Any Sports Fans here on the Lounge?

[shoju]

I'm sure I've probably asked this before, but I'm asking again, mainly, because I want to steer away from the Fiscal Cliff talk, as I fall.. asle.. sorry, I nodded off there.

Anyway, Recently The Front Office Stooge of the Cleveland Indians told a Season Ticket Holder that if his only reason for buying Season Tickets was to see the Indians win, he shouldn't come to games.

Now, on one hand, i get the "Ambiance" argument for going to a game. Going to a game is an experience.

But on the other hand, Most Season Ticket Holders are dropping down somewhere between 1500 and 3k for season ticket(s) to an indians game. That's a hefty investment into a "team", and the comments are coming from a man who harps about how "Small Market" the Indians are. To a lot of fans, myself included, it took the idea that the Indians care more about the "Experience" of going to the park, than they do about getting to witness the team win.

And by win, we Indians fans aren't talking games. We're talking about winning, going to the post season.

The idea that he would even then go on to defend his comments, is just... well, it's not playing out well here. Cleveland Sports Fans are a die hard bunch, but the new ownership of the Indians isn't doing much to keep them fans. If you go to a game, you'll probably get some free giveaway at the gate, and if you go to a weekend homestand, you will see some of the most impressive fireworks after the game that you will ever see.

But as far as an on the field product? It's lacking. The business model that they have clung so desperately to, also, is starting to show signs of "not being right". The Indians rank as the 21st market by size (out of 30) in Baseball. Recently, 3 teams in smaller markets have shown that the Cleveland idea of not being able to retain talent, and that you can't sign monster contracts just isn't true.

The Tampa Bay Rays, which I have a fascination from in many facets, not just as a normal fan, are proving it wrong. They are in the 28th market by size, and this week, just inked one of their home grown stars to a contract that will (barring trade) make him a Ray for the rest of his career. The price tag? 100+ Million, and he's signed until 2021.

The Milwaukee Brewers, the are just one spot better than the rays at #27, and have inked their homegrown star, Ryan Braun (lets leave the PED discussion out of this) through 2020.

The Cincinnati Reds, #26, have their star first baseman inked through 2021 as well.

And none of these teams are handcuffed by the deals, and are added young, star talent around them. Of course, none of them are able to keep talent long term, but they are able to build a nucleus, and work with that, shedding what they can, keeping what is possible, and competing.

These teams are in smaller markets, signing and retaining their stars, and being competitive. Indians fans know we aren't going to see a "dynasty" like the Yankees. We know that. We're ok with that. BUt to see the team with their head in the sand, and telling their fans that it needs to be about more than just winning. I would love to talk to Herm Edwards about that.

The remarks, were one thing, and if he had backed away from them, I wouldn't have such ire, but with his defense of them, I'm just left feeling like... Why bother? Why should I bother to take my kids to the game? Why should I continue to support and be a fan of an organization that is woefully behind the times?

Like I said, I like the Rays, I can catch their games on ESPN/FOX/and when they play the Indians. I was in Tampa visiting Family when they started out their first year, and that left me with a... "bond" so to speak for the team. I've enjoyed watching them since. Not just for their on the field deicisions that have kept them competitive with two teams that have noticeably larger payrolls, and markets (NY and Bos), but everything about their organization. They have the best Social Media Department of ANY Professional Sports team (at least in the US), they have great ethics, They have a great attitude, They get it. They have put into place a team and an organization that maximizes everything they can. I find myself more interested by them than Cleveland anymore.

This coming on the heels of their FANTASTIC managerial hire. I just feel like this move cut the legs right out from under him.

The article also talks about the grumblings the Indians have for why the Browns get a "free pass". Which, if they really believe that, they aren't paying attention. Browns fans are a loyal rabid bunch, but if the Tribe thinks we are all sitting around and singing kum ba yah about their woes, they look more like these three



Than we feared. I mean, Browns fans are so irritable about the team, that on Twitter, there is a hugely successful "Fake Pat Shurmur" account that lampoons the coach, and the hashtag #shurmured, where we vent our frustrations over the way the games go.

The problem that the Indians have when compared to the browns is two fold.

1.) We can't blame the browns not competing on small market. There is a salary cap in football, and also a salary minimum. This make the chance for parity in the league greater, and takes away the crutch the Indians have been using. WE just have to blame our poor performances on what it really is: Bad Ownership, Bad Coaching, Bad Recruitng, and poor performance.

2.) The Browns play 8 regular season, and 2 preseason home games a year. Those 8 regular season games are a REAL experience. From tailgating, to the game, to the dawg pound, to the after game nightlife, it's just not the same kind of experience that you can create 81 times a year. So some of the ambiance and revelry, and "mystique" of the game dies off a little when it is so diluted.

Anyway, I'm rambling. Really, I'm just trying to find out if other people think that Shapiro's comments were as dumb, stupid, idiotic, misinformed, missing the boat, and terrible as what I, and many fans think they were.

[Kevin]

I'm with you on the idiocy of the comments. When I first heard about it, I assumed it was something taken out of context, but it really wasn't. As you say, in baseball, the playing field isn't level, there are real challenges based on market, and the Indians market is small, and the "Browns effect" is real, other cities feel it in different ways too. St. Louis is opposite, the Rams have to deal with the "Cardinals Effect", St. Louis is a "baseball town", Cleveland is a "football town". Yes both are big enough to support both, but for whatever reason (and they can generally be traced if you really want to, but that isn't important) people who are sports fans in those cities favor one sport over the other, so the ups and downs are easier to ride out.

Like you say the Rays are handling the differences well. The Oakland A's do a good job for a small market team as well, heck that's what the movie Moneyball is about. Free agency has a much larger effect in baseball than any other sport because so much of the game is individual performance. It's a team game but the interdependence on the other players is much smaller. This of course can be part of the draw of baseball, the numerous one on one battles that occur during a game. Football is on the other end of that spectrum, where a single players performance is heavily influenced by other players, in some cases 21 other players can have a direct impact on a play, not just a tangential impact. That of course is part of the draw of football even if people don't recognize it. The big exception in football is that with the way rule changes have lead the game, a great QB has a disproportional impact on the outcome of a game. You don't have to have a great QB, but a great QB makes winning consistently easier to do than a great player at any other position.

The way a small market (or more accurately a small revenue because market size is not the only impact on revenue) baseball can have success is spending bigger on the little things. Devote more of your budget to scouting and coaching to maximize the return you get from each player because you can't afford to pay big and miss in the same way. You can look at how the Rays and Marlins built their organizations, invest in the farm system and the player development pipeline, pay a few players, trade for young talent when you know you will lose the contract. Easier said than done and you still can't always outspend in the little areas, but one of the reasons I think St. Louis, a mid market team, is arguably the Yankees of the NL when it comes to sustained team success is that used to pay their good scouts and coaches more than other teams, even if they didn't always pay the big player contracts.

I grew up a Cubs fan, my grandparents were huge fans, from the ages of 5 to 16 they would take us to at least one game a year, even though we lived about 4 hours from Chicago. It was usually done as a summer camping trip. But I've been to quite a few games in Wrigley, we also ended up going to the old Busch Stadium in St. Louis in 84 and got to seem the clinch the pennant. I was at one of the few games that Greg Maddux was ever ejected from at Wrigley. But I've been in MO for the last 19 years now and constantly seeing how the Cardinals, in a smaller market than Chicago, did business vs what the Cubs did. I finally gave up on the Cubs and really baseball in general. I do actually follow the Cards pretty casually now. But I actually viewed being a Cubs fan like a disease. There was no logical reason to be a fan, and being a fan had more negative affects than positive on a person. But people kept going to the games even during the 50-60 win seasons, so why did ownership care, The Tribune Company who owned them from 81 till 07 (most of my life) really didn't care. They said similar things to Shapiro at times, it wasn't in their best interest to worry about the players on the field etc. The Cubs might turn it around the Rickett's family seems to want to have a winning product, but I no longer care and my life is better for it.

[DeeBye]

The Toronto Maple Leafs are the most valuable NHL franchise and recently became the first team worth more than $1 billion. They are also the most expensive team to go see in terms of ticket prices, parking, beer, etc.

The Maple Leafs haven't won the Stanley Cup since 1967. They haven't even made the playoffs since the 2003-2004 season. Judging by their current roster and the state of their farm team, they really don't have any chance of being even remotely successful in the near future.

I have a closet full of Leafs jerseys.

[shoju]

I wont lie, my cynicism probably lies in my never having seen a team that I root for win it all. I started out as a lover of baseball, and up until my favorite player in the world wrote a tell all book and outed the sport, It was my favorite thing. Even when he did it, at first I was thinking "Oh Jose, YOU SO CRAZY!"

But then, one by one, the dominoes fell, and Jose wasn't crazy. Roids were everywhere. It made me cringe.

I had a passing love affair with the Browns. My dad turned me into a football fan as a kid. It just didn't stick. Probably because my first season as a football fan was "The Drive", and then crushed further by "The Fumble". I sort of gave up on football until this smarmy head coach showed up, and turned the browns into something to watch again. We never knew he would become known as "The Hoodie", we just knew he had out team playing, and playing HARD. His record in Cleveland pales in comparison to the excitement we felt during those first two seasons, and then that amazing season we put together and made the playoffs.

And then my football love took a shot in the giblets. Art Modell moved my team. I was just falling in love with them all over again as a teenager, and he took them. It was ok though, I still had the winning Indians to keep me company. Then the Browns came back, and I fell back in love with football, and the love has grown, at the same time that my love of baseball has shriveled. Honestly, if I didn't have such adoration for the Rays as an organization (and kudos for picking up on Oakland, I had sort of forgot about them in the mix) I probably wouldn't follow them.

But in this ever growing Social Media driven World, the Rays are doing more to earn my "love" than any other team that I have followed on Social Media. I've never been a Cavs fan "For real" (dad tried, but when Jordan sank the Cavs with that memorable shot, I just couldn't bother to love them. We're acquaintances at best ) but I followed them on social media until "The Decision" and Dan Gilbert's Comic Sans tirade. I Follow the Indians, The Browns, The Colts (and then the Broncos, as my wife and I are HUGE Peyton Fans), and The Hanshin Tigers from Japan. (A schoolmate of mine pitche(s/d) for them)

NO TEAM that I have followed has kept me entertained, up to date, and "a part" of the fan experience as the Tampa Bay Rays. I swear, if I got offered a job in their social media department, my wife, kids, and I would be on the next plane to Tampa.

They do even more than the Browns, who don't have a bad department, just.... a "dumb" one at times (queue the jokes about wanting to give away white flags at the Steelers game). For me, I'm equally fascinated by the front office, as I am the Team. That's weird. But if it weren't for The Rays, and my buddy pitching for the Hanshin Tigers I probably would have given up baseball by now. Kevin's right, sometimes, being a fan of a team is more harmful to a person than not. I'm at that point with the Indians. I had hoped that they had turned the corner with the hiring of Francona, but now, this really just feels like a dog and pony show. Roll out the new World Series Winning Manager, and then when we don't win, blame it on the small market again!

He's also right about the Browns. Northern Ohio is a football kind of area. The weather lends itself to the sport more than baseball, the Browns have a great rich history, even if it feels so distant now. The Browns and their colors, and the attitudes of the players, have lent itself to the region. Gritty, Hard Nosed Football, with running backs and defense have been the hallmarks of the team. It fits in with the gritty hard nosed life of the steelbelt, and manufacturing areas of the state found in the north.

The Indians will never be "the king" of the city. Sure, if they won, it would be HUGE, and the people who won it would be the princes of the town, but lets be hypothetical. Say in 2014, The Tribe wins it all in November. Then, in Feb of 2015, just a few months later, The Browns win the Super Bowl. You know what party will be bigger? The Browns. And it wont be because "it's two championships!" It will be because the Browns are the love of the region. They boast the largest fan club for any american team, and used to be the biggest fan club in the world, though I think a Euro Soccer team has passed them up now.

I watched.... around 30 baseball games this season. None of them were because it was "The Tribe Playing" They were Rays Games, they were "Dude turn it on, someone is doing something AMAZING" moments, or because there just was nothing else on.

This year, I know I've watched 30+ Football games. Every Browns Game (with twitter and FakePat keeping me company) and then a smattering of Broncos games, and then Sunday and Monday Nighters. That's over the span of 12 weeks.

This season, with the Indians, i'll probably keep tabs from a far, but the organization is losing me, if it already hasn't completely lost me.

I dont' know much about hockey, so I wont comment too heavily on deebye's post (sorry). But I will say, my sister sent me to a BlueJackets Game this season with my 2 boys and my dad. We sat here:




It was a great time. We didn't know any of the rules, but we had a blast. It's a shame that the Blue Jackets suck. Great Venue, Good time.

[Kevin]

I graduated high school in 93, I grew up in Wisconsin, I was conflicted Packers fan because the Chicago Bears had their training camp in the town I grew up in, from 84 to 2001. I worked for them a couple of summers ( 91 - 94), both my older brothers worked for them during the summers too. We were family friends with the man who was the big reason they came to Platteville. Walter Payton was in my living room when I was a little kid (I believe it was in 86 so I would have been 11). I bruised my chest catching a pass from Jim McMahon. I helped Mike Singletary pay a practical joke on a fan. I made $100 when I was working the parking lot one day when it was raining and some drunk guys in a van said "Hey I'll give you $100 if you let us park in front of that limo!" The limo had Virginia, and several other, McCaskey's in it. I took the money, and as they were moving to park I walked over the police officer and said the guys in that van had open alcohol, which was not allowed, and I thought the driver was drunk. The police officer moved the van, I kept the money. I got to witness another family friend, a police officer, pull over Jim McMahon in his Ferrari for running a red light, and when Jim yelled "Do you know who I am?" hear Bill reply "Yes, you're Jim McMahon, and you ran that red light." So I was a Bears fan, I got to watch them win the Super Bowl with that insanely good defense, I got first hand access to the players.

I should have stayed a Bears fan, the Packers stunk back then, but my Dad was a Packer's fan (despite having grown up in Illinois) which kept dragging me back the other way. The there were the Bears <b>fans</b> that I also got to have a lot of interaction and they are the big reason that I just couldn't keep following the team. The arrogance they often displayed, the vandalism against the people who displayed their Packer's loyalty. I got spit on by one of them once after they asked for directions to the practices and for some reason they didn't like the directions I gave them. I don't fully recall what they said but it was something like "I was over there already you ignorant hick." followed by the big gob. I'm aware that every team has fans like this, but I was young, and it left a very bad taste.

So I followed the Packers, even as I drew a paycheck from the Bears some summers, and during high school they were turning it around. The Don "Magic" Majkowski at QB, Ron Wolf coming in as GM, Mike Holmgren, and then Majkowski gets hurt and some kid wearing #4 starts playing. They were fun to watch. The front office was keeping on their promises to bring the Lombardi trophy home, then Reggie White signs, Desmond Howard shows up and makes the special teams a weapon (though White should have gotten Super Bowl MVP) and they make good on it. I've had it good with them. My older brother is still a big Bears fan, during the 85 training camp, he was a 12 year old kid with a football, he got pretty much the whole teams signatures, I'm not sure what the ball is worth now... We have a lot of fun with the rivalry now too, even if I generally get the better of it. Though I did have the Mike Sherman as GM years, fortunately Mark Murphy, the team president, admitted that was a mistake to give him both jobs.

I'm not a big basketball fan in general, though I do follow the Wisconsin Badgers, though that is mostly because of their coach, Bo Ryan. I went to high school with his kids, I got to watch him bring 4 Division 3 National Championships to our little town, and Dad and I would go to the games from time to time. So I will watch the Badgers on ESPN from time to time and follow them in the NCAA tourney. But I'm not a big fan.

Never got too much into hockey, but did get to go to a Badger's games in the early 90's and it was awesome. It's a really bad TV sport though, but it's awesome in person (just like baseball is way better in person, and football might be better on TV).

So that is some of my fandom history.


Since you expanded on the football vs baseball town. I was in Missouri for the Greatest Show on turf, they did win a Super Bowl for St. Louis in 2000 (after the 99 season) and the town was rockin, but they were much more excited in 04 even though the Cardinals lost the World Series that year, and 06 was nuts. Heck I think the sports hierarchy in that town goes Cardinals > Blues > Rams, and while the Blues had a 25 year streak of making the playoffs they never got past the 2nd round. The Rams made two Super Bowls in 3 years and didn't "move the needle" as much.

Historic performance plays a part. Only one team has more World Series wins than the Cardinals, the Yankees, and anyone with even a passing knowledge of baseball tends to know about the Yankees. The Giants have been to more (thanks to beating the Cardinals out to go this year) but the Cardinals have been good consistently. I think 17 years (46 to 64) is the longest stretch they've gone without making a WS appearance, but they still had good teams during that stretch. Winning creates young fans and keeps older ones interested and hence loyal. They have lost football teams before (the Cardinals), so even with good teams at times it just isn't the same. They still sold out most of the Rams game though, even with awful records, but it's not what the baseball team brings.



So yeah if you can't tell, I can wall of text about sports too.

[Occhidiangela]

I am a Dallas Cowboys fan, since about 1966 when I first saw a game on TV. My brother was rooting for a team in the darker jerseys(B & W TV) so I rooted for the other team.

Dallas Cowboys. I saw the Ice Bowl game, missed the Cowboys first two super bowls, (loss to Colts, Win over Dolphins) and have followed the Roller Coaster ever since.

I had a good friend back in the 80's from Cleveland who was a huge Browns fan, back in the days of Brian Sipe as QB, and then Bernie Kosar. Ken played semi pro baseball for a few years before he joined the Navy (we flew together) and he was thus also a massive Cleveland Indians fan.

I am sure he'd empathize with you, shoju, on the bizarre steps management takes and makes.

As to owners and buffoons, you'd be hard pressed to top Jerry Jones and his ability to take the "America's Team" franchise and return it to mediocrity, now that Jimmy Johnson is gone and he couldn't keep Parcells around.

[LochnarITB]

I saw the title mention sports and was excited. However, as I tried to read through some of the WoT, I never found a single mention of Golf (otherwise known as TOAOS - the one and only sport). I'm going to have to ask that the discussion be turned to TOAOS, or the title be changed to "Any Big Money Big Business Playtime Fans here on the Lounge?". To do any less will be considered false advertising and be brought to the attention of the Better Business Bureau.


(Lifelong golf fan, who played whenever he could until he could no longer walk a course, but still watches and dreams of the day he can once again spend wonderful days chasing a small white ball around beautiful golf courses)

[ryan4nayr]

LochnarITB, there is (an ignored) history of golfing in Ohio. There is even a Jack Nicklaus museum here in Columbus. I would have to plead ignorance about the sport and that museum however.

Shoju, I read about those comments and even I, non-fan that I am, had to raise my eyebrows. Digressing a little, I took pre-season Browns tickets from a boss this year and my experience was lackluster. Their performance was even less memorable. Granted it was pre-season, but still, at least pretend to try to win? If my boss offers tickets again, I doubt I'll take them even free because the "experience" wasn't worth the 2.5 hour drive. I had 5 hours to wonder if the baseball games were any better.

It's no wonder craft beers are so rabidly popular around here. What else would disgruntled fans do?

[Taem]

As to owners and buffoons, you'd be hard pressed to top Jerry Jones and his ability to take the "America's Team" franchise and return it to mediocrity, now that Jimmy Johnson is gone and he couldn't keep Parcells around.

Maybe, but they have one hell of a TV in the Cowboys Stadium.

[shoju]

Loch,

I love Golf. I used to gold a lot, and was actually involved with the Lake Erie Junior PGA as a Teen. I used to be able to hold my own, but time and kids have sapped most of my golf time.

The Browns are teasing me with these back to back wins. They really are.

But the indians? Not a word has come out of the Tribe Camp as Winter Meetings are set to begin, and Free Agents are falling into place. I guess it's another season of scraping the bottom of the barrel or a moldy breadcrumb after the "Rich guys" eat all the food.

Pre-Season Football is AWFUL. What makes it even worse, is that those tickets your boss gave you, are the same price as regular season tickets. Couple that with the new NFL Rules about Practice, and the Pre-season is just a glorified scrimmage played in a really big stadium. The play is awful, the players aren't playing hard, because they are still trying to get back into shape, and we are left with something that is wholly unwatchable, unless you are at home, and watching Bernie Kosar get drunk throughout the game while trying to announce it.

He starts less than articulate, and by the end of the 4th quarter, he is damn near impossible to understand. Man I wish we'd stop "Doing him a Solid" and giving him something to do. And if I ever see him wear that Super Bowl Ring again, I might just shut it off. Ugh.

[Occhidiangela]

Lochnar.

If Tiger even gets half of his old putting skills back, he's goona PWN this year.
I saw a lot of this weekend's tournament. If he could have putted, he'd have won.

[LochnarITB]

Lochnar.

If Tiger even gets half of his old putting skills back, he's goona PWN this year. I saw a lot of this weekend's tournament. If he could have putted, he'd have won.

Agreed. He had some of the most precise shots to the green I've ever seen him hit. In his first few years, I was hoping they would pay him to go away. He was destroying all comers and the contest was becoming for second. With his personal issues under a microscope, and his injuries and surgeries, he was so beaten down I finally felt sorry for him and I can now root for him to get back his glory.

[Nomad25055]

Greetings. I'm a Formula 1 fan. Unfortunately the sport is in decline even though it is growing. FIA and FOM seem to be crushing the innovation of F1 (perhaps the greatest aspect) more and more. F1 will quickly become just another spec series at this rate I'm afraid. For example double diffusers and exhaust blown diffusers were banned after one season. More rules are added and more rules are modified each season. The politics are enough to drive a person mad. Who has influence, who's hand is in who's wallet, some incidents go unnoticed while others are severely punished etc. Trying to make the sport more exciting is having the opposite effect. Tyres this year were ridiculous, they were basically bubblegum and it took teams almost half the season to understand them (operating window, degradation, etc.). DRS is laughable. DRS or Drag Reduction System, is a flap on the wing that opens and reduces downforce and drag to increase straight line speed. If a car is within 1 second of the car ahead going through a detection zone then they are allowed to activate DRS in designated zones. The best part is, there is no refueling anymore. It's understandable, considering exhaust temperatures are over 4000F lol. But the result is this, between the new tyres and the lack of refueling, most of each race is tyre and fuel management, which means they aren't exactly racing most of the time. The pinnacle of motorsports is dying in my opinion. But I digress. I still love F1 and always will. For those interested, Speed will no longer host F1. NBC bought the rights this year so it will most likely be on NBC sports. I hear that FOX wants to turn Speed into stick and ball sports, but that's just rumor afaik. Check out www.f1technical.net, there are actual F1 insiders there in addition to enthusiasts. It's an amazing site full of information and discussion about all things F1.




Cheers, Nomad

[eppie]

Greetings. I'm a Formula 1 fan. Cheers, Nomad

I find it hilarious that Michael Schumacher earned around 20 miljon dollars per year (wages so not from commercials) and now that he drives for another team he doesn't win anymore.
Well I guess it is all just a question of a big viewers market and less people to divide the pie compared to e.g. football or basketball.

F1 is to me not really a sport. More entertainment (not for me because I find it boring).
Although I appreciate the difficulty of driving a car at such a speed, I have some issues with calling it motor 'sports'.

[shoju]

I used to love F1 racing as well. Like you, I have felt that it has really been hurt in recent years by the politics. I bet it's been 4-5 years since I actually watched a race

[Kevin]

Yeah, they seem to be taking some of the worst aspects of NASCAR, believing that since NASCAR grew after rules changes that F1 would too, but applying them all wrong.

I understand not wanting to have winners determined based on who has the best technology, and I understand wanting to make changes for safety, but some of these are things that can be seen before implementation that they will just make things worse.

NASCAR really did grow in popularity, in part, because they did manage to make things more about driver skill than crew competence or better technology, and they did make things safer, even if they were too slow to adopt some things. I didn't follow F1 as closely, but I did appreciate that it was more than just turn left, and the speed and power of those cars was great to watch. I loved the Top Gear episode where Hammond had issues just getting the thing into gear because of how precise you have to be because of how fine tuned the set-ups are.

As to if it's a "sport" or not, I'm not too bothered by that. I think it is. While it requires a small set of athletic skills than other sports (namely it doesn't require certainly levels of strength or speed that most others do) it does still need reflexes, endurance, coordination. I also consider that a sport requires a participant to have a direct impact on how another participant performs. This happens in motor sport, what the other drivers do, impacts what every other driver can do.

This is also why I don't take offense at people saying swimming, track and field, and golf are not sports. While where you place is impacted that isn't a direct impact on how you perform. Michael Phelps could set a world record in an empty pool; Tiger Woods could shoot 15 under par on the course by himself; Usain Bolt could run faster than everyone else on a 30 lane track or a 1 lane track. So calling them athletic competitions is fine by me. In baseball, one of the least "athletic" of the major sports, a hit is determined by interactions between pitcher - batter and then batter - fielder. So drag racing is motorized athletic competition, but the Indy 500 is a motorized sporting event.

I also acknowledge that the competition aspect often improves performance too, that it's much harder to perform your best by yourself. This bears out in psychology where it's been shown that just about anything that someone is expert at (well practiced, full understanding of) sees a performance increase in a competitive setting, and things where a person isn't expert or well practiced tend to perform worse in a competitive setting.

No I don't really bother with all of that, I call golf, swimming, and track and field sports, but when it comes down to quibbles that is how I would draw my line if it mattered.

[NuurAbSaal]

Australian Rules Football. Best show on earth, and a blast to play. Not the most healthy of sports, but that's the case with most sports I find interesting or enjoy playing/participating in. If there's not some form of contact between players, something's missing. I guess I have a bit of redneck in me .

take care
Tarabulus

[Nomad25055]

Greetings. I'm a Formula 1 fan. Cheers, Nomad

I find it hilarious that Michael Schumacher earned around 20 miljon dollars per year (wages so not from commercials) and now that he drives for another team he doesn't win anymore.
Well I guess it is all just a question of a big viewers market and less people to divide the pie compared to e.g. football or basketball.

F1 is to me not really a sport. More entertainment (not for me because I find it boring).
Although I appreciate the difficulty of driving a car at such a speed, I have some issues with calling it motor 'sports'.

Different strokes haha. MSC actually retired again this year. Mercedes signed Hamilton and gave MSC the boot because he waited too long to sign a new contract. Fans left when he left the first time, some came back, they will leave again.

Cheers, Nomad

[eppie]

Australian Rules Football. Best show on earth, and a blast to play. Not the most healthy of sports, but that's the case with most sports I find interesting or enjoy playing/participating in. If there's not some form of contact between players, something's missing. I guess I have a bit of redneck in me .

take care
Tarabulus

Lots of people (not you nuur, just in general) look down on american football and say: ' rugby, or gaelic footbal or australian football are real tough sports'. Of course in American Football players wear lots of protection, but if you see with which speeds and force people are tackled sometimes, you can really see why they need to wear protection.

[NuurAbSaal]

Australian Rules Football. Best show on earth, and a blast to play. Not the most healthy of sports, but that's the case with most sports I find interesting or enjoy playing/participating in. If there's not some form of contact between players, something's missing. I guess I have a bit of redneck in me .

take care
Tarabulus

Lots of people (not you nuur, just in general) look down on american football and say: ' rugby, or gaelic footbal or australian football are real tough sports'. Of course in American Football players were lots of protection, but if you see with which speeds and force people are tackled sometimes, you can really see why they need to wear protection.

I really enjoy watching American Football. I'd just rather be playing Aussie Rules. They are fundamentally different and I'd wager that you need to understand quite a bit about American Football to really appreciate the game.

take care
Tarabulus