not one nation have Free Wings and Free Beer, all day every day.

So while I can agree, to a degree with your sentiment of the false belief of 'I'm free to choose between catsup and ketchup...I'm William Freakin Wallace!!111 FREEEDOMZZ!!11' . (If I'm reading your point correctly that is).

AFAIK, someone who is a USofArican, is pretty free to leave their state, or country if they feel they want to. I don't mean in it in the way of 'Don't like 'Murrica? Then GTFO you traitor! Jose' Can you see!!111 By the Swan's early flight!111'

I'm also not saying they are entitled to a free airplane ticket to Jamaica, with a paid for and fully staffed, beachfront mansion waiting for them when they arrive.

I will say, that if a US citizen wishes to leave the country permanently, hell even renounce US citizenship. Unless they are a criminal fugitive or something. The things you need are the physical ability, the money to do so, a form of transportation, and a destination willing to accept you.

What you will not have, unless you are a criminal on the lam, are people actively blocking your way. I have yet to see throngs of bourgeoise blocking the airport or bus terminals, from the exodus of brilliant marxist scholars. I have yet to see big bad gov't agents preventing liberty loving rand evangelists from booking a one way trip out of the USA.

You can certainly say, what kind of a freedom is that? The ability to leave? Well it may not sound very impressive to some. But I'd bet it looks incredible to someone born in N. Korea as a non military elite, at the time of this writing. Oh right. N. Korea is perhaps not a 'true communist state' according to some. It's a military dictatorship. The commie thing is just a misnomer. Probably put there by the bourgeois.

Maybe they can go there and teach the proles, on what it means to be a true communista. They can certainly use the expertise of a -true- marxist de sade', to teach them the true meaning of True Communism.

So what cola *is* available in Cuba? I've been to only one "Communist" country, and the cola there was pretty bad. Reminds me of the movie 1,2,3.

I never tasted a Cuban Cola myself. Though theoretically since Canada does have trading relations with Cuba, it might be possible to buy one. If nothing else to satisfy one's curiosity.

Though at the moment, things may not be as warm as Cuba's beaches.
http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2013/0...egins.html

But on a more serious note. The main difference between most North American Cola and everywhere else seems to be corn syrup vs cane syrup. Now I tasted kosher coke once, and some various non 'merkin colas. And maybe I don't have enough tastebud sensitivity, but I couldn't really say for sure if I remembered any major difference.

I'm not a big cola drinker nowadays, though I'm not a teetotaler about it. I still like ginger ale, and I find just plain club soda with ice to be a nice palate cleanser sometimes.

[kandrathe]

Anyway, if communism were a pig, it would feel like this...

[Hammerskjold]

Anyway, if communism were a pig, it would feel like this...

Is that Snowball, or Napoleon? If it's the former, it's obviously proof of the corrupt decadence of a treacherous borgeoise. If it's the latter, well der great leader deserves a good massage for all his hard work.

[eppie]

Anyway, if communism were a pig, it would feel like this...

Is that Snowball, or Napoleon? If it's the former, it's obviously proof of the corrupt decadence of a treacherous borgeoise. If it's the latter, well der great leader deserves a good massage for all his hard work.

I was looking for an old thread in which I could add a comment on todays news about the NSA knowing everything we do. Exactly what Orwell meant in 1984.
And this points back at my comment (I believe in this thread) about it being worse to live in a country where you think you are free because you can vote for two parties without anyone hassling you about it then living in a country that puts away political prisoners. At least in the latter you know what you are up against, and the world will support you.

No secret service in Russia, China, Nazi Germany, North Korea, has ever done what the NSA is doing. Of course the NSA is much smarter than those other losers.......no reason for Draconian measures of putting away political prisoners or physically eliminating people.....these guys do everything a lot more sophisticated.

Of course I fully agree with the fact that being 'eliminated' without you really knowing it is much less painful than the physical one.

[Hammerskjold]

I was looking for an old thread in which I could add a comment on todays news about the NSA knowing everything we do. Exactly what Orwell meant in 1984.

Are you talking about something like this?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2013/...-fisa.html

Though one tidbit kinda made me chuckle\shake my head, then again it's coming from the usual suspect. Leave it to someone like Lindsey Graham to basically say, 'if you're not a terrrist, you got nothing to hide'.

Oh Lindsey Graham...why are there so many clones of you?

The surveillance powers are granted under the post-9/11 Patriot Act, which was renewed in 2006 and again in 2011. Republicans who usually don't miss a chance to criticize the administration offered full support.

"I'm a Verizon customer. I could care less if they're looking at my phone records. ... If you're not getting a call from a terrorist organization, you got nothing to worry about," said Sen. Lindsey Graham, a Republican from South Carolina.

Though what's potentially more disturbing, is nowadays that may not even raise an eyebrow.

At least in the latter you know what you are up against, and the world will support you.

On that, I'm not entirely sure I can agree, as much as I would like to. 'Moral' support and pretty words only goes so far. Aside from a real dilemma of what's helping vs violating another country's sovereignty. 'Hey firemen don't violate a house-owner sovereignty when they break in doors and put out fires'. Who wants to\can be the world's firemen?

Forget 'global cop', we now live in a world where some people shoot at literal firemen.

Of course I fully agree with the fact that being 'eliminated' without you really knowing it is much less painful than the physical one.

Yes. I think the vision of our near future (parts of it has already arrived in some places) is not necessarily either or, Orwellian or Huxlean.

Personally, I think from what I've seen, it's a melding of the two.

No need to break bones to get you to embrace Big Brother, when you can pacify someone with bread and circuses. Besides, you can always do 'extraordinary rendition' if you want to actually break bones. You know, outsourcing.

[kandrathe]

“Now I will tell you the answer to my question. It is this. The Party seeks power entirely for its own sake. We are not interested in the good of others; we are interested solely in power, pure power. What pure power means you will understand presently. We are different from the oligarchies of the past in that we know what we are doing. All the others, even those who resembled ourselves, were cowards and hypocrites. The German Nazis and the Russian Communists came very close to us in their methods, but they never had the courage to recognize their own motives. They pretended, perhaps they even believed, that they had seized power unwillingly and for a limited time, and that just around the corner there lay a paradise where human beings would be free and equal. We are not like that. We know what no one ever seizes power with the intention of relinquishing it. Power is not a means; it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now you begin to understand me.”
― George Orwell, 1984

Or was it...

“If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face—for ever.”
― George Orwell, 1984

[Hammerskjold]

...
― George Orwell, 1984

Yep. Increasingly however, I think it's no longer Orwell vs Huxley. It looks more and more like it's Orwell, -and- Huxley.

http://www.thecitrusreport.com/2011/head...nd-orwell/


Closer to my neck of the woods, but shows that it's not just about the USofA.


http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2013/0...hs_in.html

Now to be clear, I don't care what people watch\do\play in their own free time. It's -their- time, their business.

I do however, start to wonder when things like news programs starts morphing into Entertainment Tonight. I'm not expecting a hard hitting investigative journo piece on every single channel.

But it becomes un-nerving when I see increase coverage ratio of Kardashian in the news. I used to say that to get the most meaning out of the jokes on The Daily Show\Colbert Report, you had to watch the news as well.

Nowadays, I have a hard time seriously saying the last part. It's closer to, watch TDS\Colbert for the satire, watch the news for the joke. Except that I think the joke is ultimately on all of us.

(edit for image link)